ATLANTA | Development Thread V

[alleystreetindustry]

Originally Posted by patrick84

I think the goal of this area is to begin to create a HOT or Truck Only Lane through the entire connector... This is obviously just the beginning; and I somehow imagine it will fall through when they try to expand anything b/w North and Grady.

i thought the same thing, until i realized it isnt lawful for a truck to drive through atlanta using the connector or i-20. the only trucks you see in atlanta are ones that are delivering or picking up. that is why atlanta is the truckers nightmare, they must always detour/bypass the city using 285, which takes up precious time.

and the streetcar is a great idea. not solely for transportation, but mostly for street appeal and livability. taking the streetcar from the fox to the high wouldnt make sense, but for a visitor it would be a wonderful experience. i loved riding the new system in north little rock when i was there a couple years ago. and bringing something back from atlantas past may help the city fall in love with public transportation again. (marta is great, but not in a majority of the citizens eye)

however, i feel like the city should invest in marta expansions to the northwest (atlantic station and beyond), northeast (at least to emory, lavista, etc.), southwest (camp creek parkway?), and southeast (past the zoo and into east atlanta and surrounding neighborhoods to the south), as well as the beltline, before the streetcar is even on the drawing boards. the streetcar is a good idea, but i would much rather the beltline be done first and foremost. (and duh, commuter rail too!)

there are so many people in atlanta that still dont know what the beltline is, and a majority of those that do dont understand the importance of such a system. the beltline would link almost every important neighborhood around the heart of the city, and marta would connect the center to the surrounding. atlanta will easily become one of americas most desirable cities (for real this time) as soon as the beltline is complete and beyond. i cannot explain to all of you on this forum how excited i am about the project.

a good example is having the capability of getting out of school [@ grady] and taking the train to inman park in half the time it takes to use marta (which requires you to either take a bus, or take the train which requires a transfer). both consume A LOT of time.

[RobMidtowner]

Another advantage a streetcar has over MARTA is it's openness and simplicity. Would you rather ride a train through a dark tunnel and hope you get off at the right stop (or go out the right direction at the stop for that matter) or see your destination out the window of the streetcar and know to get off at the next stop? In my experience, it's a lot easier to find destinations by actually seeing them rather than reading it on a map.

Also, they will be in shared lanes so the impact to traffic will be similar to the buses already using the corridor.

And as far as livability/walkability, has anyone ever been on a streetcar corridor in another city that doesn't have a lot of pedestrian traffic and liveliness? If the government is handing out $$ for infrastructure improvements right now, we should definitely apply for this.

[briantech]

Originally Posted by RobMidtowner

Another advantage a streetcar has over MARTA is it's openness and simplicity. Would you rather ride a train through a dark tunnel and hope you get off at the right stop (or go out the right direction at the stop for that matter) or see your destination out the window of the streetcar and know to get off at the next stop? In my experience, it's a lot easier to find destinations by actually seeing them rather than reading it on a map.

Also, they will be in shared lanes so the impact to traffic will be similar to the buses already using the corridor.

And as far as livability/walkability, has anyone ever been on a streetcar corridor in another city that doesn't have a lot of pedestrian traffic and liveliness? If the government is handing out $$ for infrastructure improvements right now, we should definitely apply for this.

If they are so similar to buses ... why don't people just ride the bus

[RobMidtowner]

Don't misunderstand, I said the impact to traffic will be similar to buses.

And to answer your question, actually people do ride the bus. In fact, the Peach has the highest ridership of all MARTA bus routes.

[ATLaffinity]

Originally Posted by briantech

If they are so similar to buses ... why don't people just ride the bus

because people with money don't ride the bus. black or white or yellow or brown.

plus, buses feel temporary and unreliable. a streetcar makes a statement: "Peachtree St. is the heart of Atlanta".

i also agree that the Beltline is a great means of transportation. once you have that circle on top of the MARTA "cross", you can get a lot of places. i always think it's silly when people say it won't get people anywhere since it's just a circle.

