Winnipeg | NHL Jets

[freeweed]

Funny that someone posted that Tampa ad. Over the past couple of winters I've started doing a bit of southern US hockey touring. Warm weather in January + hockey RULES. Anyway, here's what I've seen, this coming from a Jets fan who now gets to see the Flames (and occasionally Oilers) on a regular basis:

1. Nashville - this place was a complete embarrassment. Their rink was really nice but it was half full. The fans had no clue what was going on, the announcer had to explain EVERYTHING: they make a huge announcement when a powerplay starts, and when they're back to even strength - yes, during play the announcer comes on to tell you the Pred player is out of the box! Their most popularplayer (at the time) was Jordin Tootoo, I swear he got the most cheers and all the local press is about him. For those that don't follow the franchise, let's just say he isn't the most talented player. They had several big names like Forsberg and you didn't hear a peep about him. All of their "cheers" sounded like something you'd hear at a football game - it didn't sound like a hockey rink at all.

Tickets: $40 each for lower bowl, about 10 rows up on the blueline. These would be $150+ in any Canadian rink.


2. Tampa Bay - a bit better fan base, they mostly knew what was going on, but they had bloody cheerleaders to keep the fans entertained, and rock bands on a special stage to play through the intermission. It was a game against the Panthers, you'd think it would be a serious regional rivalry - no one even seemed to realize. The place used to be the NHL's poster child for southern sales, but it was easily 1/3 empty. Before the game they had a game-worn equipment sale outside. I've never seen anything like this - not just jerseys, but gloves, goalie pads, helmets. Stuff that would sell for hundreds if not thousands in any Canadian market, and it was being sold as used gear for guys who play locally (I'm not kidding, everyone was trying it on). Game worn jerseys for under $100, maybe $250 for the top players like LeCavlier. Imagine getting a pair of game worn goalie pads for your team's #1 goalie for $150. I've never even SEEN that kind of stuff for sale up here outside of charity auctions where it goes for 10x that or more.

Tickets: they had a sale on, $10 each for nosebleeds. The place was empty enough (I'm talking entire 20x20 sections with 2 people) that we easily moved up for the 2nd period and ended up sitting in seats that would cost well over $100 in a Canadian arena.


3. Anaheim - by far the best southern fans I've seen. They all knew what was going on for the most part and actually cheered in the right places (not just when the jumbotron told them to as in the other 2 cities above). Still had things like powerplays announced VERY LOUDLY so that fans could keep up. I enjoyed buying a plastic duck whistle (wish I was kidding) and blowing it very loudly like the redneck tourist I was. Oh, we got security searched and wanded when coming in, but basically if you were white they just waved you through (again, wish I was kidding - it was SO blatant).

Tickets: again we decided to check out the nosebleeds as there were plenty of tickets for sale. I think we paid about $20 which is at least somewhat comparable to Canadian rinks, but again we were able to move around freely. Entire rows empty. Also interesting to note, this was a New Year's Eve game - which are some of the most heavily sought after tickets in Canada.


My experience so far: US hockey in at least half their markets is dead, and only being propped up by corporate sponsorship. Give the economy another year of recession, and I suspect at least a dozen teams will be broke. They have no fans right now even in 2 traditionally stronger markets.

If the prices we paid for tickets in those 3 cities is any indication, and the attendance stays similar, Winnipeg could EASILY have a team, RIGHT NOW. None of those games saw 15,000 and I'm pretty sure the Moose average ticket price is higher than what we saw down there. Seriously, ice-level seats were maybe $60 if we hunted around. You had your choice of sitting just about anywhere, walkup ticket sales were possible, and if you order ahead of time you get things like free parking ($10+ value) and free food ($10+ value PER PERSON).

Contrast this to an Oilers or Flames or Canucks game where everything costs, the cheapest tickets are $30-40, ice level tix are $150-200, every game is sold out weeks if not months in advance...


Watching games in southern rinks on TV now is hilarious. The announcers try so hard to not constantly point out how empty their rinks are, but if you listen carefully they make a lot of jokes and if you know where to look, you sure see it. If you listen carefully as well, there's a tremendous difference in what the fans sound like, and what comes over the PA.

Anyway, it's all just confirmation of what we read about all the time, but I have to say - until you experience it firsthand, you really don't realize just how bad it is. It's everything the "bring back the Jets" crowd insists it is, and more.

It's a crime against humanity that Winnipeg doesn't have a team when Nashville does. As much as it pains me to financially support these jokes, I'm gonna try to hit 2-3 more next winter before they leave town. Phoenix is high on the list, I can't imagine how bad it is there.

