ATLANTA | Development Thread V

[ls1z28chris]

Originally Posted by citywalker

Ummm...would you like to tell that to YES, Ligne Roset, SPACE, CVS, Bulthaup, Pedini, Outwrite, Candlebar, Select, Uomo, Utrecht, Barrelman, T Mobile, Eyedeology, the furniture store in 805 Juniper whose name escapes me, the UPS store, EModa, Publix, Office Depot, Hollywood Tans, the Solarium, James Madison Salon, Helmet, 3 different Starbucks, Caribou, Twelve Boutique and Flowers, FLOR, Drew Lewis which I thought would close but is now expanding to a bigger space on Peachtree, several banks including Wachovia and Bank of America that waited for two years in a trailer and is now open on Peachtree again not to mention more than 30 restaurants that I will name if you wish, Chocolate Pink, cafes, bars, cleaners, other salons/nail places, a scooter store, Mac's Liquor, Insurrection, H. Stockton etc not all on Peachtree but only 3 blocks max. from it that have all survived quite well... They may not all be glamorous but hey it is retail that people use and need. Only recently that all this new retail space came online right when the economy tanked have we had empty storefronts most of which in new buildings because most retail is halted right now. Even when other cities can't get new businesses to open we have 7 new restaurants opening soon and an italian kitchen store opening and probably more I do not know of. I think that is pretty impressive at this time. Wait until the economy improves and you will see these spaces fill up one by one. If you don't build the space out of fear NO ONE can occupy it. I'd rather have the nice, new buildings with a little empty space for now than a mad rush to try and build some space when stores want to open and have no where to go but Atlantic Station...

None of those are the high end retailers that we are talking about and that the developers are trying to entice to midtown. The only ones I've seen you list are H. Stockton in 1180 Peachtree, and eModa in Plaza Midtown (which keeps getting jacked). Basically, you just prattled off a list of common retailers that can be found anywhere in the country. The Magnificent Mile in Chicago has a freaking Bloomingdales. Do you really think a Bloomingdales could survive in the middle of Midtown when there is one at Perimeter and one at Lenox? Do you think you're going to get them to leave a prime spot that services all the northern suburbs just so you can walk there and buy a purse for your girlfriend?

As much as I want to see something like that happen, I don't think it is feasible right now.

[ashbowl]

Originally Posted by briantech

Which Slice? The one on 11th & Howell Mill?

I heard it is going to be a La Fonda, from the people that brought you Fellini's. Great stuff IMO.

[atl2phx]

Originally Posted by ls1z28chris

None of those are the high end retailers that we are talking about and that the developers are trying to entice to midtown. The only ones I've seen you list are H. Stockton in 1180 Peachtree, and eModa in Plaza Midtown (which keeps getting jacked). Basically, you just prattled off a list of common retailers that can be found anywhere in the country. The Magnificent Mile in Chicago has a freaking Bloomingdales. Do you really think a Bloomingdales could survive in the middle of Midtown when there is one at Perimeter and one at Lenox? Do you think you're going to get them to leave a prime spot that services all the northern suburbs just so you can walk there and buy a purse for your girlfriend?

As much as I want to see something like that happen, I don't think it is feasible right now.

on the contrary, i would think many of those brands ID'd by citywalker are exactly what MM advocates are looking for to fill up peachtree.

given the dismal state of retailing, it may not be feasible right now, but building out MM with national retailers is doable.

there was a time when building lenox out in the middle of the suburbs was somewhat of a gamble. given the growth of intown atlanta, i would say there's logic behind the idea of creating a retail destination along peachtree.

over time, we will see what mix of retail succeeds and thrives in the area. like all retail districts, i'm sure there will be big announcements, openings, closings and changes in the retail identity of MM over time. again, it's going to be an evolutionary process.

[gttx]

^^^ Thanks. It is important to keep in mind that planning like this is LONG TERM, and lays out a vision of what the place may be 10, 20, even 30 years from now. Without that long-term vision, it surely will not grow into a thriving retail district....with it, well, we will see.

[Atlantan26]

I am very excited to see Peachtree street develop into a nice retail district but you are not going to pull existing retailers out of Buckhead to midtown. There may be some wishful thinking but that is just not going to happen. There is a much higher concentration of wealth on the north side of Atlanta. And high end retailers like to locate near one another to generate more store traffic. Most likely anything that locates in midtown will be a new to the area concept. I personally think a saks fifth avenue or Neiman Marcus would be dull to put in midtown. We need more eclectic stores than that.