[patrick84]

Originally Posted by ATLaffinity

i also agree that the Beltline is a great means of transportation. once you have that circle on top of the MARTA "cross", you can get a lot of places. i always think it's silly when people say it won't get people anywhere since it's just a circle.

They must have missed the success of the Circle Line in London, the Loop in Chicago, and most of the Paris Metro layout.

[plorenc]

Originally Posted by ATLaffinity

because people with money don't ride the bus. black or white or yellow or brown.

plus, buses feel temporary and unreliable. a streetcar makes a statement: "Peachtree St. is the heart of Atlanta".

You put the words right into my mouth.

Originally Posted by ATLaffinity

i also agree that the Beltline is a great means of transportation. once you have that circle on top of the MARTA "cross", you can get a lot of places. i always think it's silly when people say it won't get people anywhere since it's just a circle.

I think the problem that some (specifically the vocal GT professor Mike Dobbins) have with it is that it doesn't go to anywhere too significant at the moment. The BeltLine just circles around neighborhoods, without directly connecting to job centers. Going to Midtown or Downtown will require one to transfer, which will cut down ridership numbers greatly. People are still going to choose the most direct route, which is mainly driving.

My idea to alleviate this is to extend the BeltLine through Midtown and Downtown in five places, and have it run as six different lines. Five would connect the neighborhoods to Midtown/Downtown in different places and the last would act as the same loop, if one wanted to get from Inman Park to Virginia Highland, for example. At the moment, there wouldn't be enough ridership to justify only the last line, but I sure the other five would cover its cost.

I'm trying to create a map to illustrate my idea's potential form, but I can't seem to figure it out. If anyone has any ideas pertaining to this, they would be greatly appreciated.

[atl2phx]

i think what alot of people overlook is that the beltline will not only connect neighborhoods and points of interest, but to also stimulate development within and around the beltline.

i've read somewhere that already more than $1B in residential/commercial developments have been completed or turned dirt in the proximity of the beltline in which the developers specifically pointed to the beltline as the catalyst for their investment......$1B before any track has been laid. frankly, that's amazing.

take the beltline tour or walk the beltline......i think it's pretty clear most of the apartment complexes that have risen nearby are doing so because of location. ultimately you have to believe many of the future residents of these developments work in areas served by the beltline or MARTA and will choose to live there rather than suburban or semi-suburban options where a commute of 30-60 minutes would be required.

RE: PEACHTREE STREETCAR. as already pointed out by robmidtowner and plorenc, the peachtree streetcar provides a much more pedestrian/integrated experience at streetlevel, stopping every block or so is a much more viable way to get to points of interest on peachtree than anything MARTA rail could offer, without the unreliability and stigma of MARTA buses.

[ATLaffinity]

Originally Posted by plorenc

My idea to alleviate this is to extend the BeltLine through Midtown and Downtown in five places, and have it run as six different lines. Five would connect the neighborhoods to Midtown/Downtown in different places and the last would act as the same loop, if one wanted to get from Inman Park to Virginia Highland, for example.

so are you imagining spurs going into midtown/dowtown or like 5 spokes on a wheel?

i see your point about transferring being a problem.

i think having Zipcars peppered throughout the Beltline would do wonders. we're not going to get people in VaHi or Ansley Park to walk everywhere. but they might be able to give up one car with the Beltline opening up new routes to local parks and shopping.

if i live on the NE Beltline and can get to Ansley Mall and Midtown Place on the trail (leaving aside rail), then I could see going from 2 cars to 1.

[rds989]

On whether streetcars are a good idea for Peachtree Street in midtown or anywhere else . . .

I spent a year working in downtown Memphis (2001-02). They've got the streetcars some on this forum seem to want for Atlanta.

The Memphis streetcars are a complete boondoggle. I rode them all of maybe once or twice the entire year, and I had as much need for them as anyone to get from one end of downtown to another. Nobody else much rode them either.

