New York set to ban cars from Times Square

[mthq]

Who put a smiley face icon next to the thread title? I didn't put that there. This is now the second thread that I know of in which that annoying smiley face is next to the title despite me not putting it.

[NYguy]

http://www.nypost.com/seven/06092009/news/regionalnews/its_slimes_square__173290.htm

IT'S SLIMES SQUARE!
PIGGY PEDESTRIANS TRASHING CAR-FREE PLAZAS


THE GREAT FRIGHT WAY: The new, pedestrian-friendly Times Square is turning into a pig sty
from all the garbage left around by slobby tourists and New Yorkers.

By SHARI LOGAN and TOM NAMAKO
June 9, 2009


The Crossroads of the World looks more like a city dump these days, thanks to those new pedestrian plazas.

The cheapo tables and chairs set up in the pedestrian-only sections of Times Square have become a magnet for nightcrawler slobs who carelessly toss hot-dog wrappers, empty soda bottles and McDonald's bags on the street.

"Especially speaking of weekends, like Saturday and Sunday morning, it looks like a bomb hit," said Tim Tompkins, the president of Times Square Alliance, the group responsible for keeping the plazas clean.

Officials said they were caught off-guard by the crowds drawn to the newly car-free section of Broadway, and that the trash is one of the growing pains of the setup.

On Saturday night, the Department of Sanitation was called in to do an additional garbage-truck run just to clean out overflowing trash cans, Tompkins said.

The alliance, which gets its funding from business owners to keep the area spruced up, is revamping its cleaning staff's hours to fill a late-night gap in service from 10 p.m. to 5:30 a.m.

Starting next week, there will be sweepers and garbage collectors on a new 10 p.m. to 2 a.m. shift, Tompkins said.

"Part of it is, we don't have enough trash cans out. Got a bunch of extra cans from Sanitation, but they're overflowing. We're getting more," Tompkins said.

Yesterday's early-morning mess was mostly the work of crowds that gathered at Duffy Square on Sunday night to watch the Tony Awards on big-screen TVs, officials said.

Business owners said they've seen more trash on the streets in the morning.

"It's starting to be more messy since the plazas came," said Akram Awad, a manager at Roxy Delicatessen.

Tompkins said the mess was likely the work of residents.

"I think tourists sometimes clean up better than New Yorkers do," he said.

But some city dwellers balked at the notion.

"It's tourists. They like to sit out here, but they don't like to clean anything up," said Jason Cruz, 30, from Brooklyn.

Now's your chance to text a thumbs-up -- or -down -- when reviewing the new plazas.

A marketing company yesterday unveiled a Times Square billboard that asks people, "Are you happy with the new Broadway?" and tells them to text "Love it" or "Hate it" to its number.

[Wrightguy0]

pedestrian fail part of what makes times square so great is the iconic taxis and buses heading south on broadway and 7th the traffic, along with the number of people is what makes times square so cool. Plus blocking off Times Square will put a lot of strain on the surrounding streets, especially 8th avenue and 47th. that adds about 9 blocks on to a trip south on broadway, which is wonderful for cabbies, but not so much for vehicular commuters i mean that's a lot of traffic to cram on to 47th's two lanes

[Dac150]

This just has bad news written all over it. This is not being conducted in the right fashion, and formal plaza or not, I don't expect anything to change.

[Roaming]

Too many whiners here. And those news reports. Blah. I think this is an awesome idea! this is going to be a good plaza with New Yorkers and Tourists having some space. Before people had to walk on the streets, when the sidewalks will be to congested and I think it was way more dangerous when people had to spill onto the street.

[Roaming]

Originally Posted by KVNBKLYN

WTF? Doesn't seem safe? Allowing a tiny number of people to plow multi-ton machines through the densest, most pedestrian filled space in the country is more safe than this? How is that, exactly?

And how do you feel about Union Square? Should we rip out all the pedestrian space that was created when Broadway was closed off between 14th and 17th Streets? Get rid of the green market? The plaza space along 14th street? Would Union Square be more vibrant with more cars pouring through it?

And why we're at it, how about reopen Fifth Avenue through Washington Square? It seems unclean now with all those pedestrians and that stupid arch impeding traffic.

I agree with you.

[Dac150]

Originally Posted by Roaming

Too many whiners here. And those news reports. Blah. I think this is an awesome idea! this is going to be a good plaza with New Yorkers and Tourists having some space. Before people had to walk on the streets, when the sidewalks will be to congested and I think it was way more dangerous when people had to spill onto the street.

