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View Poll Results: Based on options for Broadway Corridor Study, what is your preferred choice?
BRT: Commercial to UBC 25 6.16%
LRT A: Commercial to UBC OR Commercial via VCC to UBC 31 7.64%
LRT B: Main St. to UBC AND Commercial to UBC 18 4.43%
RRT: Commercial to UBC OR VCC to UBC 283 69.70%
COMBO: RRT to Arbutus/LRT to Main St via Arbutus 39 9.61%
BUS: Enhanced Bus Service for all buses to UBC 10 2.46%
Voters: 406. You may not vote on this poll

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  #921  
Old Posted Apr 27, 2009, 6:45 AM
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From the same author as the one that blogged about our Facebook group, looks like it'll be in tomorrow's Metro:




SkyTrain right choice for Metro Vancouver


In Transit by Derek Moscato
METRO VANCOUVER
April 27, 2009 5:09 a.m.
http://www.metronews.ca/vancouver/comment/article/219457--skytrain-right-choice-for-metro-vancouver

For a party that’s fighting for the hearts and minds of urban voters in British Columbia, one would think the provincial NDP would be trading off of its strong legacy of endorsing — and expanding — SkyTrain across the Lower Mainland.

After all, it was former NDP premier Glen Clark who brought Vancouver the Millennium Line, which has enjoyed steady increases in ridership since its completion in 2002.

Another former New Democrat premier, Mike Harcourt, is one of the most vocal advocates of building light-metro for our growing region. In his 2007 book, City Making in Paradise, Harcourt cites SkyTrain as one of the legacies from Expo 86 that saved Vancouver’s livability.

Even current party leader Carole James has called for more SkyTrain cars to help undo the current transit crunch.

So I was surprised earlier this month to hear NDP candidate Mel Lehan — running in the riding of Vancouver-Point Grey in the upcoming provincial election — sounding the alarm over the plan to extend SkyTrain west to UBC.

He recently organized a town hall meeting in Kitsilano to raise concerns in the community. And his effort has paid off.

Since then, a coalition of activists has been trashing the light-metro system, citing everything from cost to construction to crime.

They instead advocate for alternatives such as a European-style tram. How quaint.

But while there is a place for slower, surface-level light rail in our city, it shouldn’t be along one of the most heavily trafficked urban corridors in Western Canada.

It makes one wonder: Do any of these critics actually use public transit? Have they witnessed the brutal lineups for the 99 B-Line service at Broadway Station — or the crush of riders on the buses themselves?

One anti-SkyTrain theory goes so far as to blame it for encouraging commuters to live further distances from where they work — as opposed to just around the block.

How laughable. This implies that the average worker could afford the sky-high price tag for a condo in Kits or a bungalow in Point Grey.


Ironically, the folks who stand to lose the most from a derailed SkyTrain expansion are students, seniors and working stiffs. The same people who, presumably, are being courted by the provincial NDP.

SkyTrain is expensive, yes. But given its speed, durability and role in encouraging urban density, it is the economically and environmentally responsible choice for Metro Vancouver.
     
     
  #922  
Old Posted Apr 27, 2009, 6:52 AM
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Thats awesome, he is right, have any of these critics even seen what is happening to the areas around almost every skytrain station (well, outside of vancouver proper where cities have allowed proper zoning). Almost every station now has a growing community around it complete with condo towers, shopping centers and even office towers. The fact is skytrain allows the common person to be able to live an eco-friendly life without having to pay the massive amounts of money needed to live downtown or along broadway. Skytrain is one of the best things that has ever happened to this city.
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  #923  
Old Posted Apr 27, 2009, 7:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Metro-One View Post
Thats awesome, he is right, have any of these critics even seen what is happening to the areas around almost every skytrain station (well, outside of vancouver proper where cities have allowed proper zoning). Almost every station now has a growing community around it complete with condo towers, shopping centers and even office towers. The fact is skytrain allows the common person to be able to live an eco-friendly life without having to pay the massive amounts of money needed to live downtown or along broadway. Skytrain is one of the best things that has ever happened to this city.
Agreed! I'm not sure why anyone would be anti-skytrain? What reason(s) would they have for not supporting it? It is obviously the quickest, most efficient means of moving large amounts of people in a brief period of time. Buses are good too (we need them too), but trains are just that much faster moving people from place to place. I definitely support skytrain all the way to UBC, but not with the cut and cover method - that just ruined the small businesses that set up shop on Cambie St., - I'd rather them bore deeper underground and then get things going there.

