Ottawa Rapid Transit Network developments

[AuxTown]

Certain stations in downtown Toronto are way too close together! A good example is St. Patrick-->Osgoode-->St. Andrew. The train barely gets moving before it stops again. You don't realize how close it is until you actually walk it on the surface and it takes 5 minutes to go between all three. They could definately stand to lose one of those stations without a significant loss in ridership. I think it's a similar problem to that discussed here. The ideal would be to stretch King and St. Andrew a little closer to Union but the 90* curve prevents that from happending. So instead of losing a station and leaving a huge gap between Osgoode and Union, they just crammed in an extra one right before the curve. The difference for us is that our curves haven't happened yet and are, thus, self-inflicted. The huge curve after Rideau/Sussex that prevents a station from being too close to the U of O comes to mind as an example.

[jcollins]

Originally Posted by O-Town Hockey

The loss of the Laurier station and the proposed placement of the Sussex/Rideau one is a huge loss to the U of O and it's students. I guess someone forgot to tell transit planners that univeristy students make up one of the largest single groups of transit riders in the city. They live in central areas, have little to no money, and are more environmentally conscious than the general population so why not make it completely inconvenient for them to use transit?

I know they're still a bit spaced out but couldn't the Campus station be enough? Or does the Laurier station as it is now split the ridership between the two?

[jcollins]

Originally Posted by waterloowarrior

[B]

Both Bédard and Van Buskirk said that one solution — if the subway takes all of the heavy regional transit traffic off Mackenzie King Bridge — is for all of the local transit traffic that currently runs on Rideau Street to be shifted over to the bridge.

Wouldn't that still hurt things? Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't a lot of the foot traffic through the mall people who are going from the bridge to Rideau St to catch another bus? If there's no buses on Rideau St because they're all on the bridge, then there isn't a need to go through there, and through traffic is still hurt.

Now if I'm wrong, and people don't just cut through to catch a bus, but to access the market and what not (which certainly is the case for some) then I think this is a good solution.

[p_xavier]

Originally Posted by highdensitysprawl

Is that what the separation is in Toronto or Montreal with their CBD stations.

Between 300-350m on average for MTL.

[AuxTown]

The Laurier Station very much splits the ridership between it and Campus. Although a lot of that is because it serves people heading to Lowertown as well as students heading to the North end of campus. One thing about the maps released is that they show the station a little further North than the current Campus Station (hopefully to connect to U of O's new building), which brings it a little closer to serving the centre of the campus. I guess, considering the distance between stations in the CBD, there would be no way to justify two stations for the university. They're a pretty captive ridership group anyway and people probably need the exercise.

[c_speed3108]

Having spent many years at U of O, I have never really felt a huge need for both stations.

My primary building was at the extreme south end of campus and half the time I would walk to Laurier since buses heading east would be less full.

Also the they pushing Lees station slightly south too (they are thinking of the future mann avenue developments).

The U of O would certainly be fine with one station provided it is more spacious than Campus presently is.

The bigger loss will probably the sorta north part of Sandy hill. None the less, this is supposed to be rapid transit and lets keep it that way.

There is also nothing to say they could not add or modify some of the downtown locals to cover certain areas better for those who are either unwilling or unable to walk longer distances. This would fit into the hub and spoke model.

[OttawaSteve]

Originally Posted by Rathgrith

Has the city brought up the potential to use the old Union Station as an entrance to the proposed Sussex/Rideau Station? I know being the federal government makes it unlikely but it would be such a great entrance to the downtown with visitors who arrive from the airport (whenever the line gets extended) and the train station. Maybe its just a pipe dream for me.

Some members of this discussion board are definitely strong proponents of the idea.

Yesterday's DOTT technical briefing material still shows the Union Station building as an "opportunity," which I suppose means it hasn't been completely ruled out.

Kind of astonishing, however, is the fact that yesterday's photo op took place in the shadow of Union Station (which would have made a stunning backdrop if only they'd turned the whole setup around 90 degrees), and yet nearly no mention was made of the choice of location. None of the journalists on hand thought to ask about it. It was only as Councillor Cullen was wrapping up that Councillor Legendre (?) prompted him to say something about why the event was being held where it was, i.e. at one of the possible entrances to Rideau/Sussex station.

[jcollins]

I think one of the other factors that they had to consider, which was mentioned by others talking about the downtown stations, is the length of time between stations. From Laurier to Campus, especially with campus moving north a bit, would literally be start-stop. That could have played a small role in the Lees station moving a little north too.

[Dado]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Read the original statement again. It is poorly written. It can be interpretted to mean a total cost of $830M (it does say the cost of the entire line), of which, $600M is for the tunnel. As I said, badly written. It should have said the entire line costs $1430M, of which, $600M is for the tunnel.

My comments about the news release are based on the fact that it comes across as propaganda. A news release that is upbeat and sticks to the facts without stretching reality is what I would have preferred to see.

Point taken. You're right - for the proverbial 'man from Mars', it was really poorly written.

[Franky]

Originally Posted by OttawaSteve

Some members of this discussion board are definitely strong proponents of the idea.