[midnightrambler]

^^^

Yeah, I had posted the info about Tampa selling two tickets for $39. Really I think it is ridiculous.

The salary cap is good for the league. But bad for Canadians. This is why it is currently unfair:



Why should Canadians coast to coast pay for those southern teams to exist?

[ILYR]

Gary Bettman and the Phoenix Coyotes represent all that is evil in hockey.

Bettman has apparently convinced the board of governors to increase the NHL's line of credit, so he can prop up the Coyotes.

Together they are going down ...


Phoenix likely staying put for 2009-10
With no buyers in sight, NHL expected to continue to bail out troubled franchise
DAVID SHOALTS

April 18, 2009
The Phoenix Coyotes will likely survive at least one more season in the desert after NHL commissioner Gary Bettman recently received majority approval from the league's governors to negotiate an increase on the NHL's line of credit by almost three-fold to $190-million (all currency U.S.).

While the move is not specifically aimed at the Coyotes, it does mean the NHL would have the necessary funds to continue paying for the operation of the struggling franchise - which it began doing last fall, after owner Jerry Moyes became unable or unwilling to pay for its losses. It is thought the Coyotes could lose as much as $35-million this year.

An NHL governor, who requested to not be identified, said Bettman got approval to boost the line of credit with New York-based Citibank NA by $125-million from its existing limit of $65-million, although not all governors were in favour of the move.
Bettman still has not worked out the increase with the bank, but is expected to do so in the near future.
The increase follows similar actions by other professional sports leagues in recent months.
Leagues are able to negotiate better terms with the banks than individual teams, sources say, which makes cash available in a tight lending market in case some franchises run into trouble. The NBA, for example, recently increased its line of credit to $200-million.
A source close to the NHL's board of governors said the Coyotes owe the league between $8-million and $10-million. The rest of the club's debt, most of which is held by a New York hedge fund, is thought to be about $80-million.

It is estimated the league advanced as much as $30-million to the team during the 2008-09 season, but most of that was in the form of advances on the Coyotes' portion of the NHL's revenue-sharing money, plus league television, merchandise and other revenues. The club will also get about $6.3-million from the players' escrow account as a rebate on their salaries because league revenues did not match projections.

There was some speculation the Coyotes, whose attendance is among the lowest in the NHL, would miss a full portion of revenue sharing (which could be as much as $15-million) because the team's growth in average attendance this season would not match or exceed the league's rate.

But one NHL owner said the preliminary numbers show the Coyotes had enough growth in paid attendance to get a full share. Other sources have said the Coyotes bought their own tickets to help hit the target, which is not against league rules under certain conditions.
NHL deputy commissioner Bill Daly declined to comment. However, a league source confirmed the governors' approval of a credit expansion, but added the NHL still does not intend to pay the Coyotes' bills for another season.

The problem is, according to sources in the NHL and the investment banking community, the Coyotes franchise is still nowhere close to being sold, despite rumours of interested parties. The latest talk, according to one league source, concerns a group from the Phoenix and Tucson, Ariz., area, although the identity of the principals is unknown.

Several potential buyers with deep pockets have looked at the club at Bettman's request, but all declined after seeing at the Coyotes' financial numbers. It is estimated Moyes has lost more than $250-million on the team since he bought it in 2001.
Despite the losses and lack of interest in owning the franchise as long as it is tied to an arena in the remote suburb of Glendale, one NHL owner said there is little risk in advancing more money to the Coyotes.

The NHL has the absolute right to revoke a franchise at any time, which supersedes agreements such as the Coyotes' arena lease, which calls for enormous financial penalties if the team leaves before it expires in 2033.
"Even if the league has to pump $40-million into the team, there is still no risk," the owner said. "It would be an absolute last resort, but the NHL could get its money back by revoking the franchise, selling it and moving it to another city."
Several NHL and investment banking sources say the only way Bettman could sell the Coyotes is to get the City of Glendale to rewrite the lease to include an escape clause after at least two seasons. Glendale officials are willing to increase the annual subsidy of the club, but are resisting an escape clause because the city took on $180-million in debt to build the arena and losing the major tenant would be devastating.

"It's so messy to move with the long-term lease and the debt," one banking source said, adding no one can predict the outcome. "It's a mess. Anyone who tells you what's going on there ... well, it's all over the place."
The latest group to take a pass on the Coyotes is Sports Properties Acquisition Corp., an investment fund operated by a group of powerful businessmen and former politicians. Andrew Murstein, a New York businessman whose family owns Medallion Financial Corp., a publicly traded investment company, is one of the principals of Sports Properties, along with former New York governor Mario Cuomo and former U.S. congressman Jack Kemp.