I take it you haven’t physically seen it for yourself, which if you haven’t I would venture to say that your perception would change. I always tried avoiding Times Square because of the high volume of tourists, but now I make it a point to stay clear. I did however, out of essential curiosity, visit this new ‘plaza’ and my thoughts were posted on the last page.

These news articles aren’t far off base, say what you want. And the images with those articles are right on the money. This ‘experiment’ was poorly planned and executed and its results are showing. Sure, it’s always nice to take in the ambiance of Times Square, but the condition and appearance makes this resemble a block party you’d find in Brooklyn, with collapsible lounge chairs and children running around with the wiffle ball.

It’s out of place, plain and simple. As I said this is not a park, but the heart of Midtown Manhattan, and this idea is a typical clogged artery. Something the city can do without.

For people visiting and who want to take in the feel of the city, yes, I can see this as a good idea. But not at the cost of those who utilize that area everyday of the year for purposes that don’t include leisure. Tourism in Times Square is not in need of new attraction, but tolerance of those who live and work in the area is running low.

[Roaming]

But you say (as well as some more New yorkers) that you tend to avoid the area at all costs. So why are you complaining about it? This is probably for the tourists then. Let them have their joy and their space. You are right, I don't live there, but my friend does and he loves it and he says that now he can actually walk in the area. And whatever you see is temporary anyway.

[Dac150]

Originally Posted by Roaming

But you say (as well as some more New yorkers) that you tend to avoid the area at all costs. So why are you complaining about it? This is probably for the tourists then. Let them have their joy and their space. You are right, I don't live there, but my friend does and he loves it and he says that now he can actually walk in the area. And whatever you see is temporary anyway.

Who’s to say that we don’t care about its appearance though? Look if they were to do something more practical for everyone, like widen the sidewalks, maybe take a lane away rather than a whole stretch, I’d be more motivated to give the change and area a chance to enjoy. To me though, they are worsening a problem. To me this is a staging area for tourists. They’re just opening up the floodgates to clog the area, and that’s when the safety concern comes into play for me.

[KVNBKLYN]

Originally Posted by Dac150

Who’s to say that we don’t care about its appearance though? Look if they were to do something more practical for everyone, like widen the sidewalks, maybe take a lane away rather than a whole stretch, I’d be more motivated to give the change and area a chance to enjoy. To me though, they are worsening a problem. To me this is a staging area for tourists. They’re just opening up the floodgates to clog the area, and that’s when the safety concern comes into play for me.

Hmmm.... Removing cars "clogs" an area. That's a new one. I guess Washington Square and Union Square are too clogged for you? Or the square that was created at Broadway and 72nd by closing one side of Broadway to cars?

And by the way, I work just down the street and absolutely love the changes - all the changes from Herald Square up Broadway to Times Square. The only problem is that they need to move quickly to make them permanent with better paving and landscaping.

[Dac150]

Originally Posted by KVNBKLYN

Hmmm.... Removing cars "clogs" an area. That's a new one. I guess Washington Square and Union Square are too clogged for you? Or the square that was created at Broadway and 72nd by closing one side of Broadway to cars?

And by the way, I work just down the street and absolutely love the changes - all the changes from Herald Square up Broadway to Times Square. The only problem is that they need to move quickly to make them permanent with better paving and landscaping.

Whatever floats your boat bud. Enjoy it.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by Wrightguy0

pedestrian fail part of what makes times square so great is the iconic taxis and buses heading south on broadway and 7th the traffic,

Um, buses make Times Square great?

And you haven't even read this thread. Seventh Avenue is open for traffic, so you can get your fill of "iconic" bus fumes.

Originally Posted by Wrightguy0

along with the number of people is what makes times square so cool.

Now there are more people, so why is it then not "cooler"?

Originally Posted by Wrightguy0

Plus blocking off Times Square will put a lot of strain on the surrounding streets,

Times Square is not "blocked off". It's opened up, to pedestrians instead of private vehicles, who comprised 90% of the traffic, but were previously shoehorned into 30% of the space.

Originally Posted by Wrightguy0

especially 8th avenue and 47th. that adds about 9 blocks on to a trip south on broadway, which is wonderful for cabbies, but not so much for vehicular commuters i mean that's a lot of traffic to cram on to 47th's two lanes

Are you a traffic engineer? The NYC DOT reports that congestion has NOT increased in surrounding streets.

[Curious Atlantan]

The cheap chairs and orange cones seem to be temporary. We can expect nice pedestrian platforms, green space, and probably the type of chairs they already have in Bryant park and other places.
As to the traffic, I guess this is a case where they finally put in practice the theory that if the more you widen streets the more traffic you get, then by applying the reverse, if you narrow down streets you should get less car traffic. Besides, by closing down Broadway you may get better flow of cars on avenues (since there are no cars coming at an angle).

