Ottawa Rapid Transit Network developments

[p_xavier]

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

I'm thinking it could be good. The normally Toronto-centric Provincial Government would likely ensure that the calibre would be on par with what's happening in the GTA, with less of the myopic half-measures we tend to mete out of city hall and get our dysfunctional council's fingers off the details. It would be great PR for the Ontario Government and restore some sense of their tangibility and visibility in the capital since the dissolution of Regional Government (what have they done for us lately besides work on the Queensway?)

Well they can have a multiple project bid. With 3 lines planned for Toronto, and 1 for Ottawa, you can be sure that it will lower the price. It can even accelerate the process.

[Franky]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

If we start from scratch, it's done. You can forget about any light rail for the next 10 years. From my perspective as someone who lives downtown, that might not be a bad thing, eventually traffic will incentivize people to live closer to downtown and thus increase the density inside the "greenbelt".

Well, we have all kinds of studies and EAs done, it's more a matter of reviewing everything and maybe choosing routes that increase transit use instead of just replacing BRT routes. Doing things this way makes the transfer to LRT from BRT problem go away and makes more sense. Assuming they don't realize that building a bus tunnel is cheaper and better or that other modes (monorail/PRT) would work really well also...

What's a few years difference in a 100 year project? To turn a cost phrase around.

[m0nkyman]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

If we start from scratch, it's done. You can forget about any light rail for a generation.

Fixed that for you.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by m0nkyman

Fixed that for you.

I agree. 10 years minimum more likely 20 years +

[Franky]

Bellemare defends transit tunnel depth
By Peter Kovessy, Ottawa Business Journal Staff
Fri, May 15, 2009 1:00 PM EST

Ottawa's acting mayor rebuffed criticism of the city's downtown light-rail tunnel plans on Friday, arguing that boring deep below the surface will ultimately save taxpayers money.
...
http://www.ottawabusinessjournal.com/294486528717425.php

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

If we start from scratch, it's done. You can forget about any light rail for the next 10 years. From my perspective as someone who lives downtown, that might not be a bad thing, eventually traffic will incentivize people to live closer to downtown and thus increase the density inside the "greenbelt".

We were going to wait 10 years anyway.

I'm sorry but your comments about not building LRT or some sort of rapid transit will encourage development downtown is not likely to come true. A city choking on traffic will just degrade our city's quality of life, and will encourage more employment to move to the suburbs as transportation into the core gets worse and worse. This will all result in more road expansion. This is formula followed in most American cities since WWII and the result was the gutting of the CBD in many of those cities. A good transit system is critical to the long-term viability of the CBD. A bad transit system encourages even more suburban sprawl, huge roads and massive parking lots.

I am amazed by the ongoing comments from our civic politicians about the lack of funding for the proposed project and the depth of the tunnel. They continue to follow script like they are presenting a brave face for something that may very well all go down the toilet. You can almost see the sweat on their foreheads, as more and more projects get approved elsewhere. I like the justification presented on the tunnel depth as if the key consideration, customer convenience, is not an issue. I have said it before, how long will it take to descend 10 floors by escalator to the rail platform? And what about the Siemens settlement? Will part of the settlement involve building at least part of the original N-S project? How will this impact the actual plan schedule and priorities? What will we end up with? A half-assed mix of the old plan and the new Phase 1 that really doesn't serve the south or east end properly? ie, part of the N-S route and part of the Tunney's to Blair route. For example, what if we end up with Leitrim to Hurdman?

[lrt's friend]

Nice video of Transit City plans in Toronto http://www3.ttc.ca/Movies/TITLE01caption.wmv

What is happening in Toronto is exciting with the approval of the Sheppard East LRT yesterday under the infrastructure program. Construction is to begin this fall with 2/3 provincial and 1/3 federal funding. Funny how it goes. This is in addition to the previous funding announcements for the Eglinton Crosstown LRT, Finch West LRT, Scarborough RT, Yonge subway, and Spadina subway extensions. Somehow, Toronto has got its act together much better than us. Construction on the latter projects is to commence in 2010. When is construction to commence on our LRT plan? 2012, maybe??????