Sports Properties is an investment fund created for the purpose of buying sports properties by selling shares. It has raised $216-million, and its declared purpose is to buy one franchise for between $250-million and $1-billion. The fund tried and failed to buy baseball's Chicago Cubs.
Murstein, who could not be reached for comment, has said they are looking at franchises in various sports.
One source said Murstein would only be interested in the Coyotes at a price in the neighbourhood of $125-million and if Glendale granted an escape clause.

With reports from David Naylor
and Matthew Sekeres

[wayward_prince]

looks like Toronto will get a second team decades before Winnipeg is even considered. Jets fans ..stop living in a bubble.

[hexrae]

I've taken the liberty of providing the article that triggered your inspiring post.

DAVID SHOALTS

From Thursday's Globe and Mail

April 23, 2009 at 1:58 AM EDT

A group of business people wants to bring a second team to the Greater Toronto Area, and the National Hockey League took the group seriously enough to grant it an audience.

The unidentified group met with NHL deputy commissioner Bill Daly in downtown Toronto last week, according to sources. The group proposes to build an arena at the intersection of Highways 427 and 7 in Vaughan, Ont., on land north of Pearson International Airport that's owned by businessman Victor De Zen.

[newflyer]

Originally Posted by wayward_prince

looks like Toronto will get a second team decades before Winnipeg is even considered. Jets fans ..stop living in a bubble.

I have always thought southern Ontario could support a 2nd and probably even a third franchise, but the fact remains the Maple Leafs have absolutely no interest in having a competing NHL franchise in there marketplace.


This Globe article also doesn't mention that several other potential NHL owners have meet with NHL brass in the last year, including Winnipeg's Chipman group.

[Only The Lonely..]

Originally Posted by wayward_prince

looks like Toronto will get a second team decades before Winnipeg is even considered. Jets fans ..stop living in a bubble.

Contrary to your opinion, there's a lot of people outside of Manitoba who are rooting for Winnipeg to get another team.

Just read the comments for yourself..
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/toronto/story/2009/04/23/sp-hockey-no-nhl-teams.html

But if your too lazy and ignorant to do so, i'll spare you the effort..

Originally Posted by CBC Comments

spaceman wrote:
Posted 2009/04/23 at 5:17 pm ET
And although we all love to take jabs at each other .. we all love our teams and we all love Canadian hockey, because it is better than every other country in the world. It would be great to see a Canadian division in the NHL with teams in Halifax, Quebec City, Montreal, Toronto, Winnipeg, Edmonton, Calgary and Vancouver.


SamOmnia wrote
Posted 2009/04/23 at 6:00 pm ET
Phoenix is losing more money than they ever did in Winnipeg, and losing approximately $30 million a year. They would have saved money if they stayed in Winnipeg. Places like Winnipeg and Quebec City were not given a chance, it wasn't the people who abondoned the NHL, it was the NHL that abodoned those cities. If Bettman gave at least half of the effort he gave to Winnipeg compared to what he did to "save" or i should save "prolonge" the life of Phoenix, Nashville etc, Winnipeg would still have a team.

Now its almost 15 years later, still no big US contract in the states for TV, and now we have more than at least 6 teams in the red every year. Get the teams back where people will actually come to the games and PAY to see games.

SamOmnia wrote:
Posted 2009/04/23 at 6:20 pm ET
Best option is Winnipeg by far, rich history, great fans, loudest fans in the NHL, did I mention brand new arena?

Oh wait I forgot the "MTS Centre" is too small. Right. I'm sure when Phoenix is drawing less than 5000 tickets PAID a night, 15,000+ doesn't sound too bad now does it? Of course Winnipeg wouldn't have all the freebies given away, they woul actually..make money!

Winnipeg can easily fit within top 10-15 in revenue in the league, which is far better off than places like Phoenix, Nashville, Miami, Tampa Bay, etc...



MartinaKunz wrote:
Posted 2009/04/23at 6:24 PM ET
I've never even heard of Vaughan. But, then again, I want them to move one to Kelowna and most people have never heard of that either

I'd rather see another team in Western Canada than another one in Ontario.


Your User Name must be unique. wrote:
Posted 2009/04/23
at 5:12 PM ET

Bring back the Jets and the Nords.

[ILYR]

Coyotes' cash issues could force them out

BY DAN BICKLEY, CANWEST NEWS SERVICEMAY 1, 2009

Column

The Arizona Republic

GLENDALE, Ariz. - The Phoenix Coyotes are in trouble. Read all about it.

