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  #4581  
Old Posted Jul 24, 2009, 11:08 PM
Wolkenkratzerliebhab Wolkenkratzerliebhab is offline
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Technically, the refinery is on HOLD!

Technically, according to the newspaper, the refinery is more on hold than dead! Irving, after all, is still preparing to go through with getting all of the permits granted, so they can resume the project just as soon as the economy improves.

The big question, naturally, is when will that be? It could be a very long time from what they are saying, but who knows? Hopefully, that will change soon. All we can do is hope, I guess?

This also means that the new proposed Fort Dufferen towers won't be built. I still think that they plan to build the town houses, but I was looking forward to the towers .

Also, I believe Rocca was also holding off, waiting for the refinery to go ahead before building a new 600 unit complex out east, with at least one eight-story building. This too probably will be cancelled!

I had a talk with the mayor a month or so ago, and at that time, he said that there was so many major companies thinking of coming to Saint John that they could barely keep up with all their requests. Hopefully, that won't change, because Irving is still planning to build a multi-billion dollar liquid gas generating plant and wind farm. That might actually be sped up with the hold on the refinery!

It's not the end, of course, but it was a very sad day for Saint John none-the-less. More of a slow down than anything, but still sad.
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  #4582  
Old Posted Jul 25, 2009, 12:49 AM
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I love the Keynesian statement from the mayor, saying that the economy is still strong due to the Peel Plaza project.

I doubt the real estate market will collapse - maybe retract a bit. The apartment market might have been getting a little inflated, but the current economy was supporting higher rents and lower vacancy (it's not all speculation driving growth).

We still have an aging population that wants to downsize – condos and townhouses near the core and near the hospital will still be valuable.

If you think about the recent developments in the uptown most were not related to energy; the Market Square expansion is to accommodate a knowledge sector business, the Cruise Terminal is for tourism, Centerbeam's occupants aren't all Irving, and so forth.

Hopefully the province is able to ditch their Energy Hub propaganda, and make long term decisions based on forward looking business models.

The knowledge sector is where real growth is – not just the exploitation of natural resources.

Also, if we’re a tourism town, maybe we shouldn’t be aiming to add more pollution generators to the skyline.

Too bad we didn’t close the university in favour of an energy hub friendly training poly-technique. Maybe the world economy would demand more refined oil if we did.
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  #4583  
Old Posted Jul 25, 2009, 2:47 AM
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In the grand scheme of things, nothing has realy changed. It would have been nice to have the extra construction and permanent jobs, but economically, today is the same as yesterday. In a way, it's nice to have this "rumour" busted.

Irving still has alot of plans, and Lepreau is still a possibility. Preferably, Lepreau 2 will get built, and by the time it's winding down, Irving will jump back on the refinery plan.
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  #4584  
Old Posted Jul 25, 2009, 11:23 AM
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I gotta admit that finishing the environmental permit process is a pretty slick move too, so that if they decide to build the refinery in 10 years, they still only have to meet the regulations of 2009.
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  #4585  
Old Posted Jul 25, 2009, 5:55 PM
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2nd refinery quashed

I know this won't be a popular opinion, but I personally am glad the 2nd refinery has been quashed. The air quality for those of us who live in the city has been doubly assaulted now with both the original refinery and now the LNG plant. I drove out to Mispec the other day and the smell was exactly like that oily smell from the refinery. On foggy days it is choking. I won't go into how the view of the LNG has ruined the beauty of Mispec.

The 2nd refinery would have provided short term work, yes. Just enough to tempt our families back from Alberta and then they'd be gone again. But the Irvings have taken most of our Bay of Fundy shoreline from the Nature Park to Mispec and that can never be replaced. Once they buy a piece of land, it NEVER goes up for sale again. Only the rich can afford a view of the Bay now and that's a shame. JMHO
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  #4586  
Old Posted Jul 25, 2009, 9:07 PM
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Lepreau 2 needs to get built ASAP.

And fundygal is completely right about the Irving's owning land. They own some land down by my home that we tried to buy so we could have waterfront property and they were never going to budge.
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  #4587  
Old Posted Jul 25, 2009, 9:49 PM
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Not to sound pessimistic, but I wouldnt' get my hopes up about Lepreau 2. the current refurbishment is waay behind schedule and over budget. It'll be a tough political sell for the government to make that happen when the time comes. Should the Conservatives come to power after next year's election, that's exactly the type of project they'll mothball to distinguish themselves from the previous government.
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  #4588  
Old Posted Jul 25, 2009, 11:17 PM
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As if this province will ever elect the same party that is running Ottawa.
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  #4589  
Old Posted Jul 25, 2009, 11:54 PM
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The Irving companies have been a lot more willing to sell land and assets lately. They are wise to keep land that could be useful for them in the future, but JD is currently selling a lot of land in Nova Scotia.

