Salt Lake:Official development news thread

[wrendog]

Originally Posted by Justnslcsugarhood.

There are no places in this city that cater to night life or some one who does not fit the cookie cuter life style.

Huh?

[urbanboy]

If people are living in high-rises, several floors up from street level, the nightlife won't necessarily be a bug. Also couples should stop having children if their reasoning is just to "multiply and replenish the earth," it's becoming a drain on our resources. Also, dense, walkable communities, like downtowns, can be the best places for all demographics to live!

[scottharding]

Originally Posted by Justnslcsugarhood.

Shakman, I think the issue in slc is that we are only catering to families and not to anything else. I agree with you on most of your posts but you seem to think that in Utah the family is being superseded by night life which is not the case. There are no places in this city that cater to night life or some one who does not fit the cookie cuter life style.

Yeah, that's a stretch.

[DMTower]

^^^ not that much of a stretch. All you ever hear around here is "family" this, "family" that. As if there is one standard of what a family should be.

[shakman]

Originally Posted by Justnslcsugarhood.

Shakman, I think the issue in slc is that we are only catering to families and not to anything else. I agree with you on most of your posts but you seem to think that in Utah the family is being superseded by night life which is not the case. There are no places in this city that cater to night life or some one who does not fit the cookie cuter life style.

I do not have the perception of Utah only catering towards the cookie cutter lifestyle. I have never been to Utah, however most of my perception stems from people such as all of you on the Utah Threads and through my own research. Now perhaps 20-years ago I would have had the opposite perception of Utah.

I am just trying to think of creative ways to make both sides happy as discussed on my previous posts. Ideally (IMO), I think there are better ways of having a good time instead of alcohol being a part of the mix. I also place heavy emphasis towards family life. These are just my beliefs however I do not intend to, by any means, use them in a manner that would make someone feel uncomfortable. (If someone wants discussed why am I dry and why my dissatisfaction towards alcohol, please PM me rather than asking on this thread. I do not want to see this thread become another liberal vs. conservative tennis match.)

Though I do express my concerns with "peace and quite" even in an urban fabric, I am hopeful that there will be creative ways to cater to all positive aspects of life. Realistically not all sides maybe fully satisfied. At least something maybe in place to go of off.

May I suggest something similar to Rockville Towne Square in Maryland. It has a good night life (with booz), however in a peaceful manner. The residential units above have plenty of buffer and sound deafening materials between the retail portion. Some of these establishments also cater towards live bands with minimal complaints from above according to the company leasing and selling these units.

[Future Mayor]

Originally Posted by Justnslcsugarhood.

...There are no places in this city that cater to night life or some one who does not fit the cookie cuter life style.

I have lived in a much bigger city, and now live back in SLC. While our nightlife isn't concentrated on one street, like in many other cities, there is a good amount of night life in SLC.

Please explain to me why you feel this way!

[urbanboy]

Originally Posted by shakman

Ideally (IMO), I think there are better ways of having a good time instead of alcohol being a part of the mix.

You think "there are better ways of having a good time.," but this does not mean these alternatives are "better." You can have your opinion, but it should not infringe on the public's right to consume alcohol. You do, however, have the right to quiet enjoyment. If a neighborhood bar were to actually, I mean really, infringe on someone's right to quiet enjoyment then I would be opposed to allowing a bar in that specific location. However, if religious people complain because they think the consumption of alcohol is somehow immoral and don't want their neighborhood to be "stained" by it's presence, they better think twice before people start complaining about their churches, synagogs and mosques being built in their neighborhoods. Let's build diverse communities where everyone is welcome and choices are abundant.

[WASDEN]

I don't like the phrase "family friendly" because it insinuates that alternatives to whatever it defines are "un-friendly" to families. And its my own personal fault that I equate the current definition of "family friendly" with the boring and generic. There are some people who would not raise their offspring in an urban setting for fear their kids may become contaminated with urban habits and ways of thought. I respect that because on the same note I would not raise my children in 99.99999% of Utah's suburban neighborhoods for the same reason. This will also explain why I only have 0.00001% chance of reproducing in this state. In short I shouldn't worry about it and continue the single life with the rest of the outliers downtown .

[DMTower]

^^^ I don't understand the idea that urban environments are "family un-friendly" either. Only in recent history have families even had the option of living in suburbs... for thousands of years human beings have raised families just fine in densely populated cities. The human race is still here isn't it?

[VelvetElvis]

Originally Posted by Justnslcsugarhood.

Shakman, I think the issue in slc is that we are only catering to families and not to anything else. I agree with you on most of your posts but you seem to think that in Utah the family is being superseded by night life which is not the case. There are no places in this city that cater to night life or some one who does not fit the cookie cuter life style.

