Millennium Line - Broadway Extension: Planning & Pre-Construction

[flight_from_kamakura]

^ hah, well said.

[metroXpress]

It would be great if the line gets done in stages and some parts would open while others are still under constructions. I'd like to see them do it like this:

Phase One : VCC --> Broadway-City Hall
Phase Two : Broadway-City Hall--> Arbutus
Phase Three: Arbutus--> Alma
Phase Four: Alma --> UBC

Platform to platform transfers are certainly the most logical design for a busy transportation hub.
It makes no sense, like it is now at Waterfront station, to exit the fare paid zone for transferring to Canada Line

[mrjauk]

Originally Posted by Allen

It would be great if the line gets done in stages and some parts would open while others are still under constructions. I'd like to see them do it like this:

Phase One : VCC --> Broadway-City Hall
Phase Two : Broadway-City Hall--> Arbutus
Phase Three: Arbutus--> UBC

Platform to platform transfers are certainly the most logical design for a busy transportation hub.
It makes no sense, like it is now at Waterfront station, to exit the fare paid zone for transferring to Canada Line

I fixed it for you. I could live with this being built in phases. I hope that the VCC-Cambie/Broadway portion is done in conjunction with the Evergreen line.

[mr.x]

^ at this point, I think we'd be lucky to have even one of them (Evergreen or UBC) completed over the next 10 years.

[mr.x]

Single-use drills to cost TTC $58M
Hefty price tag for new tunnel-boring machines needed to finish Spadina-York Region line on time

22 July 2009
The Toronto Star

The TTC plans to spend $58 million on four giant tunnel-boring machines that will be used only once - to dig a 13.5-kilometre twin tunnel as part of the Spadina subway extension to York Region.

City councillors who sit on the Toronto Transit Commission approved the expense July 10, but only after questioning the number of machines.

The machines will be custom-built by Lovat Inc., which bid about $555,000 less than a competitor. The same company sold the TTC two similar machines for $15 million to tunnel the Sheppard subway about six kilometres between Yonge St. and Don Mills Rd.

The TTC sold the Sheppard machines to two construction companies in Russia for $2.5 million each once the line was complete. Nicknamed Rock and Roll, each weighed about 235 tonnes and could drill through about 15.7 metres of ground in eight hours.

Here are some answers transit commissioners got from TTC staff on the purchase:

Q: Would the machines used on Sheppard have worked on the Spadina extension?

A: No. The newer machines are more technologically advanced and work faster and more efficiently. They're a relatively minor part of the total construction cost of about $400 million, according to Andy Bertolo, project manager of the York-Spadina subway.

Also, the Sheppard tunnel was 5.2 metres wide. The new machines will build a 5.4-metre tunnel to accommodate a sharper curve on Spadina and new fire protection standards that require wider train walkways, he said.

Q: Couldn't the TTC buy second-hand tunnel boring machines?

A: "We have not found suitable machines in this diameter," said Bertolo.

Q: How much could the TTC recoup on its investment if it resold the machines?

A: Not more than 30 per cent.

Q: When will the machines arrive?

A: The first pair arrive in October 2010. "Machines of this type take a long period to manufacture," Bertolo said.

Q: Couldn't the TTC work with fewer machines?

A: One less machine would extend the construction schedule by five months over the anticipated 2015 completion date, according to Bertolo.

Q: Why can't the same machines be used on the new Transit City lines, including a 10-kilometre tunnel planned for the Eglinton Crosstown line?

A: The TTC doesn't yet know how wide the Transit City tunnels will be because it hasn't been decided which cars will run on those lines.

The TTC has commissioned Bombardier to build 204 light-rail vehicles (LRVs) to run on the 11 existing streetcar lines. That contract includes an option to build up to 368 more cars for Toronto's new Transit City lines, said Gary Webster, chief general manager of the TTC.

"Because (Metrolinx is) going to have involvement in all aspects of Transit City, including the car, the lines, the yards - they want to be satisfied that exercising the option from Bombardier is the right thing to do," he said.

The Transit City Eglinton Crosstown line will require 129 LRVs; the renovation of the Scarborough Rapid Transit will need 62; Finch West, 37 and Sheppard, 35.