I don't resent Irving owning the Irving Nature Park - I'll take a privately owned park over a subdivision.
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  #4590  
Old Posted Jul 26, 2009, 12:06 AM
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Quote:
I don't resent Irving owning the Irving Nature Park - I'll take a privately owned park over a subdivision.
My inclusion of the Nature Park was to give a western reference point to the beginning of their land holdings, and maybe they go further west but that's a well known point. I agree that the Nature Park is a GOOD thing the Irvings have done. As for a subdivision? I agree, as again only the rich would be able to enjoy a view of the Bay.
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  #4591  
Old Posted Jul 26, 2009, 1:16 AM
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Originally Posted by PersonPlaceorThing View Post
The Irving companies have been a lot more willing to sell land and assets lately. They are wise to keep land that could be useful for them in the future, but JD is currently selling a lot of land in Nova Scotia.
Perhaps due to the infighting and destined breakup of the Irving family of companies?

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  #4592  
Old Posted Jul 26, 2009, 1:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fundygal View Post
My inclusion of the Nature Park was to give a western reference point to the beginning of their land holdings, and maybe they go further west but that's a well known point. I agree that the Nature Park is a GOOD thing the Irvings have done. As for a subdivision? I agree, as again only the rich would be able to enjoy a view of the Bay.
Not unlike what is happening now with Drury Cove and the Kennebecasis River
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  #4593  
Old Posted Jul 26, 2009, 1:18 AM
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Originally Posted by GregHickman View Post
Perhaps due to the infighting and destined breakup of the Irving family of companies?

Well the JDI side is in pretty rough shape financially these days, while IOL/Fort Reliance has been chugging along quite well recently. IOL has been buying up land and JDI has been selling; the companies are heading in different directions.
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  #4594  
Old Posted Jul 26, 2009, 1:30 AM
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Right, and the Irving children are fighting over assets.

Also, whenever you travel to a place like Chester or Lunenburg, Nova Scotia or whereever else on the water, do you realize how a lot of places have waterfront properties and great views and property? Do you then realize how Saint John has nearly none of that on the Saint John river? They're trying to build up Cedar Point, which does have a nice view, but it's all cliff for waterfront property.

And also, if you're living on the waterfront in Uptown, you're going to have a view of the harbour, but it's mostly going to be a view of the west-side port and ferry facilities, it's not that great of a view. Some of the better views are from the new homes on Chesley Avenue facing Uptown.
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  #4595  
Old Posted Jul 26, 2009, 4:23 AM
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PDF map of JDI land holdings:

http://www.jdirving.com/uploadedFiles/Pr...and_Forest_Products/JDIOperationsMap.pdf


How is the new Irving HQ progressing? Has any site prep work begun?
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  #4596  
Old Posted Jul 26, 2009, 8:23 PM
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I saw the house on I believe it is Millidgeville Road? (the one that had the fire overlooking the overpass by Harbour Station) got torn down.
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  #4597  
Old Posted Jul 27, 2009, 12:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mylesmalley View Post
PDF map of JDI land holdings:

http://www.jdirving.com/uploadedFiles/Pr...and_Forest_Products/JDIOperationsMap.pdf


How is the new Irving HQ progressing? Has any site prep work begun?
There has been activity on-site with the driving of test pilings and whatnot, but construction won't be starting until the Fall at the earliest.
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  #4598  
Old Posted Jul 27, 2009, 6:57 PM
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Some rumors suggest Irving has plans to buy the Shell refinery out in Montreal (the refinery has been put on the market one month ago) for about $75-milion instead of building a new one right here in New-Brunswick.

Of course, they also want to takeover all the Shell locations in Quebec and in the Maritimes as well, the cornerstores as in other Irving locations would be branded Couche-Tard in Quebec and Circle K in Atlantic Canada.

So... You could take for granted as the Montreal-based Ultramar won't let them go that easily.
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  #4599  
Old Posted Jul 29, 2009, 4:02 PM
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Former resident suggests building of town centre

C5 MARY-ELLEN SAUNDERS TELEGRAPH-JOURNAL
Wednesday, July 29, 2009

ROTHESAY - An engineer and former Kennebecaisis Valley resident has suggested a town centre with space for shops and restaurants on the land be built on the corner of Campbell Drive and Millennium Drive.