From time to time I see others raising some reasonable objections to the stereotypical use of the word "family." I would be interested in hearing what you define as "cookie cuter life style." And be careful, because even a family consisting of a husband, wife, 3 kids and a dog can be incredibly diverse in lifestyle. And a home in the suburbs still doesn't back them into a corner!

[John Martin]

Heh, I find it funny how no family I've ever known has fit the "cookie-cutter" image. Unless you point out extremely vague similarities, which really aren't unique to families or certain types of people, there is no stencil for a family.

[DMTower]

^^^ True. I think what he means though is the front people put on about being the perfect little family. Especially here in Utah... I come from an extended family that puts on an extremely "perfect mormon" front, but really every single family in my extended family has major dysfunctional elements. It would be so refreshing if people could just be themselves, imperfections and all.

[Sight-Seer]

This is a good topic. I object to everything being "dumbed down" to the level of children. A good example is the local practice of editing movies to make them suitable for children. Why would an adult want to watch a movie with all the parts cut out that would interest an adult? All public events have to be sanatized so people can drag their kids to them. I don't think exposing children to the world at a young age, within reason, is a bad thing.

[John Martin]

Why exactly is that a bad thing? So, you think instead of adults trying to make their whole lives open and friendly (as opposed to just hiding their entire lives from their children as is more common in some other places), they should just expose their children to everything? Right, well I still admire a community that doesn't have to have alcohol, drugs, violence, and sex in order to be entertained and have a good time. Dumbed down? No, children must be smarter than adults if we consider that type of behavior intelligent. I say expose your children to the world, just don't make it a bad place to expose them to.

[DMTower]

I don't think that's what he said at all... he said within reason. Children who are somewhat exposed to the world around them as they grow up are probably going to be better equipped to deal with that world than kids who are coddled and sheltered growing up. I grew up in a very conservative family and I can tell you from personal experience that being sheltered actually made me a LOT more curious about the world and subjects that were taboo growing up. If you have some exposure to them and they aren't made into some great mystery kids are probably going to be a lot less curious about things like alcohol and sex before they are old enough to handle it.

[John Martin]

What does "within reason" imply? I don't think trying to make a community less focused around drugs, sex, and violence is sheltering people, it's merely making it a more appropriate place for everyone. I don't know what your experience was like growing up, but I don't think that--if the community is less vulgar--parents should have to shield their children from much at all. That seems within reason to me. Nothing is ever going to be perfect and there'll always be much to be curious about, but it doesn't have to be a daily affair or "adult" thing.

[DMTower]

I think that in their attempts to create a better place for their children, parents inadvertently create an illusion of a better place that the parents actually end up seeing more than the children. Parents become blind to the reality that their kids are learning things about sex, drugs, and alcohol from other kids and the world around them, and not learning about them from the place they should be: home. Because the parents aren't open about these things, the kids start becoming alienated from them because they are curious and they know they cant go to their parents. They start experimenting on their own. I think this happens because these parents forget what it's like to be a kid... all kids want to do is grow up, and all parents want to do is keep their kids young. This is why I think it is important for parents to respect their children enough to realize they can handle these things if you communicate with them in an adult way.

[Viperlord]

I'm curious how a lot of the current and/or previous topic is development related. I can see a vicious never ending cycle of conversation ensueing from that topic.

Can we please try to stay a little bit more focused on development related topics. Thanks.

[WeST]

Originally Posted by Justnslcsugarhood.

Shakman, I think the issue in slc is that we are only catering to families and not to anything else. I agree with you on most of your posts but you seem to think that in Utah the family is being superseded by night life which is not the case. There are no places in this city that cater to night life or some one who does not fit the cookie cuter life style.

I think you must have been tired when you wrote this. Are Utah's gay bars cookie cutter? Are ANY clubs or bars cookie cutter? I would probably fit within several of the stereotypes about the "cookie cutter" people in Utah and find it unfortunate that stereotypes are thrown around like this. I agree with John Martin that this idea is silly (yes I used the word silly). There is way more diversity of thought and practice in this state than some believe. I have found that some people pride themselves on being different and being unorthodox mainly to be a contrarian. Remember your lifestyle may make you stick out in one community, but be just a "cookie cutter" in another.

On another note... I think it is unrealistic to imagine a community where we all get to do what we want and we don't infringe on each others lifestyles, especially as cities get more dense. I think it is a laudable goal to try and create a community that is diverse, unified and inclusive of as many people as possible. In some communities they have taken such a libertarian or laissez faire approach that many people don't feel comfortable (safety and otherwise) on their own streets. This tension between lifestyles makes life interesting.

[urbanboy]

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