Yesterday's DOTT technical briefing material still shows the Union Station building as an "opportunity," which I suppose means it hasn't been completely ruled out.

Kind of astonishing, however, is the fact that yesterday's photo op took place in the shadow of Union Station (which would have made a stunning backdrop if only they'd turned the whole setup around 90 degrees), and yet nearly no mention was made of the choice of location. None of the journalists on hand thought to ask about it. It was only as Councillor Cullen was wrapping up that Councillor Legendre (?) prompted him to say something about why the event was being held where it was, i.e. at one of the possible entrances to Rideau/Sussex station.

Thanks for that picture, I was wondering how many people showed up for the momentous occasion. About what I expected.

Hope they don't mess up that nicely done area with their entrance.

[Mille Sabords]

Originally Posted by lrt's foe

Welcome to the dark side, my friend! Keep at it and maybe we can get this one cancelled, too. Then this city will never see another train for decades!

Diesel fumes forever! MWAHAHAHAHA!

Are you John Baird?

[Mille Sabords]

Originally Posted by O-Town Hockey

The Laurier Station very much splits the ridership between it and Campus. Although a lot of that is because it serves people heading to Lowertown as well as students heading to the North end of campus. One thing about the maps released is that they show the station a little further North than the current Campus Station (hopefully to connect to U of O's new building), which brings it a little closer to serving the centre of the campus. I guess, considering the distance between stations in the CBD, there would be no way to justify two stations for the university. They're a pretty captive ridership group anyway and people probably need the exercise.

I'm not a student at uOttawa (anymore) but I use Laurier Station every day, so losing it will be an inconvenience for me. In fact, if the cross-country alignment is the one we go with, then there is room for another station between Rideau and Campus Stations. Maybe Laurier would be too close to Campus, but a Stewart Station or a Wilbrod Station just might be the right mid-point. This is not only to serve a large campus, it's also to serve the entire Sandy Hill area north of Laurier which uses Laurier Station massively.

I also agree about the downtown core. Bank Street should have a station, if only to set the stage for a future Bank Street subway. With a station at Rideau the way it is proposed under the cross-country alignment, there is room between bank and Rideau for a station. As for "Downtown West", a station could be located around Bay and there would still be enough distance to LeBreton Station.

[waterloowarrior]

Originally Posted by O-Town Hockey

Certain stations in downtown Toronto are way too close together! A good example is St. Patrick-->Osgoode-->St. Andrew. The train barely gets moving before it stops again. You don't realize how close it is until you actually walk it on the surface and it takes 5 minutes to go between all three. They could definately stand to lose one of those stations without a significant loss in ridership. I think it's a similar problem to that discussed here. The ideal would be to stretch King and St. Andrew a little closer to Union but the 90* curve prevents that from happending. So instead of losing a station and leaving a huge gap between Osgoode and Union, they just crammed in an extra one right before the curve. The difference for us is that our curves haven't happened yet and are, thus, self-inflicted. The huge curve after Rideau/Sussex that prevents a station from being too close to the U of O comes to mind as an example.

Yeah, St. Andrew to Osgoode is less than 300 metres.. a bit small. I guess one advantage for Toronto having stations that close would be to spread out the amount of people boarding so that one station doesn't get too busy. Each stop has it's own major streetcar line on top of all the nearby office buildings.

[waterloowarrior]

Originally Posted by highdensitysprawl

Is that what the separation is in Toronto or Montreal with their CBD stations.

Using live maps (rounded, as the crow flies )
College -> 480 m -> Dundas -> 510 m -> Queen -> 380 m -> King -> 360 m -> Union -> 490 m -> St. Andrew -> 280 m -> Osgoode -> 470 m -> St. Patrick - > 450 m -> Queen's Park

[p_xavier]

Originally Posted by waterloowarrior

Using live maps (rounded, as the crow flies )
College -> 480 m -> Dundas -> 510 m -> Queen -> 380 m -> King -> 360 m -> Union -> 490 m -> St. Andrew -> 280 m -> Osgoode -> 470 m -> St. Patrick - > 450 m -> Queen's Park

You need to deduct the length of the platforms, so remove about 150m for each, unless you already did!

[waterloowarrior]

Originally Posted by d_jeffrey

You need to deduct the length of the platforms, so remove about 150m for each, unless you already did!

those numbers are just from where the stations are located on live maps... just as a comparison to how far the Ottawa CBD stations were apart (700 m or so). they don't include stairs/platforms/ etc. not 100% accurate, just to give an idea..

[p_xavier]

Originally Posted by waterloowarrior

those numbers are just from where the stations are located on live maps... just as a comparison to how far the Ottawa CBD stations were apart (750m or so). they don't include stairs/platforms/ etc. not 100% accurate, just to give an idea..

Well it gives a good idea, because walking all through Eaton centre can feel long, and it'll be even longer in Ottawa.

[Suzie]

Originally Posted by Dado

This makes sense when you look at it. The platforms at Lees have to be extended from ~60 m to ~180 m. There isn't much room to extend the platforms south due to the curve and rising grade but there is room to the north under the Queensway. I don't think this will be a moving of Lees per se but rather a shifting of its centre northwards.