It's good that we're getting noticed, though!
     
     
  #924  
Old Posted Apr 27, 2009, 7:43 AM
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We need rebuttals for:


Fact #7 - No, the sewer trunk is mostly under 10th ave and in the gutter lanes of Broadway. Why? Because the streetcars used the median lanes.

Fact #9 - No! Modern construction techniques for LRT means that merchants will be affected on a block by block basis, with partial street closures for a month at a time.

Fact #11 - The Hass-Klau studies found that the majority of ridership for transit comes from a 300 metre radius around each station or stop.

There is no such thing as mass transit - state mode!

Fact #12 - No tunneling required for LRT, remember the old streetcars climbed that grade. Industry standard for LRT is 8% grades (Alma); Sheffield has 10% grades; Lisbon has 13.8% grades.

Fact #18 - Untrue, as underground systems do not improve business in the region it operates, rather it drives up business taxes. New LRT lines (Portland) increase local business by about 10%.

Fact # 19 - you forget that the huge annual subsidies and debt servicing charges for metro/subway constrain investment in the rest of the transit system. Today, SkyTrain is subsidized by over $200 million annually! As well, if one can build 3 or 4 LRT lines for the cost of one SkyTrain Line, one has 4 LRT lines with a potential capacity of over 80,000 pphpd compared with 1 SkyTrain line with a capacity of 20,000 pphpd.

Fact #20 - Sorry just not true! Calgary's LRT line costs about 60% less to operate than the SkyTrain Expo Line. Driverless operation costs more to operate than LRT, unless traffic flows exceed 25,000 pphpd.

Fact #21 - Which makes it a prime example for LRT, not metro. LRT becomes cheaper to operate than buses when ridership exceeds 2,000 persons per hour per direction.

Fact #22 - As above!

Sorry to say, most of your information is about 3 decades out of date. Driverless automated light-metros fell out of favour in the late 80's, made obsolete by LRT, that's why no one buys SkyTrain!
     
     
  #925  
Old Posted Apr 27, 2009, 12:54 PM
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Disadvantages of LRT

Disadvantages
The capital cost is higher than for buses, hence the usual preference for the latter in smaller cities
When operated in mixed traffic, trams are more likely to be delayed by disruptions in their lane. Buses, by contrast, can sometimes manoeuvre around obstacles. Opinions differ on whether the deference that drivers show to trams — a cultural issue that varies by country — is sufficient to counteract this disadvantage.
Tram tracks can be dangerous for cyclists, as bikes, particularly those with narrow tyres, may get their wheels caught in the track grooves. It is possible to close the grooves of the tracks on critical sections by rubber profiles that are pressed down by the wheelflanges of the passing tram but that cannot be lowered by the weight of a cyclist. If not well-maintained, however, these lose their effectiveness over time. Crossing tracks without trouble requires a sufficient angle of crossing, reducing a cyclist's ability to avoid road hazards where tracks run along the road, especially in wet weather. This and problems with parked cars are reduced by building tracks and platforms in the middle of the road.
Tram infrastructure occupies urban space above ground to the complete exclusion of other users, and requires modifications to traffic flow.
Steel wheel trams are noisier than rubber-wheeled trolleybuses when cornering if there are no additional measures taken (e.g. greasing wheelflanges, which is standard in new-built systems).
Tram drivers can control the switches (points) ahead of them. This caused a major derailment in Geneva, Switzerland. In modern tram systems this problem has been resolved by use of switches that inhibit relocation when a tram is detected passing and/or more sophisticated means of command transmission.
Light rail vehicles are often heavier per passenger carried than heavy rail and monorail cars, as they are designed with higher durability (which means more mass) to survive collisions.
The opening of new tram and light rail systems has sometimes been accompanied by a marked increase in car accidents, as a result of drivers' unfamiliarity with the physics and geometry of trolleys.[53] Though such increases may be temporary, long-term conflicts between motorists and light rail operations can be alleviated by segregating their respective rights-of-way and installing appropriate signage and warning systems.[54]
Rail transport can expose neighbouring populations to moderate levels of low-frequency noise. However, transportation planners use noise mitigation strategies to minimize these effects.[55] Most of all, the potential for decreased private motor vehicle operations along the trolley's service line due to the service provision could result in lower ambient noise levels than without.
In the event of a breakdown or accident, or even roadworks and maintenance, a whole section of the tram network can be blocked. Buses and trolleybuses can often get past minor blockages, although trolleybuses are restricted by how far they can go from the wires. Conventional buses can divert around major blockages as well, as can most modern trolleybuses that are fitted with auxiliary engines or traction batteries. The tram blockage problem can be mitigated by providing regular crossovers so a tram can run on the opposite line to pass a blockage, although this can be more difficult when running on road sections shared with other road users. On extensive networks diversionary routes may be available depending on the location of the blockage. Breakdown related problems can be reduced by minimising the situations where a tram would be stuck on route, as well as making it as simple as possible for another tram to rescue a failed one.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tram_system#Pros_and_cons_of_tram_systems
     