[Via Chicago]

I realize NY and Chicago are completely different places; but all I can say is the State Street pedestrian mall attempted here in the late 70's was a complete and utter disaster, and was eventually re-opened to traffic in the mid 90's (which in turn ushered in the slow revival of that area)

[Curious Atlantan]

Originally Posted by Via Chicago

I realize NY and Chicago are completely different places; but all I can say is the State Street pedestrian mall attempted here in the late 70's was a complete and utter disaster, and was eventually re-opened to traffic in the mid 90's (which in turn ushered in the slow revival of that area)

You cannot compare Chicago in the 70's with NYC today. NYC today is an extremely vibrant place, people have really reclaimed the city in huge numbers. I was there the day they closed Times Square to cars, and that Sunday I strolled all over Manhattan. It was incredible how many people were on the streets and in parks.

[blockski]

Furthermore, this is not a pedestrian mall.

Let me repeat that: This is not a pedestrian mall.

This is the closure of Broadway to vehicle traffic. 7th Avenue remains open. Vehicles still travel through Times Square along 7th and on all of the cross streets. Times Square has not been closed to cars.

A more accurate way to describe it would be to say that vehicle patterns have been re-arranged and the pedestrian areas have been expanded. Traffic movements through Times Square have been vastly simplified by removing the sharp angled intersections between Broadway and 7th - therefore each intersection is simply a 4-way intersection - vastly simplifying turning movements and traffic light timing.

[dchan]

Originally Posted by Via Chicago

I realize NY and Chicago are completely different places; but all I can say is the State Street pedestrian mall attempted here in the late 70's was a complete and utter disaster, and was eventually re-opened to traffic in the mid 90's (which in turn ushered in the slow revival of that area)

You have to realize that most of the pedestrian malls implemented in the 70's were more or less last-ditch efforts by planners and businesspeople with downtown investments to revitalize dying downtowns in the face of two decades of rapid suburbanization and building of suburban shopping center. NYC today is obviously not within the category of "dying downtowns".

Plus, as blocksi mentioned, it's not a pedestrian mall, at least not in the same sense. The pedestrian malls of the 70's were built in hopes of attracting people and pedestrians to shop downtown - the problem was that nobody was shopping there in the first place, so the malls only magnified the problems downtowns were facing back then. Times Square has no such problems, since it was crowded to the brim with pedestrians before officials closed Broadway. While the implementation of the Broadway plan has been questionable and rather haphazard thus far, you cannot even compare the plan with the disastrous pedestrian malls of the 70's: they're two completely different animals.

As for everyone complaining about traffic problems that might seem like they would pop up with the closure of a thoroughfare: IMO, the Times Square intersection magnifies the problem that Broadway presents when the roads are over capacity. With Broadway, Times Square is a 3 direction intersection - Broadway, 7th, and the streets - with cars going through 1 direction, say the streets, being able to go at any single moment. That means that queues build up in Broadway and 7th as they wait. When Broadway is allowed to go, that means even more cars queue on 7th as they wait. And when the cars on 7th can finally go, only a fraction of the queue and make it through the intersection before the red light.

So, at least to me, it seems that a 2 direction intersection can handle traffic better when it's at capacity, which Times Square seems to be at a good chunk of the time.

[babybackribs2314]

I thought this was a good idea before I actually saw it myself.

It's a huge mess, and it isn't even for New Yorkers; it's all for the tourists. It's so awkward looking at people just sitting in the middle of Times Square--I don't like it. Despite what people say about the orange cones etc being temporary, it would still be awkward if it was designed to be permanent--the bits of Broadway closed off are small and just make things awkward.

If they want to get rid of Broadway, they should sell the land to developers and have them build over the new empty land. The hodge-podge of pedestrian areas as is does not work.

[Curious Atlantan]

Originally Posted by babybackribs2314

I thought this was a good idea before I actually saw it myself.

It's a huge mess.

Huge mess is good, it will address the concerns of some people that Times Square might lose its character

[Patrick]

So I got to check it out on my school trip to the east coast. Being a tourist, I totally loved it, when I first head of the idea I was totally disgusted, especially since so many supported it, at first. It was amazing, just sitting in the center of the universe with my friends gazing at all the billboards, I loved every second of it.

Of course, I was a tourist, I can't really imagine people who actually live in the city using it. I guess you can have a lunch break there or something, I saw alot of people napping, It did look messy but in a cool way.

Some pics: