Millennium Line - Broadway Extension: Planning & Pre-Construction

[WarrenC12]

I know I've asked this question before, but can somebody explain to me how LRT is better than simply expanding the current 99 B-Line with:

1) more buses
2) priority lanes
3) priority signals

It seems to me that would provide the same capacity and speed as LRT, but the whole point is that capacity, and more importantly speed, simply isn't good enough.

[DKaz]

We could increase the frequency of the 99 B-Line to as high as every 60 seconds but at that point you're maxing out at 7200ppphd at significant costs. (It costs $110 per hour per bus). The problem is that Broadway is congested as it is right now and running buses at 60 seconds headway becomes a logistical nightmare. LRT and Skytrain would provide double the capacity for half the cost.

[LotusLand]

Excellent discussion here. I've noticed that one of the local blogs Vancity Buzz has added a link to your UBC skytrain wordpress site! I've messaged the writers to see if they are going to do a write up on in support of Skytrain to UBC.

We need sites like these to gain momentum for our side as the majority of Vancouver area blogs are for LRT (I'm holier than though types)

Anyways just thought I'd let you know.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by DKaz

We could increase the frequency of the 99 B-Line to as high as every 60 seconds but at that point you're maxing out at 7200ppphd at significant costs. (It costs $110 per hour per bus). The problem is that Broadway is congested as it is right now and running buses at 60 seconds headway becomes a logistical nightmare. LRT and Skytrain would provide double the capacity for half the cost.

How does LRT provide more capacity? And how is it cheaper? I'm not trying to argue here, just help me understand. LRT requires power, drivers and the vehicles themselves.

And they run on the road, subject to traffic lights. Is the acceleration really that much better? Are the vehicles bigger?

[MalcolmTucker]

^ the vehicles would be bigger, but even if the vehicles are twice as big, the most optimal human controlled rail system operate at 2 minute headways. In mixed traffic, I don't think you will get even close to that. All you need is one car making a left turn to slow everything down and cause bunching. LRT would be subject to normal congestion aswell.

Without at least a semi-exclusive ROW (exclusive transit lanes but still subject to traffic lights) LRT would not be even a marginal improvement over the current buses. If you want mixed traffic street car type capacity, buy some double or triple articulated buses, they are manufactured. That way, there could be tests to see if the system would be any good.

[DKaz]

A 2-car Siemens Avanto trainset can carry 470 passengers with 1 driver compared to 120 passengers in an articulated bus and 1 driver, so for about the 120% of the cost of running a bus you carry up to 4 times the number passengers.

Of course with a 4-car MK-II trainset you can carry 520 passengers with no drivers, so for maybe 90% of the cost of running the bus you carry 4.3 times the passengers.

I'm just throwing numbers out but either way you're saving money vs. a bus on high demand routes such as Broadway.

Originally Posted by kyle_olsen

^ the vehicles would be bigger, but even if the vehicles are twice as big, the most optimal human controlled rail system operate at 2 minute headways. In mixed traffic, I don't think you will get even close to that. All you need is one car making a left turn to slow everything down and cause bunching. LRT would be subject to normal congestion aswell.

Without at least a semi-exclusive ROW (exclusive transit lanes but still subject to traffic lights) LRT would not be even a marginal improvement over the current buses. If you want mixed traffic street car type capacity, buy some double or triple articulated buses, they are manufactured. That way, there could be tests to see if the system would be any good.

I wouldn't run manual trains especially at street level with traffic interaction at greater than 3 minutes.