     
  #926  
Old Posted Apr 27, 2009, 1:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mr.x View Post
We need rebuttals for:

Sorry to say, most of your information is about 3 decades out of date. Driverless automated light-metros fell out of favour in the late 80's, made obsolete by LRT, that's why no one buys SkyTrain!

No one buys Skytrain?

4 out of 5 of the world's newest mass transit systems have been Rapid Transit (eg. Skytrain). Only 1 (Lausanne) has opted for Light Rail technology.


Santo Domingo Santo Domingo Metro 2009 16 14.5 9.0
Seville Seville Metro 2009 22 18 11

Adana Adana Metro 2009 8 8 5.0
Lausanne Lausanne Metro[30] 2008 14 5.9 3.7
Kaohsiung Kaohsiung Mass Rapid Transit 2008 36 40.4 25.1

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rapid_transit_systems
     
     
  #927  
Old Posted Apr 27, 2009, 3:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hed Kandi View Post
Kaohsiung Kaohsiung Mass Rapid Transit 2008 36 40.4 25.1

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rapid_transit_systems
I've been to that system. All of there stations were designed in clusters so I didn't know where I was going. Also, there seating arrangement is...
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  #928  
Old Posted Apr 27, 2009, 4:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mr.x View Post
From the same author as the one that blogged about our Facebook group, looks like it'll be in tomorrow's Metro:




SkyTrain right choice for Metro Vancouver


One anti-SkyTrain theory goes so far as to blame it for encouraging commuters to live further distances from where they work — as opposed to just around the block.
it's good to have people living close to their work, which would minimise their need to commute, but since not many families will have two people who need to go to the same place, their ability to commute needs to be maximised. that could be said about anything.
     
     
  #929  
Old Posted Apr 27, 2009, 4:35 PM
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Do we have a list of the possible stations?

I think it would be better to have this in our group.


(All of the stations listed are intersections with Broadway)

My plan would have 9/10 stations. Is that too much?

- VCC-Clark Station - starts here of course [edit]
- Main - business area
- Cambie - junction/transfer station with Canada Line
- Granville - transfer to streetcars
- Arbutus - key transfer/ junction with future streetcar or LRT line along Arbutus
- MacDonald
- Alma
- Sasamat - I hope the sewer trunk isn't in the way??
- UBC - one or two stations?
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Last edited by metroXpress; Apr 27, 2009 at 10:35 PM. Reason: corrected..see bold part
     
     
  #930  
Old Posted Apr 27, 2009, 4:57 PM
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Originally Posted by mr.x View Post
Fact #11 - The Hass-Klau studies found that the majority of ridership for transit comes from a 300 metre radius around each station or stop.
If he is using this document as the source, then I find no clear indication of most rider coming from 300m around the station as there is no relationship between ridership and the ratio of pop density of 300m or 600m (the table is on page 6 and 7 of the document). And note that this is a comparison between light rail system, not light rail vs metro. And also, he doesn't include the number of riders lost if the LRT takes twice as long to travel as skytrain. <- I think there are plenty of studies in this area.