Just some comparisons:
- VCC to UBC: 12-kms
- Spadina subway extenstion to York: 13.5-kms

Note, the Spadina extension will use 4 tunnel boring machines. If they use 3 machines, it'll take at least 5 months longer.

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by mr.x

Single-use drills to cost TTC $58M
Hefty price tag for new tunnel-boring machines needed to finish Spadina-York Region line on time

22 July 2009
The Toronto Star

The TTC plans to spend $58 million on four giant tunnel-boring machines that will be used only once - to dig a 13.5-kilometre twin tunnel as part of the Spadina subway extension to York Region.

City councillors who sit on the Toronto Transit Commission approved the expense July 10, but only after questioning the number of machines.

The machines will be custom-built by Lovat Inc., which bid about $555,000 less than a competitor. The same company sold the TTC two similar machines for $15 million to tunnel the Sheppard subway about six kilometres between Yonge St. and Don Mills Rd.

The TTC sold the Sheppard machines to two construction companies in Russia for $2.5 million each once the line was complete. Nicknamed Rock and Roll, each weighed about 235 tonnes and could drill through about 15.7 metres of ground in eight hours.

Here are some answers transit commissioners got from TTC staff on the purchase:

Q: Would the machines used on Sheppard have worked on the Spadina extension?

A: No. The newer machines are more technologically advanced and work faster and more efficiently. They're a relatively minor part of the total construction cost of about $400 million, according to Andy Bertolo, project manager of the York-Spadina subway.

Also, the Sheppard tunnel was 5.2 metres wide. The new machines will build a 5.4-metre tunnel to accommodate a sharper curve on Spadina and new fire protection standards that require wider train walkways, he said.

Q: Couldn't the TTC buy second-hand tunnel boring machines?

A: "We have not found suitable machines in this diameter," said Bertolo.

Q: How much could the TTC recoup on its investment if it resold the machines?

A: Not more than 30 per cent.

Q: When will the machines arrive?

A: The first pair arrive in October 2010. "Machines of this type take a long period to manufacture," Bertolo said.

Q: Couldn't the TTC work with fewer machines?

A: One less machine would extend the construction schedule by five months over the anticipated 2015 completion date, according to Bertolo.

Q: Why can't the same machines be used on the new Transit City lines, including a 10-kilometre tunnel planned for the Eglinton Crosstown line?

A: The TTC doesn't yet know how wide the Transit City tunnels will be because it hasn't been decided which cars will run on those lines.

The TTC has commissioned Bombardier to build 204 light-rail vehicles (LRVs) to run on the 11 existing streetcar lines. That contract includes an option to build up to 368 more cars for Toronto's new Transit City lines, said Gary Webster, chief general manager of the TTC.

"Because (Metrolinx is) going to have involvement in all aspects of Transit City, including the car, the lines, the yards - they want to be satisfied that exercising the option from Bombardier is the right thing to do," he said.

The Transit City Eglinton Crosstown line will require 129 LRVs; the renovation of the Scarborough Rapid Transit will need 62; Finch West, 37 and Sheppard, 35.






Just some comparisons:
- VCC to UBC: 12-kms
- Spadina subway extenstion to York: 13.5-kms

Note, the Spadina extension will use 4 tunnel boring machines. If they use 3 machines, it'll take at least 5 months longer.

What seemed to me like a Utopian dream just a few minutes ago, now seems like a plausible reality. Let's use our creative imaginations for a moment. The Millenium line continues west of VCC, stopping at Cambie (City Hall Station) then at Granville (Oak Street is possible, but highly questionable, given its proximity to the the other two) ..... then cut -and cover- to Burrard, Arbutus, MacDonald, Trafalgar, and to Alma. That's where the Point Grey escarpment begins, and where we use tunnel boring machines to drill tube lines to UBC.

Imagine UBC station; deep, modern, sleek, equipped with elevators and the most modern safety equipment.

Long escalators down to the platform area. We celebrate this engineering marvel by making it one of the most elegant stations in the world.