The streetcar line was extended all the way to a hospital more than a mile outside of downtown, and no one ever used the line. Huge waste.

In my opinion, streetcars in Atlanta (where, unlike San Francisco, there is no century-long cultural tendency to use streetcars and and no horde of tourists who want to ride them) would only jam up traffic on Peachtree and make the midtown more cluttered and therefore less pleasant.

Not that I don't think streetcars are pretty and fun to ride on once in a while, but I'm very unimpressed with them as a practical mode of transportation or a means of economic development.

[plorenc]

Originally Posted by ATLaffinity

so are you imagining spurs going into midtown/dowtown or like 5 spokes on a wheel?

I'm not sure. That's what I'm trying to figure out.

Originally Posted by rds989

On whether streetcars are a good idea for Peachtree Street in midtown or anywhere else . . .

I spent a year working in downtown Memphis (2001-02). They've got the streetcars some on this forum seem to want for Atlanta.

The Memphis streetcars are a complete boondoggle. I rode them all of maybe once or twice the entire year, and I had as much need for them as anyone to get from one end of downtown to another. Nobody else much rode them either.

The streetcar line was extended all the way to a hospital more than a mile outside of downtown, and no one ever used the line. Huge waste.

In my opinion, streetcars in Atlanta (where, unlike San Francisco, there is no century-long cultural tendency to use streetcars and and no horde of tourists who want to ride them) would only jam up traffic on Peachtree and make the midtown more cluttered and therefore less pleasant.

Not that I don't think streetcars are pretty and fun to ride on once in a while, but I'm very unimpressed with them as a practical mode of transportation or a means of economic development.

I think it's a matter of how it's implemented. If it's in an unimportant corridor without much preexisting movement, I think it's going to fail. The streetcar in Memphis is a heritage streetcar, not really lending itself to much besides tourist movement. However, as seen with the Portland Streetcar and the Denver 16th Street Mall Bus, adding high frequency transit service along an already important corridor can be a further boon to development and mobility.

Your comment about making Peachtree more cluttered couldn't be more wrong. Think about it this way, by adding a transportation alternative that is easy to understand and along an important corridor, you're taking that potential traffic away (http://www.cleanaircampaign.org/Take-Act...ind-Help-in-Your-Area/Traffic-Unwrapped). Besides, I think Peachtree should not be a major traffic aterial (at least in Downtown and Midtown), as there are other paralell roads to handle the traffic. I guess I could see the Streetcar being a problem in Buckhead however, as Peachtree is really the only North/South thoroughfare.

[atl2phx]

Originally Posted by rds989

On whether streetcars are a good idea for Peachtree Street in midtown or anywhere else . . .

I spent a year working in downtown Memphis (2001-02). They've got the streetcars some on this forum seem to want for Atlanta.

well, no. actually not at all. the streetcars in memphis are nothing like what is being proposed in atlanta, beit the beltline, peachtree streetcar or otherwise.

this is memphis, (courtesy of wikipedia):


this is very similar to what's proposed for peachtreee and the beltline:


plus i'm pretty sure the comparison is bad apples to good oranges.......san francisco is not atlanta is not memphis is not roswell.

[plorenc]

Originally Posted by atl2phx

this is very similar to what's proposed for peachtreee and the beltline:

I don't want to be too nitpicky, but this is the Charlotte light rail system which has dedicated stations. The Peachtree Streetcar's stations would be more like spruced up bus stops.