I've heard from visitors that although our Skytrains are small, the frequent headways more than make up for it. Older metros have long trains because they need longer headways, and LRT would have to run 110m long trainsets @ 3 minute headways to achieve what 68m long Skytrains can do @ 108 second headways (about 17,000+ ppphd)

Furthermore, nighttime frequencies would have to be reduced with LRT because of labour costs. Because Skytrain is automated, it doesn't cost them much money to provide 4 minute service from Waterfront to Columbia.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by DKaz

I've heard from visitors that although our Skytrains are small, the frequent headways more than make up for it. Older metros have long trains because they need longer headways, and LRT would have to run 110m long trainsets @ 3 minute headways to achieve what 68m long Skytrains can do @ 108 second headways (about 17,000+ ppphd)

I agree 100%. From my experience traveling on "world class" systems like NYC and London, it can be a very uncomfortable 6-8 min wait in a hot/humid/stuffy underground station for a train. I could give a shit what size the train is when it shows up.

[DKaz]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

From my experience traveling on "world class" systems like NYC and London, it can be a very uncomfortable 6-8 min wait in a hot/humid/stuffy underground station for a train.

Maybe if NYC didn't cool their trains down to like what 10 degrees celsius it feels like lol the stations wouldn't be 40 degrees celsius and humid. I love their train system but hated the stuffy stations!

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by DKaz

Maybe if NYC didn't cool their trains down to like what 10 degrees celsius it feels like lol the stations wouldn't be 40 degrees celsius and humid. I love their train system but hated the stuffy stations!

Actually I found the overall ventilation to be terrible. I was there in July of 2008. It was somewhat hot and humid at street level, with an occasional breeze. I would have liked it cooler, but whatever. When you go down into a subway station it was somehow warmer, smellier, and with a total lack of breeze. It was painful... I was glad for the ice cold cars.

[mrjauk]

Count me in as someone who, given the choice, much prefers a system of 4-car trains every 4 minutes, rather than 8-car trains every 8 minutes (as an example).

I've been in situations before where I've had to choose between driving and taking Skytrain and knowing that I would only have to wait a few minutes at most (this is later in the evening) until a train came along was the difference maker. I think that this is the real advantage of a driverless system.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by mrjauk

Count me in as someone who, given the choice, much prefers a system of 4-car trains every 4 minutes, rather than 8-car trains every 8 minutes (as an example).

I've been in situations before where I've had to choose between driving and taking Skytrain and knowing that I would only have to wait a few minutes at most (this is later in the evening) until a train came along was the difference maker. I think that this is the real advantage of a driverless system.

Agreed. Just to chime in again on this issue, I live near Renfrew station, which is just 1 station from Commercial, and coming home late night from downtown, it always seems like a painful enough wait after the E-Line transfer. If it was much longer I'd probably drive downtown all the time instead.

[LotusLand]

Vancity Buzz supports Skytrain to UBC. I messaged the writer and the staff told me they were already on it and have a post ready in support and bash the LRT losers (their words not mine).

here is a link: http://vancitybuzz.blogspot.com/2009/05/i-support-skytrain-to-ubc.html

[DKaz]

Well duh, zweisystem being a real Carole James with his arguments. He may talk a lot but he's not doing a good job gaining support for LRT.

[DKaz]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Actually I found the overall ventilation to be terrible. I was there in July of 2008. It was somewhat hot and humid at street level, with an occasional breeze. I would have liked it cooler, but whatever. When you go down into a subway station it was somehow warmer, smellier, and with a total lack of breeze. It was painful... I was glad for the ice cold cars.

A/C systems work by extracting heat from one source (the subway cars) and dumping it somewhere else (tunnels/stations). The stations would not be so stifling hot if they turned down the A/C a bit on the trains.

[racc]

Originally Posted by DKaz

Well duh, zweisystem being a real Carole James with his arguments. He may talk a lot but he's not doing a good job gaining support for LRT.

He has been amazing ineffective. He is often very insulting to exactly the people he has to convince to make LRT a reality. His efforts actually have probably resulted in no LRT and more SkyTrain. The best thing he could do to advance LRT would be to either be quiet or come out in support of SkyTrain.

[Metro-One]

I think that is what urks me the most about this movement is myself (and most us here) are not anti-LRT, in fact we support LRT, the issue is about this specific route, in which at grade LRT is not the right choice, an extension of the M line is. I love all forms or rail, HSP, commuter, grade separated metro (skytrain), LRT and tram, and a good transit system consists of all these aspects, not just LRT!