Hey, wait. Where are you going?

Ah, the desert can be a cold-hearted place. Aside from the real big four - the Suns, Diamondbacks, Cardinals and Arizona State football - local teams here are mostly flavours of the month. Deep, emotional ties don't exist like they do in other places. The terrain is rough out here, and it's hard to grow roots.

So, how will you feel if the Coyotes pack up and leave? Will it be a dark day in our sporting history? Or will it be like the death of our lacrosse team, the one that played for a championship in 2007 and disbanded the following year? What was their name again?

``The lesson I've learned in all of this is that it's easier to hang onto a team than to lose it and try to get one back,'' said Paul McGannon, founder of NHL 21, a group trying to bring professional hockey to Kansas City. ``That would be my advice to the Phoenix area.''

Maybe you've heard some of the white noise in Glendale. The Coyotes want concessions from the city to stay afloat and attract new investors. But the political and economic climate is perilous, and activists are ready to pounce if the city bends to help a sports franchise now, when money is needed for really important things. It's a game of chicken on ice skates, and someone is going to lose.

The NHL doesn't want to leave. It would be an indictment of the plan set forth by commissioner Gary Bettman, who orchestrated daring expansion into non- traditional markets. It would be a stain on the resume of Wayne Gretzky, branding the Great One's coaching career as an unmitigated disaster. It would be fodder for all the chuckling purists in Canada, the ones who've insisted all along that hockey in Phoenix was fool's gold, and nothing more.

McGannon has heard through league offices that there will be no relocations before the 2009-10 season, and smart money says the Coyotes have one more year to make it work. But the stakes have risen considerably.

There is no shortage for potential suitors. There is great romance and interest in bringing an American team back to Canada. And just the other day, something very important happened. A representative from the NHL's players union publicly endorsed the idea of relocation.

``They have been trying to fit a square peg into a round hole for a lot of years,'' the NHLPA's Glenn Healy told the Toronto Globe and Mail.

Bottom line: The league does not want the black eye that comes with a bankruptcy filing, a requirement if the Coyotes are to break their lease in Glendale. The city doesn't want to risk losing the team, and is willing to give the Coyotes room to breathe and time to court investors. But the financial drain created by this franchise is becoming a real issue inside the game, especially when there is good money to be found elsewhere. It won't be tolerated much longer.

The city of Glendale says the NHL is now running the Coyotes, which means they've become the hockey equivalent of the Montreal Expos. The Coyotes say that nothing has changed on their end, and that the future is bright. Here's what I know: The teams that talk about relocation do it for financial leverage. They have no intention of leaving. The teams that play dumb are the ones that disappear in the middle of the night, and we all know Jerry Moyes has some trucks available, if necessary.

Once, it was a badge of honour for a region to host all four major professional sports. It was the hood ornament for a big-league market. But the NHL has become a niche endeavour, and with all the big events that come rolling through this region, it's not like we need hockey for our self-esteem. Meanwhile, the existing fan base would just go back to cheering for the Red Wings and Blackhawks.

Life can be hard in the desert. Plants come with thorns, and Darwinism rules. Sports franchises that go under are rarely missed.

It would be a shame if the Coyotes can't turn the corner, leaving many questions unanswered. They have never given the Valley the manic joy of an intense playoff run, the kind necessary to build real support. To the contrary, they've given their fan base a lengthy commute, and every reason to stay away.

What if they were closer? What if they were better? What if they had actually won a playoff series over the past 22 years?

Regrets, yes. But would you miss them?

[email protected]

© Copyright (c) Canwest News Service

[ILYR]

Breaking NEWS

Well it was just a question of time.

The Arizona Republic reported that the Coyotes filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection on Tuesday. Coyotes' CEO Jerry Moyes stated that they have done everything they can to try and keep the team in Arizona.

Jim Balsillie has already put in an offer on the Phoenix Coyotes.

According to a media release, the Blackberry billionaire's offer of $212.5 million (US) for the team is conditional on the franchise relocating to Southern Ontario.

This may not be good for a Winnipeg team, but another team in Canada will likely lead to more. That is a assuming Toronto lets them put another team in southern Ontario.

[Mille Sabords]

Woo-hoo! Bye bye Phoenix! This is sweet payback for what happened to Winnipeg in '96. Come on home, Jets. We missed you.

http://www.makeitseven.ca/

[wayward_prince]

lazy and ignorant?..I think you missed my point. sure many throughout Canada want the Jets back in Winnipeg but it is not going to happen because the market is too small. deal with it. and today Balsillie said he wants the Coyotes in Ontario.

