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  #501  
Old Posted Jul 30, 2009, 10:50 PM
WestsideATL WestsideATL is offline
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If you don't understand why projects must compete for funding, you need to get up to speed on how transportation planning is done. The metropolitan planning organization, which is the ARC in Atlanta, must develop a long-range plan that is fiscally balanced, meaning they can only program projects that are expected to have funding available.

A list of ARC's long-range projects can be found here: http://www.atlantaregional.com/documents/tp_rtplist_073109.pdf

The BeltLine transit projects are on pages 61 and 62 of the pdf. The first two projects slated for implementation (NE and SE quadrants) are listed with a 50 percent federal match. For some reason the other two quadrants are entirely funded using local funds (if they just use BeltLine TAD bonds, that'd probably be okay). If there isn't dedicated funding for a particular project, like through a TAD or an earmark, all the remaining projects must "compete" to get an allocation out of a pool of potential local and federal funds. I'm sure there will be some new C3 projects trying to get into the next plan update and they'll have to "compete" against other projects, like the BeltLine, to get in.

Regarding the Ponce Streetcar, my understanding from the Connect Atlanta meetings was that the North Avenue streetcar labeled on the C3 map would shift over to Ponce at Juniper/Piedmont and continue east to Briarcliff.

Last edited by WestsideATL; Jul 31, 2009 at 4:45 AM.
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  #502  
Old Posted Jul 31, 2009, 2:01 AM
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Damn, lighten up! Why are people on this forum so defensive?
ok madonnalicious, look around, every thread is heartache, it's everywhere that you go, you try everything you can to escape, the pain of these threads you must know.....

i'll lighten up when you drop your trolling comments about a thread being dead, particularly in an active and lively thread.
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  #503  
Old Posted Jul 31, 2009, 3:38 AM
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Originally Posted by WestsideATL View Post
If you don't understand why projects must compete for funding, you need to get up to speed on how transportation planning is done. The metropolitan planning organization, which is the ARC in Atlanta, must develop a long-range plan that is fiscally balanced, meaning they can only program projects that are expected to have funding available.

A list of ARC's long-range projects can be found here: http://www.atlantaregional.com/documents/tp_rtplist_073109.pdf

The BeltLine transit projects are on pages 61 and 62 of the pdf. The first two projects slated for implementation (NW and NE quadrants) are listed with a 50 percent federal match. For some reason the other two quadrants are entirely funded using local funds (if they just use BeltLine TAD bonds, that'd probably be okay). If there isn't dedicated funding for a particular project, like through a TAD or an earmark, all the remaining projects must "compete" to get an allocation out of a pool of potential local and federal funds. I'm sure there will be some new C3 projects trying to get into the next plan update and they'll have to "compete" against other projects, like the BeltLine, to get in.

Regarding the Ponce Streetcar, my understanding from the Connect Atlanta meetings was that the North Avenue streetcar labeled on the C3 map would shift over to Ponce at Juniper/Piedmont and continue east to Briarcliff.
addmittedly i'm not up to speed on the complexity of how transportation funding works (or doesn't work as the case may be in georgia).

it is dissapointing, however, to see 400+ pages of ARC prioritized projects on the list and the overwhelming majority focusing on auto centric and non-transit solutions.

the beltline's capital plan is to secure a majority of funding from bond issues, TAD proceeds and capital campaigns with the remainder hopefully coming from federal funds. i could see where the beltline would front load federal funding on earlier quadrants as TAD proceeds grow increasingly toward the end of the implementation timeline. i haven't heard anything at all about state contributions and don't expect too.

i would suggest it's really not the beltline that's competing with LRT projects along 85/75/295, clifton and ponce, rather (IMHO) i'd say it's the hundreds of road projects that are likely to drain and compete with federal funding opportunities for all LRT projects including the beltline.

what role does the state play in advocating any of these projects and their potential to receive federal funds? it seems like the state could be a bit more strategic and aggressive in pursuing federal transporation dollars. some might argue the state has been negligent in the handling of commuter rail proposals between atlanta/athens, atlanta/lovejoy as well as laying the groundwork for the national HSR that is proposed to criss cross the state with a hub somewhere in atlanta.

anyway, i haven't seen this dialogue as petty or argumentative, on the contrary, it's been interesting and informative. thanks for weighing in.
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  #504  
Old Posted Jul 31, 2009, 5:05 PM
WestsideATL WestsideATL is offline
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Originally Posted by atl2phx View Post
i would suggest it's really not the beltline that's competing with LRT projects along 85/75/295, clifton and ponce, rather (IMHO) i'd say it's the hundreds of road projects that are likely to drain and compete with federal funding opportunities for all LRT projects including the beltline.