And I must say that i am also one of those transit users who enjoy skytrain because it is fast and frequent. I can not afford to live downtown, but i sure do enjoy going there for pleasure, not to mention school and work. Most of my trips from Metrotown Downtown, New West, Lougheed Town Centre, Downtown and the North Shore are done by skytrain. But i can guarantee you i would be using my car for most of those trips if we had a street grade LRT chugging from Metrotown to those areas. Skytrain's frequency is still among the best I have ever witnessed traveling, and many of my international friends love the skytrain system, they just wish there was more of it. i have never had an international friend tell me it should be at grade, slower and less frequent

I should also add from time to time i have to go to UBC and to broadway and currently i drive there, if there was skytrain to UBC that is what I would be using, but I will no give up my car to take the skytrain part way, then wait 10 minutes for an LRT that will stop every 200 meters and travel slower than I drive. That is the reality of many people in this city. Buses and trams are only good for short feeder trips to and from a train line (skytrain), not as a main line.

[kylemacmac]

I'd just like to say that I've been lurking in the shadows for this entire thread and have done much research on this subject over the years, and have come to the conclusion that Skytrain is the best option for this route. Despite the high cost, Skytrain will provide a backbone to Vancouver's transit system for generations to come, and begin to tie the central part of the city into a simple to use high-capacity / high-frequency network like those found in many other large cities around the world. I strongly believe that while it is honorable and eventually regionally important to build the Evergreen line (Disclaimer: I grew up in the Tri-Cities) Metro Vancouver should continue the push to build a further concentrated metro/LRT network in the city centre, where it will become a part of a tightly-integrated system, rather than just a spur on the commuter trail.

Ground level LRT has its place, but Broadway simply isn't it. (Espcially considering what's already in place and the reality of building LRT on Broadway, and then of course that whole final product/capacity issue that seems to be a hot topic for discussion.)

I've done my best to spread the word about the Skytrain to UBC facebook group. I rode the B-line from Main to UBC for a year, and compared to taking a metro, it's a pretty miserable experience. Especially in the rain...start/stop, humid and barfy.

Just throwing this into the mix, and I know it's more of a transit fantasy type thing, but once Skytrain gets built along B'way to UBC then what next? Something to think about: I believe a high capacity and fast metro/skytrain line down Hastings from Renfrew-ish to Georgia, continuing down Georgia to Denman, down Denman to Davie, down Davie, and then across False creek to meet up with the Millenium UBC line near Burrard/Arbutus would help tie East and West together better, give people further out better access to Stanley Park/beaches, and provide the super-high-density West End with an immediate and meaningful transit option. The density of these areas could easily support this, and the overall downtown transit flow would increase immensely with more stations and more routes downtown.

Anyhow, that's just my rambling/dreaming, and it'd probably cost way too much, but whatever. Keep up the good work fellas. Seriously, Vancouver needs more positive outlookers willing to sift through the BS and help let people see the common sense that comes with thinking down the road...er, rails.

[DKaz]

I posted a comment that has not be accepted by the moderator Dictator Zweisystem lol.

Why are you stating that Vancouver has failed to take cars off the road yet you’re not acknowledging the fact that Calgary has also failed to take cars off the road? Calgary has over 80% automobile usage despite the high LRT use, Vancouver is about 77%.

And a few little tidbits from him:

Originally Posted by zweisystem

The SkyTrain on Broadway lobby seems focused on a single journey type: Commercial Drive to UBC. To put it mildly, that’s ridiculous.

TransLink used to have a non-stop B-Line bus from Broadway Station to UBC, the 99S. That service was discontinued because it was underutilized.

Broadway is a transit oriented street with ridership generators along its length. It needs a high capacity transit system that serves that entire corridor, one with frequent stops and convenient access.

An on-street system would move more people than the 9 and 99 combined and benefit all the residents, merchants and others along the entire street.