"Imagine taking an evening stroll down a bustling cobblestone street to browse the shops and boutiques of the Kennebecasis Valley and bumping into your neighbours, who are enjoying a latte on a small patio with jazz music filling the air," David Hook said.

"Feeling like you're miles away from home, yet you're just down the street. And if you live further away in Gondola Point or K-Park, a short wait and a bus will be along to bring you home."

Hook grew up in Quispamsis, studied civil engineering at the University of New Brunswick and now lives in Ottawa, where he works as a transportation planner.

Hook said even though he does not live in New Brunswick, he follows local news and is interested in seeing his hometown prosper. Which is why, when given the opportunity, he submitted a proposal to the Town of Rothesay during its municipal plan review. Hook suggested a town centre be built on the site where a Wal-Mart was once proposed in Rothesay.

"As a former resident, I have always wondered why this town had no traditional core," Hook wrote in his letter to town council.

"Since these towns evolved with no distinct commercial sector, it would be an interesting idea to build a town centre complete with a traditional main street, brick-faced buildings, streetfront shopping, on-street parking, restaurants with patios, boutiques and residential units above."

Hook said commercial development in the valley has been mostly on Hampton Road, which is not a very pedestrian friendly area. He said the development on Hampton Road is spread out and the road is also used as a thoroughfare for traffic. He said travelling the road to do shopping is a bit stressful and not ideal for the area's commercial district.

The civil engineer suggested a town centre similar to the ones in Pearland in Houston, Texas, Nashville, Tennessee, or Kanata Centrum in Ottawa could transform the area from a bedroom community to a vibrant town.

Rothesay Mayor Bill Bishop said the land is owned privately and to date the town has not had any proposals that look at that approach.

"Our town centre is the Rothesay Common, it has been for decades and it will continue to be," Bishop said.

"Rothesay is sort of unique in that we concentrate more on the residential aspect. We realize there are needs for services but we're not interested in developing a great number of commercial outlets. We are interested in keeping land for residential development."

Phil Brodersen, president of the Kennebecasis Valley Chamber of Commerce, said a project such as the one Hook suggested would be quite an investment and while it is easy to make the suggestion, there isn't someone stepping forward who is prepared to do it.

"Hampton Road is already established and to try and get businesses to relocate might be a challenge," Brodersen said. "I think it's going to be a hard sell."

Hook said he would love to invest in a town centre such as the one he has proposed but is too early in his career to have the assets to do so. He suggested the centre could be built by a private business or on a private-public partnership with Quispamsis and Rothesay jointly working on the project.

"I think investors would be very interested, provided the concept was presented in a way that makes it look like an exciting opportunity to do something different and is backed by community support," Hook said.


source: maps.bing.com

source: David Hook

source: David Hook

source: David Hook

Public comments from Canadaeast.com:

"I love this idea! Make it happen!" 10 Thumbs Up, 0 Thumbs Down
"An approach like this will get people to mingle and take more pride their neighbourhood. The town centre reminds me of places in Europe I have been where on Saturdays you have an outside market set up in conjunction with the existing store fronts (note - not big box) and the cafés and brasseries. As an added bonus, I believe a bus service to town centre would reduce overall traffic as people will realize it isn't 'that bad' and start taking the bus not only within KV but also to Saint John.

Great idea - we need more forward thinkers like Mr. Hook!"
3 Thumbs Up, 0 Thumbs Down

Last edited by dhottawa729; Jul 29, 2009 at 8:56 PM.
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  #4600  
Old Posted Jul 30, 2009, 1:36 AM
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^^^ mayor bishop is being really short sighted on this idea.

"Rothesay is sort of unique in that we concentrate more on the residential aspect" no, no it's not unique, in fact it's way too common to see a town focusing solely on residential development.

"Our town centre is the Rothesay Common, it has been for decades and it will continue to be," honestly, how many people go to the commons, just for the bountiful shopping and to see the wonderful destination that it is? don't get me wrong, the commons is a nice place, but does it feel like a true center for the community?

This valley needs a proper town center, a true destination that one can go to and feel good about going to. I've often walked to the shopping centers on th old Hampton road, getting across that thing is a chore, plus it's not really a destination that one goes to to meet friends, or do any browsing. it's just there to give us what we need, no frills, nothing special.

there is plenty of land there, i doubt it will be used for housing due to it's proximity to Campbell and millennium, and the highway and the big box stores, why not do the Town center Idea, you can add apartments into the master plan as well, and boom, you've got the residential development that Mr. Bishop loves so much. this valley, is boring, getting to it's main shopping areas is stressful, not to mention dangerous (hampton road is dangerous even if you're driving) we need to follow up on this idea.

42 big thumbs up for mr hook
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