what role does the state play in advocating any of these projects and their potential to receive federal funds? it seems like the state could be a bit more strategic and aggressive in pursuing federal transporation dollars. some might argue the state has been negligent in the handling of commuter rail proposals between atlanta/athens, atlanta/lovejoy as well as laying the groundwork for the national HSR that is proposed to criss cross the state with a hub somewhere in atlanta.
Actually the transit and highway projects do not really compete against each other for federal funds, or state funds for that matter. The federal funding program identified for the BeltLine, New Starts, is a program dedicated to funding capital transit projects. In that program, not only does the project compete with local projects for priority, but it has to compete against candidate projects from the rest of the country. And there's not a lot of transit money to go around (although hopefully that will change in the next reauthorization). State fuel taxes are legislatively required to fund road projects, so unless the legislature changes the law, the State won't have much money available to contribute to transit.

Like you say, it's not clear what the state's agenda or role in transit really is. DOT sat on the Lovejoy commuter rail project for years now because they couldn't line up enough operating funding, but they're also doing that high-speed rail study to Chattanooga and supporting the ROW acquisition efforts of the BeltLine. It's curious. My guess is that as long as the state legislature and governor are more concerned with building 4 lane roads and boat ramps in south Georgia than fixing congestion and providing mobility alternatives in Atlanta, we're not going to see much out of the DOT.
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  #505  
Old Posted Aug 1, 2009, 2:16 AM
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Originally Posted by WestsideATL View Post
Actually the transit and highway projects do not really compete against each other for federal funds, or state funds for that matter. The federal funding program identified for the BeltLine, New Starts, is a program dedicated to funding capital transit projects. In that program, not only does the project compete with local projects for priority, but it has to compete against candidate projects from the rest of the country. And there's not a lot of transit money to go around (although hopefully that will change in the next reauthorization). State fuel taxes are legislatively required to fund road projects, so unless the legislature changes the law, the State won't have much money available to contribute to transit.
it's the reality of that last statement that hurts.

if 10% of the fuel tax proceeds from the atlanta MSA where allocated to C3 transit projects, it would add up to a good chunk of change in no time and probably provide a nice jump start to many C3 projects.

rather, the state has been jockeying with the gas tax lately, dropping it whenever there's a significant jump in prices. to me, this just reinforces the idea that atlanta's extraordinary commute times and distances are normal and acceptable.

georgia could use a good dose of reform, not only at the state level, but among the citizens as well. if both don't get behind transit alternatives, congestion and car clutter will further erode quality of life and atlanta's desirability as a business and cultural center.
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  #506  
Old Posted Aug 1, 2009, 5:07 AM
joecool joecool is offline
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Originally Posted by atl2phx View Post
ok madonnalicious, look around, every thread is heartache, it's everywhere that you go, you try everything you can to escape, the pain of these threads you must know.....

i'll lighten up when you drop your trolling comments about a thread being dead, particularly in an active and lively thread.
OMG...... wow! You have major issues man. There is no need for you to be such a douche bag. It was never that serious, trolling comments? I have been on the forum waaaaay longer than you have and have never had any complaints about my comments. My comment was not that serious so mind your own business. If I ever say anything inappropriate or wrong on this forum that is left for the moderators to judge and tell me what I can and can not say. So feel free to ignore my comments next time because I am not responding to yours anymore.
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  #507  
Old Posted Aug 1, 2009, 1:48 PM
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atl2phx atl2phx is offline
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Originally Posted by joecool View Post
OMG...... wow! You have major issues man. There is no need for you to be such a douche bag. It was never that serious, trolling comments? I have been on the forum waaaaay longer than you have and have never had any complaints about my comments. My comment was not that serious so mind your own business. If I ever say anything inappropriate or wrong on this forum that is left for the moderators to judge and tell me what I can and can not say. So feel free to ignore my comments next time because I am not responding to yours anymore.
dude, talk about needing to relax. you win.

what did you drink this morning, a couple of quadruple mega ultra orange twist mocha frappuccinos with extra whip?

for the record, you're correct, i am a douche bag, although more of a baggie....you know, the light version....not the full on bag.

Last edited by atl2phx; Aug 2, 2009 at 3:26 AM. Reason: had to agree that i am a douche bag/baggie
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  #508  
Old Posted Aug 1, 2009, 3:01 PM
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madonnalicious
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  #509  
Old Posted Aug 3, 2009, 4:00 PM
smArTaLlone smArTaLlone is offline
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Beltline overview by Creative Loafing

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  #510  
Old Posted Aug 6, 2009, 3:02 PM
smArTaLlone smArTaLlone is offline
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Beltline proposal near Piedmont Park prompts concerns about density

August 5, 2009 at 11:04 am by Thomas Wheatley

Some intown residents who’ve never been ones to shy away from city and developer battles say they’re none too pleased with the proposed vision of the Beltline near Piedmont Park.