[patrick84]

Originally Posted by Atlantan26

I am very excited to see Peachtree street develop into a nice retail district but you are not going to pull existing retailers out of Buckhead to midtown. There may be some wishful thinking but that is just not going to happen. There is a much higher concentration of wealth on the north side of Atlanta. And high end retailers like to locate near one another to generate more store traffic. Most likely anything that locates in midtown will be a new to the area concept. I personally think a saks fifth avenue or Neiman Marcus would be dull to put in midtown. We need more eclectic stores than that.

I don't think the intention was ever to pull retailers from Buckhead rather to establish new ones or duplicate existing ones. Direct competition/pull would be most likely be Atlantic Station, but there are a great deal of rumors that more retailers are pulling out of that area as leases expire.

[ls1z28chris]

Originally Posted by atl2phx

on the contrary, i would think many of those brands ID'd by citywalker are exactly what MM advocates are looking for to fill up peachtree.

given the dismal state of retailing, it may not be feasible right now, but building out MM with national retailers is doable.

there was a time when building lenox out in the middle of the suburbs was somewhat of a gamble. given the growth of intown atlanta, i would say there's logic behind the idea of creating a retail destination along peachtree.

over time, we will see what mix of retail succeeds and thrives in the area. like all retail districts, i'm sure there will be big announcements, openings, closings and changes in the retail identity of MM over time. again, it's going to be an evolutionary process.

I'm sure it will happen over the long run, but it is going to be a long time before anything even remotely resembling the Magnificent Mile is built in Midtown.

Seriously, look at the definition of success from citiwalker. It is a list of retailers you'd find in any suburban strip mall, plus a liquor store and a porno shop. I thought we were talking about Neiman, Saks, Lois Vuitton, that sort of thing coming to the "Midtown Mile." Given the ghetto blaster reputation of Atlantic Station, I think a lot is going to have to change for retailers like that to set up shop in Midtown.

[gttx]

Originally Posted by ls1z28chris

Seriously, look at the definition of success from citiwalker. It is a list of retailers you'd find in any suburban strip mall, plus a liquor store and a porno shop. I thought we were talking about Neiman, Saks, Lois Vuitton, that sort of thing coming to the "Midtown Mile." Given the ghetto blaster reputation of Atlantic Station, I think a lot is going to have to change for retailers like that to set up shop in Midtown.

You really should spend more time in the city.

On that list, there are a number of retailers I would rather see in Midtown than "Louis Vuitton" or "Saks 5th Avenue." An interesting retail district will NOT pull national high-end stores (although it may have some), but rather have a nice blend of eclectic, useful, and maybe one-of-a-kind stores. If you want national retailers, go to Atlantic Station or Lenox. This is intentionally meant to be a different experience. And, like I said, it has a long way to go, but the vision is a good one.

[atl2phx]

Originally Posted by ls1z28chris

I'm sure it will happen over the long run, but it is going to be a long time before anything even remotely resembling the Magnificent Mile is built in Midtown.

Seriously, look at the definition of success from citiwalker. It is a list of retailers you'd find in any suburban strip mall, plus a liquor store and a porno shop. I thought we were talking about Neiman, Saks, Lois Vuitton, that sort of thing coming to the "Midtown Mile." Given the ghetto blaster reputation of Atlantic Station, I think a lot is going to have to change for retailers like that to set up shop in Midtown.

chicago's MM was concieved following WWII, so it's had more than 60 years to evolve.

take a look at the quotes below regarding the current perspective on chicago's MM, not only is retail there under stress, stores are closing which will open the door for the next mix of retail in chicago. the same is likely to happen regarding atlanta's MM, both in terms of taking years to realize it's full potential, but also to be shaped by the current retail downturn.

who's to say that the downturn doesn't actually stimulate retail location and activity in atlanta's MM when things start to pick up? i would say retailers have the upper hand in gaining lease concessions because the landlords are sitting on vacant space which they want to fill.

anyway, i think the next 24 months will not only be telling for the MM, i think the next few years will interesting and full of positive activity for MM.

Today the Magnificent Mile is enduring its highest vacancy rate since 1992. Retailers Lord & Taylor, Talbots Inc. and William-Sonoma Inc.'s Pottery Barn all recently shuttered large stores.

Last year the number of empty shops hit 6.3%, up from 4.4% in 2007 and just 1.0% in 2002, said Bruce Kaplan, a senior vice president at CB Ellis, a commercial-real-estate firm that conducts an annual survey on the Mile's rents and vacancy rates. "People come from around the Midwest to shop here," Mr. Kaplan said. "So it's a little bit insulated from the economy, but it's not isolated."

The Magnificent Mile -- so named as a promotional gimmick after World War II -- stretches from an east-west jut of Lake Michigan on the north to the Chicago River on the south. It actually runs just eight-tenths of a mile, but in that span counts more than 450 retailers and a who's who of high-end boutiques and department stores, including Saks Inc., Chanel and Cartier.