[p_xavier]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Nice video of Transit City plans in Toronto http://www3.ttc.ca/Movies/TITLE01caption.wmv

What is happening in Toronto is exciting with the approval of the Sheppard East LRT yesterday under the infrastructure program. Construction is to begin this fall with 2/3 provincial and 1/3 federal funding. Funny how it goes. This is in addition to the previous funding announcements for the Eglinton Crosstown LRT, Finch West LRT, Scarborough RT, Yonge subway, and Spadina subway extensions. Somehow, Toronto has got its act together much better than us. Construction on the latter projects is to commence in 2010. When is construction to commence on our LRT plan? 2012, maybe??????

Yes, and they started studying the routes at a much later date. I have nothing good to say about transit and planning in Ottawa.

[p_xavier]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

For example, what if we end up with Leitrim to Hurdman?

That was actually the proposition of city staff (well to Blair anyways), but people complained so much about having something remotely ressembling the first plan, that councillors pushed it back. So that's why the LRT part is so small now.

[AuxTown]

from http://www.cfra.com

Cullen Expects Transit Funding Announcement Soon
Caroline Franks
Saturday, May 16, 2009

The city of Toronto is getting almost one billion dollars to build a light-rail transit line in the city's north end.

Ottawa City Councillor Alex Cullen says he expects a funding announcement for the Capital in a few weeks.

Cullen says it's crucial Ottawa isn't forgotten when it comes to transit funding.

Councilor Rick Chiarelli says he agrees with a Transport Canada report which says the city is lowballing the cost of a downtown tunnel with its estimate of 600 million dollars.

I guess some people are staying hopefull. Now that we have a plan I can't see the province or the feds refusing to give us funding since Toronto is getting so much already. We may not get as much as we want or need though.

[waterloowarrior]

It's the Province or Nothing on Light Rail
http://communities.canada.com/ottawaciti...e-province-or-nothing-on-light-rail.aspx
By KENNETH_GRAY 05-16-2009 COMMENTS(0) THE BULLDOG

Two plus two equals four.

That’s the most simple arithmetic. And that’s essentially what city planning committee chairman Peter Hume was using on Thursday when he was talking to me about the light-rail project.

Hume maintains that the City of Ottawa cannot run a request for proposal (a bidding competition) for the new light-rail contract because, given the foul-up with city council killing the first project, he doesn’t feel the municipality can draw bids. Companies don’t want to spend time and money in a procurement competition only to find their agreement has the possibility of being killed by city council. What company would want to go through what the Siemens consortium has endured after being awarded the first rail contract? Who wants to end up in court?

Of course the city could sole source the project to one company, but then it loses the price competition that bidding creates.

Then Hume says the city doesn’t have the expert staff to conduct a second rail project. Many of the experts the municipality employed on that plan left. The city doesn’t have the ability to build light rail, according to Hume.

So there you have it. Two (no bidding process) plus two (no expert staff) equals either no light rail at all or the province, through Infrastructure Ontario, builds it. Hume’s comments reinforce what a few critics have been saying for months — this new rail project is a pipe dream, lines on a map, little substance.

The siting of the downtown line reinforces this view. The tunnel is too deep to create public-private partnerships with neighbouring buildings to help fund the $70-million stations. As well, the city has not obtained permission from the federal government to build a tunnel near or under important federal buildings. In addition, Transport Canada believes that price estimates for the tunnel are too low.

All this shows that the city, as Hume says, doesn’t have the expertise to build the new light-rail project. However, the province has the resources and the credibility to pull it off.

So ultimately it will be up to Premier Dalton McGuinty to make the decision. Does he want the province to administer light rail in Ottawa? Or will there be no project at all?

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by d_jeffrey

Yes, and they started studying the routes at a much later date. I have nothing good to say about transit and planning in Ottawa.

It is easier to get LRT going when you are using municipality owned corridors, ie running on or under existing streets.

I continue to scratch my head wondering why Ottawa is not following best practices used in other cities. Following the Edmonton example instead of the Calgary example. Trying to use federal parkland instead of using city streets. Trying to go under buildings instead of around them.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by d_jeffrey

That was actually the proposition of city staff (well to Blair anyways), but people complained so much about having something remotely ressembling the first plan, that councillors pushed it back. So that's why the LRT part is so small now.

We have got rapid transit planning reversed. Planning should be the first consideration. Politics and public opinion should be secondary. A good plan must include marketing which sells the concept to the public. Unfortunately, we have ended up a politically and popularity based planning process which will inevitably result in mediocrity as we try to appease a wide variety of vocal minorities.

[p_xavier]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

It is easier to get LRT going when you are using municipality owned corridors, ie running on or under existing streets.