According to preliminary plans for the Beltline’s segment that stretches from Ansley Park to City Hall East, future developers would be allowed to build up to eight stories at the congested corner of 10th Street and Monroe Drive.

That’s a far cry from the twin Towers of Babel that Gwinnett County developer Wayne Mason wanted to build on the same spot in 2006. But the reduction in size — and the fact that no specific development project’s been proposed — hasn’t stopped some residents from voicing concerns over what they say is an inappropriate vision for one of intown Atlanta’s most popular neighborhoods.

Some residents of Virginia-Highland, Morningside and Midtown say the proposal contradicts several land-use plans already on the books, including the TAD redevelopment plan approved years ago by its Neighborhood Planning Unit and City Council. Residents say that plan shows the properties to remain open space.

“Allowing any development at 10th and Monroe, let alone an eight story building and four story buildings on land that is currently designated as single family residential, will constitute the worst form of bait and switch,” Jenifer Keenan, a Virginia-Highland resident, recently wrote in a letter to Beltline officials. More than 120 homeowners have already signed a petition opposing the Beltline proposal.

Keenan, who was part of the grassroots effort to block Mason’s plan for two 38-story towers at the same corner, says the resident opposition isn’t about NIMBYism, but protecting Piedmont Park and the neighborhood from inappropriate development. She worries that dense development would mar the charm of the city’s most iconic greenspace. She also says that the city risks establishing a dangerous precedent if it decides to rezone property it owns. (Last year, the city purchased the unused railroad tracks and nearly 66 acres in the corridor from Mason.)

“It would pave the way for additional changes or at least support an argument for changes,” Keenan told CL. “If I were a developer, and the city was willing to rezone the land they owned from single-family residential to multi-family, I could say, ‘I want you to do that for me, too. If you’re willing to do it for property you own, there’s no legal or historical basis for not doing that for my property.’ There can’t be a double standard that [says] ‘we’ll rezone city-owned land, but we won’t rezone privately owned land.’”

Beltline officials, however, think the proposal is more favorable then the original redevelopment plan. They said they’ve scaled back that plan’s number of proposed development sites, from 11 to four, and marked the seven other areas to become greenspace. They add that any development, whether it’s two years or 20 years from now, will be required to go through the city’s zoning process.

With smart development, officials say, the dysfunctional corner could serve as a “new gateway” to Piedmont Park and spur a nearby walkable village. They say the project also needs adjacent development to boost transit ridership, compete for federal funding, and fuel the tax allocation district that’s the chief funding source for the 22-mile loop of parks, trails and transit.

The issue of density in the Beltline’s northeast segment has been a frequent topic of debate at recent planning meetings. (At last month’s presentation, the only topic neighbors wanted to discuss was the 10th and Monroe proposal.) Many in attendance were opposed to the concept for the same reasons outlined above. Others, such as Angel Poventud and Sally Flocks of pedestrian advocacy group PEDS, said that the Beltline plans outline a long-term vision for Atlanta, which is only expected to grow. Flocks said many of her friends’ children can’t afford to live in the city and that the Beltline might offer them an opportunity.

But the debate also raises the issue of how binding the various plans that undergo public participation and City Council approval actually are. Also interesting is the argument over whether the city can rezone property it owns — property that’s part of a project which City Hall poobahs by and large support. Then, of course, there’s the larger citywide issue: increasing density in some areas that abut single-family homes while respecting the character of existing neighborhoods. There are lots of moving parts and unanswered questions here, so it’ll be fascinating to see how this pans out.

Officials have invited a group of residents to conduct a “walk-through” of the 10th and Monroe area on Friday at 9 a.m. Residents have requested another meeting in addition to that meet-up to tour the spot and speak with project planners. Officials say they’ll continue to discuss the project with residents over the coming months to address concerns. Office hours to review the plans with Beltline officials are scheduled to be held in September.

The plan must still undergo the NPU process and gain city approval, which Beltline officials hope will happen before the end of the year.

10th & Monroe proposal

Last edited by smArTaLlone; Aug 6, 2009 at 3:42 PM.
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  #511  
Old Posted Aug 6, 2009, 6:06 PM
cybele cybele is offline
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That doesn't look all that bad to me.

The problem I see is that Piedmont Park is already getting overcrowded. Where are all these people coming from? It's almost impossible to find a place to park around there at times.
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  #512  
Old Posted Aug 6, 2009, 6:48 PM
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That doesn't look all that bad to me.
I don't think it looks bad either! Just about anything that gets rid of the Meridian Storage building gets my vote. Where was Ms. Keenan and her "inappropriate development" stance when that went in?

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It's almost impossible to find a place to park around there at times.
Have you tried the new parking deck yet?
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  #513  
Old Posted Aug 6, 2009, 6:50 PM
Curious Atlantan Curious Atlantan is offline
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Originally Posted by cybele View Post
That doesn't look all that bad to me.

The problem I see is that Piedmont Park is already getting overcrowded. Where are all these people coming from? It's almost impossible to find a place to park around there at times.
Isn't the whole idea to increase density so that we will not have to drive and finally the Beltline become ready for transit? Come on, Atlanta will never become a serious city unless at least some small parts of it become less car friendly. I thought the beltline was one of these areas...
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  #514  
Old Posted Aug 6, 2009, 7:20 PM
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Amen to getting rid of that hideous storage facility.

Isn't Piedmont Park supposed to nearly double in size with the expansions? Further densification around the east side of the park is certainly warranted, and 8 stories doesn't seem odd especially considering there's already a building taller than that at the Monroe/Virginia intersection.
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  #515  
Old Posted Aug 6, 2009, 7:37 PM
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For those who haven't seen it, here's the Beltline's 88 page PDF Northeast master-plan, which includes the 10th&Monroe stuff.
http://www.beltline.org/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=WHfUqcFTihw%3d&tabid=1824&mid=4386
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  #516  
Old Posted Aug 6, 2009, 7:41 PM
cybele cybele is offline
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Originally Posted by Curious Atlantan View Post
Isn't the whole idea to increase density so that we will not have to drive and finally the Beltline become ready for transit? Come on, Atlanta will never become a serious city unless at least some small parts of it become less car friendly. I thought the beltline was one of these areas...
The problem is there's no way to get your dogs there without driving. That's one of the main reasons to go to the park. MARTA doesn't allow it, and the Beltline doesn't exist. It's not clear that the Beltline will allow dogs even when it does get built.

There's nothing that makes cities incompatible with cars anyway. I've seen zillions of cars in cities all over the world.
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  #517  
Old Posted Aug 6, 2009, 7:43 PM
cybele cybele is offline
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Have you tried the new parking deck yet?
I have walked by it but haven't parked there yet. Don't you have to pay to park there?
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  #518  
Old Posted Aug 6, 2009, 8:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Curious Atlantan View Post
Isn't the whole idea to increase density so that we will not have to drive and finally the Beltline become ready for transit? Come on, Atlanta will never become a serious city unless at least some small parts of it become less car friendly. I thought the beltline was one of these areas...
Yes -- great point. I think that increasing residential (and retail) density around major, shared features of the city such as the big parks (like Piedmont), MARTA stations and large office areas is the best way to push Atlanta towards a more sustainable, pedestrian-friendly future.

Allowing more of the people who want to be in the park regularly to actually live in easy walking distance of the park is a great step in the right direction. An eight-story apartment building in the middle of the Morningside residential area makes no sense. But in this 10th street spot, where there is a huge and popular shared public park space, it does. I want to see a situation where density is so great around the park that there's no need for the parking deck or even for street-side parking. Bring in the density of residents and follow it up with additional public transit lines.
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  #519  
Old Posted Aug 6, 2009, 8:03 PM
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Originally Posted by cybele View Post
That doesn't look all that bad to me.
It's almost impossible to find a place to park around there at times.
much agreed, i think this a pretty sufficient representation of the level of density we should expect in that area and along the beltline. this is one helluva improvement from the monstrosity trammel crow proposed some time back.......i guess once you've got that NIMBY reflex, it's hard to check it.

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Originally Posted by cybele View Post
The problem is there's no way to get your dogs there without driving.
IMHO, if it's that difficult, maybe the dogs should not be part of the trip.

what about chattahooche, chastain, tanyard creek or some of the other north atlanta dog friendly parks?
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  #520  
Old Posted Aug 6, 2009, 8:20 PM
cybele cybele is offline
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IMHO, if it's that difficult, maybe the dogs should not be part of the trip.

what about chattahooche, chastain, tanyard creek or some of the other north atlanta dog friendly parks?
Well, yes, we have been to all those parks, too, but sometimes the girls like to go to Piedmont. They get a real kick out of watching the ducks and meeting all the other people and dogs. They grew up going to Piedmont and have a strong sentimental attachment to that part of town.

I do, too, and walking without the dogs is just not the same.
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