Last year, the average rent per square foot along the strip was just under $70 and ground-floor space averaged about $500. Mr. Kaplan said he expects both those numbers to soften this year.

For some, the rent relief will come too late. Borders Group Inc., already struggling with troubled finances and declining sales, will close its Michigan Avenue store, its largest in the U.S., in January.

[scpatl4now]

I think you also have to take into account where people will be living 20-30yrs from now. I think the population density in Midtown will be far greater than it is now as the trend is away from the suburbs to be closer in town and reduce commutes. I dont think we are going to see any new ways to move people off the freeways in the next 10yrs...so I would think the trend would continue

[Snakebit]

Because things are kinda slow, and I'm bored at work, I looked up several of the candidates for Mayor. I am going to include the positions of the leading candidates for Mayor on development issues as well as ask what you guys think regarding the candidates. Who do you expect to have the most positive impact on transportation and the city economy? Of course, these are all quotes from the candidate's websites.

Lisa Borders-

"The Atlanta region has experienced tremendous growth over the past two decades but we’ve neglected to grow our transportation infrastructure to keep pace. The resulting gridlock ultimately threatens our future growth and must be addressed.

This is an issue not only for the people who live and work here every day but also for those who visit our city’s great restaurants, parks, or historical institutions. I am committed to finding new and innovative ways to accommodate that growth while preserving and improving residents’ options for alternate forms of transportation. With both urban sprawl and gas prices on the rise – not to mention the traffic congestion that have become synonymous with Atlanta -- it’s time to put even more focus on potential solutions.

Here are two initiatives I support to help address transportation issues:

* Increase funding for MARTA. It’s our city’s rapid transit backbone and the sole means of transportation for a large number of city residents – it is unfair, to say the least, that a transit system that is used by the entire region be funded mainly by a one percent sales tax in the City of Atlanta and Fulton and DeKalb counties. I support state funding for such an important part of our transportation infrastructure.
* Make the Beltline a reality. The City of Atlanta has a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity with the Beltline – a project that will increase mobility, connect neighborhoods, add greenspace, and spur economic growth. In addition, the Beltline will create 1,200 acres of greenspace - the equivalent of six Piedmont Parks – and create bike and running paths around the city. Under my leadership, the City Council approved the Beltline Tax Allocation District (the Atlanta School Board and Fulton County then followed) to clear the way and ultimately lead to the crucial early funding necessary to get this visionary project off the ground."

Mary Norwood-

"Knowing first hand the nightmare of near-gridlocked traffic many of us experience on a daily basis, I surveyed citizens across the city to identify the our worst traffic bottlenecks and have been working since that time to resolve them. The Top 10 Worst Bottlenecks List was included in the City’s submission to the Atlanta Regional Commission’s Transportation Improvement Plan – the only empirical data outside of the Department’s internal analysis. The results of my Transit Survey have been distributed to all agencies involved in transit: MARTA, Georgia DOT, ARC, and our own City Transportation Department. I have requested an analysis and accounting of all transportation impact fees required by City projects since 2002, so that we can get to work to bring real relief to our citizens’ traffic congestion. I am the only councilmember who has attended every public hearing on the streetcar. It’s an important project because of our transportation needs, our limited funds, and our levels of taxation, and I intend to watch it closely."

Kasim Reed-

"Atlanta’s tremendous economic development and growth over the past few decades has meant incredible wealth and opportunity for our region, but it has come with a serious price. One of the most obvious consequences has been the explosion of traffic congestion which now seems like it can strike anywhere in Atlanta, at almost any time. Being stuck in traffic is bad for the economy, bad for the environment, and bad for our families.

We need to develop new transit and development options that give Atlantans a way to travel by car less frequently without sacrificing the flexibility and mobility that draws many of us into our cars on a daily basis. We need to expand MARTA’s network of buses and trains, and ensure that whatever we do in Atlanta , integrates with regional transit and transportation options as well. Jobs and other needs to travel don’t stop at the city line, and our streets are used as much by people coming through and into the city as by city residents themselves. Atlantans also need to be able to get into the suburbs for jobs, schools, and recreation, and so we must ensure that transit serves everyone, not just some. This is why I worked hard in 2008 to provide metro Atlanta voters with the option to fund regional transportation, and will try again to pass that legislation in 2009. If it passes, and I am privileged enough to be your next Mayor, I will work with the region’s leadership to ensure that we build a network of transportation options, including improving the highways, connector & neighborhood streets, sidewalks, bike paths, and mass transit.