A grade separated system designed for end-to-end speed helps nobody along the line; it’s sole benefactors are those making a non-stop journey.

So in the interest of fairness I propose that the SkyTrain to UBC lobby pay for it out of their own pockets.

I won’t make you pay all the merchants for lost business (versus a 10% increase they would get with LRT), the residents for years of construction mess, the increased operating costs or the increased crime. All you have to pay is the difference between subway and LRT.

$2 billion spread across 40,000 UBC U-passes is only $50,000 each. Amortized over 25 years at 5% that’s just $292 per month.

Flame me if you like, but adults who pay less for transit services than my 5 year old does would be better off keeping their mouths shut lest those of us who actually pay for the transit system decide to stop subsidizing you for choosing to live off campus.

Skytrain will have all the existing 99 B-Line stops + Arbutus and Finning. What is he talking about non stop end to end?

Students live off-campus being living on-campus is expensive, as if students aren't already burdened enough with debt.

Construction mess -- because LRT will be minimally disruptive compared to a bored Skytrain tunnel.

Increased crime -- because LRT will not transport criminals

Wow! I quit. Haha.

[Metro-One]

Wow, post that anywhere you can and show how immature the LRT lobby is. If that is how they debate they obviously do not have a leg to stand on.

Also why would skytrain attract crime and not LRT?

How would an underground bored system cause more construction loses/disruptions then an at grade system?

I dont know about you guys but any shopping center / store / restaurant near a skytrain station sure gets my business over the competition.

Also I have often used skytrain for simple 2 or 3 station travels (metrotown to Joyce is a common one). And for someone who only wishes to travel short distances there is always a bus! That is what is great about the E/M lines is there is still bus service on the roads beneath for the more local traffic. Again, i layered transit system is a good transit system (why load all regional and local passengers on the same system? With that idea i guess we should have never built the WCE either. no more commuter or HSR, no more buses, just LRT!

Again, i hope anyone who reads those comments realize how out of touch with good transit systems this guy is.

[mr.x]

Originally Posted by kylemacmac

Just throwing this into the mix, and I know it's more of a transit fantasy type thing, but once Skytrain gets built along B'way to UBC then what next? Something to think about: I believe a high capacity and fast metro/skytrain line down Hastings from Renfrew-ish to Georgia, continuing down Georgia to Denman, down Denman to Davie, down Davie, and then across False creek to meet up with the Millenium UBC line near Burrard/Arbutus would help tie East and West together better, give people further out better access to Stanley Park/beaches, and provide the super-high-density West End with an immediate and meaningful transit option. The density of these areas could easily support this, and the overall downtown transit flow would increase immensely with more stations and more routes downtown.

Anyhow, that's just my rambling/dreaming, and it'd probably cost way too much, but whatever. Keep up the good work fellas. Seriously, Vancouver needs more positive outlookers willing to sift through the BS and help let people see the common sense that comes with thinking down the road...er, rails.

Personally, I'd have (a bit of fantasy in there too):

2014 - Evergreen SkyTrain
2015 - Downtown Streetcar entirely completed
2016 - UBC SkyTrain
2016 - Double-tracking of West Coast Express for frequent bi-directional all-day service seven days a week
2017 - Surrey SkyTrain extension
2020 - Fraser Valley LRT network
2022 - Surrey LRT network
2025 - Hastings LRT/tram
2026 - North Fraser DMU LRT (Marine Drive Station to New Westminster Station)
2028 - Main Street and Kingsway streetcars
2030 - Arbutus LRT
2032 - 41st Avenue LRT/streetcar (Joyce to UBC)
2035 - Expo Line SkyTrain extension to Lonsdale with possible future extension along the North Shore to West Vancouver City Centre


Basically, we only have three SkyTrain extensions left:
- UBC
- Coquitlam
- Surrey
- and possibly, in the distant future, the North Shore.

After those four, we're done with our SkyTrain network...forever.