At Alma, buses fan out to serve the West Side. (not everybody out there is rich, especially the students living in basement suites and boarding houses) . . . down Dunbar, a circle line through Kits, perhaps a 41st avenue and 49th avenue bus connection, a route to tie into Kerrisdale . . . .

Underfround transit, whether LRT, or full-scale subway, is so much more attractive that surface technology, and doesn't hamper bus routes or cross-traffic. If Toronto can do it, we can do it. I'm talking, in a nutshell about extending the Millenium Line on a cut and-cover basis to Alma, the boring a tunnel under the Point Grey plateau.

It would be fast, efficient, and draw people from the eastern suburbs as well as just local West-Siders.

Too expensive? Unrealistic? Too futuristic? Let's stick with good ol' busses?
Sure, there will always be negativistic nay-sayers, or people who haven't travelled. Look at Copenhagen, Munich, Paris, Tokyo . . . . .

Try thinking of what this would mean to the city in 20 years.

Oh, and while you're at it, try thinking of what could be done with the Arbutus Corridor; nearly unused, except for the odd freight train, an empty right-of way unused . . . . any comments? Any suggestions? . . . .

[mr.x]

Originally Posted by trofirhen

What seemed to me like a Utopian dream just a few minutes ago, now seems like a plausible reality. Let's use our creative imaginations for a moment. The Millenium line continues west of VCC, stopping at Cambie (City Hall Station) then at Granville (Oak Street is possible, but highly questionable, given its proximity to the the other two) ..... then cut -and cover- to Burrard, Arbutus, MacDonald, Trafalgar, and to Alma. That's where the Point Grey escarpment begins, and where we use tunnel boring machines to drill tube lines to UBC.

It never was a utopian dream in the first place. A lot people simply don't know what the project would be like, as in the Vancouver Sun columnist that had a front page article about how the extension would start at City Hall instead of the Millennium Line's western terminus.

Stations:
- Finning
- Main/Kingsway
- Cambie
- Laurel/Oak (it's definitely needed for the Oak trolley connections and the massive hospital and medical campus)
- Granville
- Arbutus
- Macdonald
- Alma (Trafalgar isn't needed)
- Sasamat
- UBC (one station only, far too much money required for another station)

The stations parallel the existing 99 B-Line.

And it'll likely have to be a bored tunnel for the entire route up to Blanca to appease businesses and NIMBY residents, especially after Cambie construction. From Blanca to UBC, they can use cut and cover. As for the UBC station itself, it should be underground - an elevated station would be terrible right in the middle of campus.



Imagine UBC station; deep, modern, sleek, equipped with elevators and the most modern safety equipment.

Long escalators down to the platform area. We celebrate this engineering marvel by making it one of the most elegant stations in the world.[/quote]

As long as they use 80+ metre length platforms for all the stations.

For UBC station, it should be airy - lots of ceiling space, maybe like 30-feet ceilings with skylights atop bringing in a ton of daylight with art suspended atop.

Oh, and while you're at it, try thinking of what could be done with the Arbutus Corridor; nearly unused, except for the odd freight train, an empty right-of way unused . . . . any comments? Any suggestions? . . . .

The city has intentions to use it as a streetcar corridor in the future.

[deasine]

Originally Posted by mr.x

And it'll likely have to be a bored tunnel for the entire route up to Blanca to appease businesses and NIMBY residents, especially after Cambie construction. From Blanca to UBC, they can use cut and cover. As for the UBC station itself, it should be underground - an elevated station would be terrible right in the middle of campus.

Imagine UBC station; deep, modern, sleek, equipped with elevators and the most modern safety equipment.

...

For UBC station, it should be airy - lots of ceiling space, maybe like 30-feet ceilings with skylights atop bringing in a ton of daylight with art suspended atop.

Personally, I much rather see it elevated in UBC. I just think it fits more with the character in the area, not to mention, amazing views dleung and officedweller have pointed out, overlooking the top of the trees and downtown for the University Blvd portion and seeing the vast Strait of Georgia at UBC station. Can you imagine the daylight coming in? Just the thought of it sounds sweet. Now, if they made the elevated station a landmark, it would be perfect.

But one thing for sure is that the UBC station, if built as one station, should be larger to serve Allison (and area) better.