It's in a pretty miserable part of the city though, regardless of its exact location.

Maybe I’m misinterpreting slide 14 in the presentation, but I think it shows the station moving northwards quite a bit. It looks like there would only be a bit of overlap with the existing station (i.e., between the northern tail of the existing station and the south section of the new station).

This would move the station farther away from much of the existing development. While not the end of the world by any stretch, it would inconvenience many current users.

If such a move is required because of the curve / rising grade to the south then there’s no choice in the matter. However, if the move is driven by a desire to serve future development north of the Queensway then I have a problem with it. I don’t think there is much development potential there given its location.

[Suzie]

Originally Posted by waterloowarrior

Tunnel misses mark: business leaders

Planned route will hurt Rideau Centre, future ridership, critics say
http://www.ottawacitizen.com/news/Tunnel+misses+mark+business+leaders/1547243/story.html
BY PATRICK DARE, THE OTTAWA CITIZENAPRIL 29, 2009 11:01 PM


Ottawa • Downtown Ottawa business people wanted a subway for commuter rail, but now that the project is chugging ahead some are questioning the route of the train.

The proposed alignment for Ottawa’s downtown tunnel made public Wednesday — and cheered by several city councillors — could miss a substantial number of potential riders in the downtown business district and could hurt the Rideau Centre, business leaders said Wednesday.

The city’s downtown train subway should run farther south than city planners have plotted, said Hume Rogers, of the Downtown Coalition. He said the city’s proposed route, gradually turning north beginning at Kent Street, takes the commuter rail line too far north downtown too early. Rogers says the Downtown Coalition property owners believe a better route is to continue under Albert Street for another three blocks, then turn north at Metcalfe Street.

Rogers said the problem with veering northward at Kent Street is that it will reduce the rail line’s future potential ridership because there will be new development on streets like Slater and Laurier Avenue, rather than farther north on Queen and Sparks. Rogers said that by staying farther south, the city would be able to include buildings such as the Bell Canada tower within reasonable walking distance of the subway. City officials, however, say that their proposed gradual turn beginning at Kent Street is a better route because it’s best to avoid the creation of sharp turns, not only because of a nicer ride, but reduced wheel squealing and wear. As well, the city’s proposed route includes large stations with multiple access points.

The planners aren’t sure that stations with such good access would be possible in a route farther south.

The twin-tunnel route proposed Wednesday would run 3.2 kilometres and have stations at LeBreton, Downtown West, Downtown East, Rideau and the University of Ottawa. The Rideau Station would have three entry ports to increase convenience for riders: one near the National Arts Centre, one near the Government Conference Centre and one farther east near Rideau Street.

The Rideau Centre is concerned that it could be harmed by the proposed alignment of the subway because it would put an end to the heavy public transit traffic that goes into the centre from the Mackenzie King Bridge.

Rideau Centre general manager Cindy Van Buskirk said the centre was built 26 years ago to be integrated into the transit system, open 20 hours a day to accommodate riders and was highly successful at reviving a failing neighbourhood.

She said that if the transit corridor were no longer on or under the Mackenzie King Bridge, the centre would lose a lot of traffic.

The councillor for the area, Georges Bédard, said business at the Rideau Centre dried up during the winter transit strike and would be similarly threatened if transit riders no longer go through the place.

“This approach will basically kill the Rideau Centre,” Bédard said.

Both Bédard and Van Buskirk said that one solution — if the subway takes all of the heavy regional transit traffic off Mackenzie King Bridge — is for all of the local transit traffic that currently runs on Rideau Street to be shifted over to the bridge.

City manager Kent Kirkpatrick, attending a briefing on the transit project, said the city will develop alternatives to assist the Rideau Centre.

...

“Our plan will prevail,” said Hume. “We’re making steady and positive progress.”

© Copyright (c) The Ottawa Citizen

Glad to see that the Downtown Coalition shares my concern about the alignment. Since, unlike me, they have political clout, it will be interesting to see whether they can force some changes. It would be nice to have them come out in favour of a third station at Bank. Without their support, it won’t happen.

Transferring the remaining bus routes to the Mackenzie King Bridge would provide these routes with a less chaotic environment than Rideau Street where there is constant interference from taxis and other vehicles, too many traffic lights and pathetic bus shelters. Even though, at the end of the day, it may not be a viable option, it should at least be studied.

I still don't know how the Gatineau traffic fits into this grand plan.

[Suzie]

Originally Posted by lrt's foe

Welcome to the dark side, my friend! Keep at it and maybe we can get this one cancelled, too. Then this city will never see another train for decades!

Diesel fumes forever! MWAHAHAHAHA!

I think you would have made a better first impression if you had addressed the points that lrt’s friend made in his post. Or is “seeing another train” all that matters to you?

BTW -- If diesel fumes are what really concerns you, you can rest easy. With the tougher standards, PM and NOx emissions of diesel buses built today are a lot lower than those of buses built 15-25 years ago. Future buses will be even cleaner.