[atl2phx]

Originally Posted by plorenc

I don't want to be too nitpicky, but this is the Charlotte light rail system which has dedicated stations. The Peachtree Streetcar's stations would be more like spruced up bus stops.

that's what happens when i get a trigger finger trying to correct outlying perceptions of what the streetcar or beltline is.

you are absolutely correct.

this image of portland's light rail is probably more representative of what the peachtree streetcar would be like:

courtesy: rardy117 at photobucket

[jaypkatl]

Street Cars, Cable Cars and Light Rail are 3 Different things here in San Francisco. What some are refering to as Street Cars are the Cable Cars, which tourists only use. We have a Heritage Street Car line that is intigrated into our transit system. It is used by residence and tourists alike. Light Rail is what 95% of the rail transit is in the city. Light Rail is what will work in Atlanta on Peachtree street - Its a perfect candidate main artery for this type of transit. I would have rode it all the time when I lived in Atlanta. If "Street Cars" are more the idea - yes it wont work. An idea is to run a Heritage Street Car line from King Memorial to Centennial Park - making it more for tourist use.

[atl2phx]

based on all the proposals i've seen for atlanta, there are no "heritage" cars on the table.

heritage cars are generally uncomfortable, rough riding, expensive to maintain and cool, and in atlanta's humidity, something without a/c would be a bust.

additionally, you need a tourist backdrop and matches the heritage car and, frankly, atlanta doesn't offer that.

atlanta is a modern city.....heritage cars in atlanta would be a poorly conceived idea as a practical transit solution.

[jaypkatl]

If by Modern you mean Semi-decentralized with more roads then Sidewalks, then Yea - Guess Atlanta Qualifies as Modern (This is not my definition of a Modern City though)

[atl2phx]

Originally Posted by jaypkatl

If by Modern you mean Semi-decentralized with more roads then Sidewalks, then Yea - Guess Atlanta Qualifies as Modern (This is not my definition of a Modern City though)

well, there's that, but i was referring to the fact atlanta's central city building stock is mostly comprised of modern era (1950's to 2009) buildings whereas san francisco has an entire central core consisting of one block after another of fairly significant and/or historic building stock dating from 1910 to now. but i was also pointing out how impractical heritage cars in term of being modern transit solutions.

anyway......seeing "heritage" streetcars in atlanta would be a push at something we are not. kindof like seeing the horse driven carriages on the streets of atlanta, i'm always like, WTF? horse drawn carriages in charleston and savannah, sure. atlanta? not so much.

heritage streetcars/cable cars in san francisco? no problem, they fit....absolutely.

regardless, there are no plans for heritage streetcars in atlanta......killit with a skillit.

[delarosa]

Originally Posted by atl2phx

...the peachtree streetcar provides a much more pedestrian/integrated experience at streetlevel, stopping every block or so is a much more viable way to get to points of interest on peachtree than anything MARTA rail could offer, without the unreliability and stigma of MARTA buses.

aside from the point re: unreliability (as it seems they'd be sharing the same roadway and subject to delay), i think most on any of the sides of the discussion would agree. all things being equal, most people would prefer to ride in a streetcar for shorter trips, there's enhanced perception, etc.

imho the relevant questions are things like: at what cost? what's the impact on transportation in those districts, at the city, metro and regional level and how does that compare with the impact of other improvements (assuming we are indeed talking about transportation infrastructure improvement and not something more akin to tourist appeal...not that these are necessarily mutually exclusive) and their costs?

and then baked in there from my perspective there'd be a lot of questions about of the people who don't/won't take buses, how many are going to start using a tram and how often...esp considering the broader framework of residence patterns implying things like: the vast majority of people would still be using a car to get onto or near the streetcar system or will more likely than not be making trips including places not on the streetcar line and under time constraints.

ultimately, if there is an existing (in this case two: buses and rail) alternative that is (i think most would agree) not as optimal for the aforementioned reasons, it's hard to imagine that second or third best isn't possibly good enough given the variety of other transportation woes experienced by this city, metro area and state. to be further reductionist about it, if the idea is to take cars off the streets and highways (also implying that the people in those cars will as a consequence be out of those cars at some point during the trip), lets look at where most of these cars come from, go to and travel in between and put the solutions and money there.

[gttx]

Just in case anyone is interested, Atlanta is on the front page of www.bing.com today. And yes, it's a shot of Downtown from the east.