[agrant]

Aren't those trees pretty tall along University Blvd?

[mr.x]

They could certainly have it elevated from ~Blanca to ~Allison along the boulevard, but just not past Westbrook where the old bus loop is. Concrete pillars don't exactly fit the centre of campus. If the station is elevated they'd better make it look really nice, starchitecture nice....much nicer than even Brentwood.

But I still prefer the underground station option.

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by deasine

Personally, I much rather see it elevated in UBC. I just think it fits more with the character in the area, not to mention, amazing views dleung and officedweller have pointed out, overlooking the top of the trees and downtown for the University Blvd portion and seeing the vast Strait of Georgia at UBC station. Can you imagine the daylight coming in? Just the thought of it sounds sweet. Now, if they made the elevated station a landmark, it would be perfect.

But one thing for sure is that the UBC station, if built as one station, should be larger to serve Allison (and area) better.

To me, the idea of having it elevated along University Blvd is horribly grotesque. Yes, I agree that the view would be nice for the ridership, but
it would destroy the stately, calm feeling of the Western Endowment Lands, the graceful curve of the boulevard itself, and be an ugly monstrous eyesore. (This, again is my opinion only; others who like concrete pylons and overhead trains running through golf courses may disagree). Imagine the Seattle Monorail running down the length of Georgia Street? Wouldn't that give riders a nice view of downtown? Please, PLEASE, keep the line underground, as Mr. X pointed out.

[deasine]

Originally Posted by trofirhen

To me, the idea of having it elevated along University Blvd is horribly grotesque. Yes, I agree that the view would be nice for the ridership, but
it would destroy the stately, calm feeling of the Western Endowment Lands, the graceful curve of the boulevard itself, and be an ugly monstrous eyesore. (This, again is my opinion only; others who like concrete pylons and overhead trains running through golf courses may disagree). Imagine the Seattle Monorail running down the length of Georgia Street? Wouldn't that give riders a nice view of downtown? Please, PLEASE, keep the line underground, as Mr. X pointed out.

It's a matter of cost at the end of the day. I don't think it should be elevated at University Blvd until where roads actually cross University Blvd... I think it should be at-grade.

[racc]

Originally Posted by mr.x

They could certainly have it elevated from ~Blanca to ~Allison along the boulevard, but just not past Westbrook where the old bus loop is. Concrete pillars don't exactly fit the centre of campus. If the station is elevated they'd better make it look really nice, starchitecture nice....much nicer than even Brentwood.

But I still prefer the underground station option.

Underground stations and the tunnels are at least twice the cost of elevated. Even a small portion of hundreds of millions of dollars could be used to make the elevated guideway and station more attractive. For example, the concrete pillars could be covered with tiles, artwork or even greenwalls. It could be really quite nice.

Elevated guideways also make excellent cover for bike and ped paths. They have done a good job of this along #3 Road and could have even done better if they had more money.

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by racc

Underground stations and the tunnels are at least twice the cost of elevated. Even a small portion of hundreds of millions of dollars could be used to make the elevated guideway and station more attractive. For example, the concrete pillars could be covered with tiles, artwork or even greenwalls. It could be really quite nice.

Elevated guideways also make excellent cover for bike and ped paths. They have done a good job of this along #3 Road and could have even done better if they had more money.

_________________________________________________________________

Considering the global cost of the project, saving the amount of money just so as not to put the UBC section underground seems peanuts.

Even with tiles or artwork, guideway columns going down University Blvd would gash the elegant curving roadway, and look more like the Seattle monorail.

There are many more options for bike and ped paths in the area. We don't have to count on a monstrously ugly elevated railway - even with ferns growing up the side - to provide for bike and ped paths.

For the UBC portion, a cut-and cover option down University Blvd seems feasible, and leaves the Boulevard intact. Additionally, the Boulevard itself has a calm, graceful sweep to it, and an elevated railway is not going to enhance that.

I know this is Vancouver, where elegance and taste are not top priorities, . . . . . but at least let's give it a try, OK. Please?

Perhaps, if you can, try travelling to beautiful European cities with extensive subway and rail systems that are underground, and therefore so discreetly designed that they don't clash with the original beauty of the city.