I continue to scratch my head wondering why Ottawa is not following best practices used in other cities. Following the Edmonton example instead of the Calgary example. Trying to use federal parkland instead of using city streets. Trying to go under buildings instead of around them.

I'm quite happy about the Peter Hume comment that city staff is unable to plan LRT in the city. Metrolinx is planning the new LRT corridors for Toronto, there's nothing preventing them doing the same for Ottawa.

The agency was put up to remove small politics from transit planning, that is exactly what's needed in Ottawa.

[Dado]

Originally Posted by d_jeffrey

That was actually the proposition of city staff (well to Blair anyways), but people complained so much about having something remotely ressembling the first plan, that councillors pushed it back. So that's why the LRT part is so small now.

You're missing part of the sequence of events.

Councillors also insisted on having a west leg (like they were expecting from the TMP plan the initially passed at this time last year). So then staff went back and fiddled a bit with things, introduced the bizarre "increment" sub-phasings and declared that a west leg was being included in the first phase - but in the first phase's second stage ("increment" apparently having been renamed, possibly when someone mocked it).


Not that any of this matters since nothing of consequence will happen before the TMP is updated again in 5 years.

[waterloowarrior]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Nice video of Transit City plans in Toronto http://www3.ttc.ca/Movies/TITLE01caption.wmv

What is happening in Toronto is exciting with the approval of the Sheppard East LRT yesterday under the infrastructure program. Construction is to begin this fall with 2/3 provincial and 1/3 federal funding. Funny how it goes. This is in addition to the previous funding announcements for the Eglinton Crosstown LRT, Finch West LRT, Scarborough RT, Yonge subway, and Spadina subway extensions. Somehow, Toronto has got its act together much better than us. Construction on the latter projects is to commence in 2010. When is construction to commence on our LRT plan? 2012, maybe??????

The old NS line was actually longer, cheaper, and had higher ridership projections than the new Sheppard East line.

[p_xavier]

Originally Posted by waterloowarrior

The old NS line was actually longer, cheaper, and had higher ridership projections than the new Sheppard East line.

Which was brought up when LRT to Orleans and Kanata would have similar ridership to the Eglinton light metro. But of course, for Ottawa, ridership needs to be 10 times higher to get financing and approval.

[lrt's friend]

This all goes back to the politics of compromise. Our politicians are unwilling to tell the public that in order to get LRT going and doing a good job, we can only build in one direction at a time. Instead, we build truncated routes in every direction and put ridiculous roadblocks to extending service where ridership is indeed growing. This is all intended to give a preposterous excuse to the public for why LRT will never be extended to the suburbs in our lifetime. In Toronto, this is like creating another Sheppard subway, known by Torontonians as the 'stubway' because of its limited coverage.

[lrt's friend]

The most interesting turn of events is that the Sheppard LRT line will be fully paid by the upper levels of government. Perhaps, if we had a plan that clearly improves transit service and increases ridership, we could also get a similar funding arrangement. Of course, this city council is so pig-headed that it would never want to present a plan that really meets the expected criteria and in a timely fashion in order to get such a funding package.

[waterloowarrior]

McRae Says Province Considering Running Ottawa's Light Rail
http://communities.canada.com/ottawaciti...idering-running-ottawa-s-light-rail.aspx
By KENNETH_GRAY 05-17-2009 COMMENTS(0) THE BULLDOG

River Councillor Maria McRae, the chairwoman of the city transportation committee, says the province is considering whether to administer the city’s light-rail project.

"They haven't said yes and they haven't said no," said McRae, who added she believes the province wants light rail for Ottawa. She said talks between the city and province have been very positive.

McRae has been attending monthly meetings with planning committee chairman Peter Hume, Municipal Affairs Minister Jim Watson, transit committee chairman Alex Cullen and city manager Kent Kirkpatrick which help the province conduct its due diligence on the plan. She confirmed what Hume said last week — that the city doesn’t have the expertise or the credibility to administer the bidding process for the contract (given the Siemens consortium lawsuit on the first rail project) to build the new light-rail route.

McRae said the province has been approached to run the Ottawa light-rail project by city officials and she would support Infrastructure Ontario doing just that.

She said staff have told her they don’t have the personnel to build the new rail line and tunnel. City staff who did the last rail project have left the municipality’s employ. Furthermore, hiring people to do such a project takes time while Infrastructure Ontario already has those personnel.

“I don’t think that expertise (out of house) is easily available,” McRae said.