[drew]

Let them have the Coyotes. I doubt anyone in Winnipeg really wants that cursed franchise back here. Bring on a different team with a less checkered past.

[Reed Solomon]

Originally Posted by drew

Let them have the Coyotes. I doubt anyone in Winnipeg really wants that cursed franchise back here. Bring on a different team with a less checkered past.

once they're back in Winnipeg, they're due! I put that curse on them back in 97 anyways. I suspect Gary Bettman's testicles have shrunk to the size of peas as well. Im quite thorough.

Damn Jim Ballsillie, Las Vegas, and Kansas City. They should just sit back and be patient. They'll get a chance too, and they'll save money if they do.

[Calgarian]

Aa much as I would like to see the NHL back in the Peg, it just ain't gonna happen, at least not as long as short and ugly is running the league.

[wags_in_the_peg]

I have always said 2-3 teams will relocate then it'll be Winnipeg turn. Phoenix to Southern Ontario, then perhaps Nashvile to Las Vegas or Kansas City, then it'll be Atlanta / Florida turn to go somewhere

[Mille Sabords]

Originally Posted by wags_in_the_peg

I have always said 2-3 teams will relocate then it'll be Winnipeg turn. Phoenix to Southern Ontario, then perhaps Nashvile to Las Vegas or Kansas City, then it'll be Atlanta / Florida turn to go somewhere

You're dead on there bro. Ultimately, the league wants to be where they have fans willing to pay to follow the sport. Market size doesn't matter as much as the size of the fan base. Look at the England premiership. Would anyone question the existence of Stoke City, a team that plays in a city of 450,000? Or Hull City, another small-market club in a city of a quarter-million (Kingston Upon Hull)? All these teams make money by the way, and look at their stadiums. At some point, intelligent money management has to be able to see beyond the spiteful and elitist blinders of ego-inflated dwarves like Bettman and treat the sports' fan base as accomplices in a great conspiracy. There has to be pleasure in major league sport. It's only the just reward for the perpetual anguish of waiting for the Cup.

[h0twired]

The honest truth...

With only 15,015 seats in the MTS Centre... it will take a new arena before the NHL will return to Winnipeg.

[ILYR]

Originally Posted by h0twired

The honest truth...

With only 15,015 seats in the MTS Centre... it will take a new arena before the NHL will return to Winnipeg.

I disagree here. Lets consider some numbers.

Per game ticket revenue 2007-2008 for select teams:
Toronto #1 1.9 million
Calgary #4 1.3 million
Edmonton #7 1.2 million
Minnesota #8 1.1 million
Detroit #10 1.0 million
New Jersey #15 0.85 million
Buffalo #20 0.75 million
LA #22 0.65 million
Phoenix #30 0.45 million

Winnipeg would have to bring in at least as #15 New Jersey.

The MTS centre has 15015 seats.
Thus, average tickets prices would be:
1 million revenue = $66.60
0.85 million revenue = $56.61
0.75 million revenue = $49.95
0.65 million revenue = $43.29
0.45 million revenue = $29.97

Now to put this into perspective the Manitoba Moose averaged 7769 in attendance 2008-2009.
Tickets range from 22.5-42.50

I haven't worked out the average ticket price for a Moose game, but if we assume an average ticket price of 28 then the per game ticket revenue for the Moose is:
$217,535

If the average ticket price stayed the same and the MTS centre was sold out, then:
$420,420

This is almost as much as Phoenix at $450,000. Note that Phoenix paid attendance is in dispute, so how much they actually bring in will likely be different.

Thus, realistically Winnipeg should be similar to New Jersey or Buffalo.

I would pay $50 for a game. For NHL that is reasonable.

[DowntownWpg]

The NHL (Bettman, particularly) can screw Winnipeg by raising the minimum seating requirements for an NHL arena. Remember, Chipman went with the bare minimum seating required for an NHL facility, back when the MTS Centre was built.

Unless the arena can somehow be expanded... which I highly doubt... it is nothing more than wishful thinking that Bettman or the NHL won't try to screw Winnipeg with whatever means they have available.

Unfortunately, IMO, Kansas City and Las Vegas would both have to get teams before Winnipeg would even so much as make a short list. (Yes, Vegas... the NHL seems keen to put a team there when relocation happens of an existing team. Note they are hosting the NHL Awards there this year... very odd, considering it is not an NHL city).

[midnightrambler]