Munich, Copenhagen, Stockholm and Vienna are good examples.

[mr.x]

I'd willing to be compromise to have the guideway elevated or even at-grade down the boulevard. There really isn't much you can do with regards to greening with an elevated guideway, unless they try really, really, really hard....and as for an at-grade guideway down the boulevard, I guess they could line the entire sides with tall and thick bushes to hide the fencing and tracks.

HOWEVER, UBC station must stay underground. An elevated station should only be built if it's something along the lines of this calibre:

[deasine]

Originally Posted by trofirhen

_________________________________________________________________

Considering the global cost of the project, saving the amount of money just so as not to put the UBC section underground seems peanuts.

Even with tiles or artwork, guideway columns going down University Blvd would gash the elegant curving roadway, and look more like the Seattle monorail.

There are many more options for bike and ped paths in the area. We don't have to count on a monstrously ugly elevated railway - even with ferns growing up the side - to provide for bike and ped paths.

For the UBC portion, a cut-and cover option down University Blvd seems feasible, and leaves the Boulevard intact. Additionally, the Boulevard itself has a calm, graceful sweep to it, and an elevated railway is not going to enhance that.

I know this is Vancouver, where elegance and taste are not top priorities, . . . . . but at least let's give it a try, OK. Please?

Perhaps, if you can, try travelling to beautiful European cities with extensive subway and rail systems that are underground, and therefore so discreetly designed that they don't clash with the original beauty of the city.

Munich, Copenhagen, Stockholm and Vienna are good examples.

Disagreed. First of all, it doesn't need to be elevated at University Blvd where there is a so called "elegant curving roadway." It can be at-grade and that would shave a lot of money off. It should only become elevated when it reaches the actual University Blvd and from there, it doesn't need to be going down the centre of the roadway.

This can actually save a lot of money for sure. Calculate the amount of kilometres multiply by the cost of building SkyTrain Underground and At-Grade and you can see the difference.

[gillty]

I cant be the only one that doesn't find University Blvd elegant or beautiful
i say save money there and build a gorgeous station that puts brentwood to shame

[mr.x]

Originally Posted by tGill

I cant be the only one that doesn't find University Blvd elegant or beautiful
i say save money there and build a gorgeous station that puts brentwood to shame

Add my name to that...plus one.


I absolutely agree with you. Like I said before, if there's going to be an elevated station right in the middle of the campus then it better be of this calibre:

[gillty]

Originally Posted by mr.x

Add my name to that...plus one.


I absolutely agree with you. Like I said before, if there's going to be an elevated station right in the middle of the campus then it better be of this calibre:

that is perfect

[racc]

Originally Posted by trofirhen

Considering the global cost of the project, saving the amount of money just so as not to put the UBC section underground seems peanuts.

Even with tiles or artwork, guideway columns going down University Blvd would gash the elegant curving roadway, and look more like the Seattle monorail.

There are many more options for bike and ped paths in the area. We don't have to count on a monstrously ugly elevated railway - even with ferns growing up the side - to provide for bike and ped paths.

For the UBC portion, a cut-and cover option down University Blvd seems feasible, and leaves the Boulevard intact. Additionally, the Boulevard itself has a calm, graceful sweep to it, and an elevated railway is not going to enhance that.

I know this is Vancouver, where elegance and taste are not top priorities, . . . . . but at least let's give it a try, OK. Please?

Perhaps, if you can, try travelling to beautiful European cities with extensive subway and rail systems that are underground, and therefore so discreetly designed that they don't clash with the original beauty of the city.

Munich, Copenhagen, Stockholm and Vienna are good examples.

Well, for one, I am suggesting placing the elevated line along Chancellor Blvd, not University Blvd.

You are right, Copenhagen is a great example. In Copenhagen, their metro is underground in the urban core and elevated outside the core. In fact, many cities elevate their metros outside the core including Paris. Copenhagen is also going to be using a new metro as a cover for a bicycle highway in a new development.

Elevated lines can look fine. It is just lazy and uncreative urban desigers that would rather not or are unable to make the effort to make them look good.