In terms of development, we must find a way to continue to accommodate growth in Atlanta without sacrificing the neighborhoods which make Atlanta so unique and special. Channeling neighborhood-appropriate commercial development and mixed-use development in corridors will enable us to strike the balance between preserving the Atlanta we all know and love and enabling us to continue to attract new residents and businesses without overwhelming our streets and other infrastructure. We will be able to design communities where people don’t need to drive everywhere all the time, while ensuring that we can get somewhere in under an hour."

[DonTallPaul]

I don't think the presence of a store even a few miles away (in a mall or otherwise) necessarily prevents it from appearing on the MM. I was just in Chicago and there were a number of stores duplicated within a mile or two, and in some cases, literally across the street. Macy's for example has a store on MM and one on State Street literally a mile or two just on the other side the river (it's a walkable distance). Before someone goes crazy, clearly Atlanta does not have the density of visitors or residents for that to happen yet, it clearly shows that in a destination like a MagMile where car traffic is not the primary driver - they will build and operate stores in a small area if they deem the need to be there. So don't immediately discount most stores simply because a location exists at Lenox.

Also, Chicago's MM is primarily filled with typical suburban Mall style stores. There are plenty of unique stores, resturants, and high end retailers as well. But Chicago's MM is very much filled with mall like stores.

[cybele]

I was in town the other day and was amazed to see all the new office towers going up. It's impressive even if they don't have tenants.

[hokiehigh]

I wish the Streets of Buckhead development would have been in Midtown. That would really kickstart the movement to become another Mag Mile. I don't see how Midtown can pull it off now since Buckhead seems like the place to be for shopping.

In the city of Chicago, you have the Mag Mile and the North/Clyborne shopping area but all other large concentrations of national chains are in the burbs.

[SAV]

Maybe its just me, but I always thought Lenox was far from Midtown.

I think the stores in Atlantic Station can even be duplicated in Midtown. There isn't anything exclusive or expensive in Atlantic Station.

I can see a big 2 story Gap, Bannana Republic, Old navy, Guess, another flagship H&M, maybe a nike town, deisle, lacoste and others. Once more and more people move intown, you may even be able to put a 3rd store in downtown. Wouldn't that be cool to have a store in all 4 distrcits

We should also remember that there are still tons of empty condos and apartments in downtown, midtown, atlantic station, and buckhead.

Isn't there a coach in lenox and phipps? How cool would it be to have another coach in midtown and maybe a big flagship coach on in the streets of buckhead?

[ls1z28chris]

Based off of what I've read in the Magnificent Mile thread over in the city discussion forum, I think the comparison should probably be dropped. We are clearly never going to have anything close to what is in Chicago. By the time we get the density of people in that income bracket, most of those large national retailers are probably not going to want to build stores in Midtown. We're probably going to get a lot of those smaller retailers. Not a bad thing, but you can't avoid getting stuck on the comparison between the Magnificent Mile considering what they're talking about naming this thing in Midtown.

[gttx]

Agreed. The name is silly. I think Peachtree Street should eventually just be able to speak for itself. But whatever.

[skapunkskatedude]

Originally Posted by ls1z28chris

Based off of what I've read in the Magnificent Mile thread over in the city discussion forum, I think the comparison should probably be dropped. We are clearly never going to have anything close to what is in Chicago. By the time we get the density of people in that income bracket, most of those large national retailers are probably not going to want to build stores in Midtown. We're probably going to get a lot of those smaller retailers. Not a bad thing, but you can't avoid getting stuck on the comparison between the Magnificent Mile considering what they're talking about naming this thing in Midtown.

Personally, i like to call that place we are talking about Peachtree Street.

I think the opportunity lies in that this mile doesn't have to be filled with ridiculously high end retailers. Thats what the streets of buckhead (which i much prefer call Buckhead Avenue) is for. Instead, Peachtree street can be more of a bustling city street which has plenty of boutiques and smaller chains to make it a shopping destination, but also plenty of condos/apartments so people will actually live on it. Thats what will create the urban-ness i think we all desire, not just an outdoor mall.

[joecool]

I think people can call it whatever the F*#k they want. I don't think it's silly at all. P'tree st. or Midtown Mile.... who cares!

[briantech]

Does anyone have any rough numbers on exactly how many people have actually moved into midtown in recent years?

Seems to me that it should be fairly aggressive, compared to other neighborhoods.

Starting with Metropoint, followed by spire, then plaza midtown 1 & 2, then Aqua, then Viewpoint, then 1010, then 1010 phase 2.

Thats an awful lot of high density housing shooting up in probably a 4 block radius of each other in a very short amount of time.

Assuming all those buildings were full, would Midtown be considered the densest mixed (or otherwise) residential district in atlanta now?