Quote:
Originally Posted by mr.x View Post
Fact #20 - Sorry just not true! Calgary's LRT line costs about 60% less to operate than the SkyTrain Expo Line. Driverless operation costs more to operate than LRT, unless traffic flows exceed 25,000 pphpd.
And the Skytrain run at least 60% more frequent than c-train? For each of the 3 lines of c-train (the entire system except the downtown area), the frequency is 4-5min at peak, 10min off-peak, 15min late night, and 10-15min weekends. Compare to skytrain, which run 1.8min at peak, 3min off-peak, 4min late night, and 3-4min weekend for much of the expo line.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Allen View Post
My plan would have 9/10 stations. Is that too much?

- Broadway Station - starts here of course
Well, if its skytrain, it actually starts at VCC-Clark, so I think the station could be:
VCC-Clark, Finning (future station), Main, Cambie, Oak/VGH, Granville, Arbutus, MacDonald, Alma, Sasmat, UBC

Last edited by nname; Apr 27, 2009 at 5:17 PM.
     
     
  #931  
Old Posted Apr 27, 2009, 5:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Allen View Post
Do we have a list of the possible stations?

I think it would be better to have this in our group.


(All of the stations listed are intersections with Broadway)

My plan would have 9/10 stations. Is that too much?

- Broadway Station - starts here of course
- Main - business area
- Cambie - junction/transfer station with Canada Line
- Granville - transfer to streetcars
- Arbutus - key transfer/ junction with future streetcar or LRT line along Arbutus
- MacDonald
- Alma
- Sasamat - I hope the sewer trunk isn't in the way??
- UBC - one or two stations?
Not necessarily. More likely to be an extension of the Millennium Line, which currently terminates at VCC/Clark station, and from previous plans, the line would run along the Great Northern Way route and cross over to Main/Broadway underground.
     
     
  #932  
Old Posted Apr 27, 2009, 5:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Metro-One View Post
I told you guys! All we had to do is get the ball rolling, look at what has already began!

If all the broadway LRT supporters came out of the wood work then why not the skytrain supporters? It is now happening!

Finally we may have an equal fight.
Wow. It just goes to show that a little effort goes a LONG way. Congratulations everyone!

The group just passed the 1,000 mark
     
     
  #933  
Old Posted Apr 27, 2009, 5:32 PM
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Originally Posted by mr.x View Post
Fact # 19 - you forget that the huge annual subsidies and debt servicing charges for metro/subway constrain investment in the rest of the transit system. Today, SkyTrain is subsidized by over $200 million annually! As well, if one can build 3 or 4 LRT lines for the cost of one SkyTrain Line, one has 4 LRT lines with a potential capacity of over 80,000 pphpd compared with 1 SkyTrain line with a capacity of 20,000 pphpd.
The debt servicing cost is actually from the capital cost of the system spitted into year-by-year basis, as Translink need to borrow to pay for the construction of the system. The same cost (although in a slightly lesser amount) would also apply to LRT too. So saying the SkyTrain cost 200mil yearly for debt servicing is the same as saying that it cost nothing to construct initially. (And also, translink owns much more assets than just SkyTrain, so I don't think the debt servicing for skytrain would be as high as 200mil per year).

To build 4 LRT lines with the same money, it will cost the same 200mil per year in debt servicing, plus more subsidy if the cost recovery is less than 100%. (Unless, well, it runs with frequency less than 10 or 15min off-peak like c-train, which is even less frequent than the busier trolley bus routes in Vancouver. By the way, skytrain's cost recovery for 2007 is 106%)
     
     
  #934  
Old Posted Apr 27, 2009, 6:48 PM
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The debt servicing cost is actually from the capital cost of the system spitted into year-by-year basis, as Translink need to borrow to pay for the construction of the system. The same cost (although in a slightly lesser amount) would also apply to LRT too. So saying the SkyTrain cost 200mil yearly for debt servicing is the same as saying that it cost nothing to construct initially. (And also, translink owns much more assets than just SkyTrain, so I don't think the debt servicing for skytrain would be as high as 200mil per year).
The SkyTrain debt is on the province's books, not TransLink's. The SkyTrain debt therefore has no impact on the level of service that TL offers.

There is no reason to believe that the money saved by building LRT as opposed to SkyTrain would have been spent on LRT. The province has a capital budget for each year and the following 2 years. As LRT systems tend to get built one at a time, any money saved would probably been used for roads or some other capital project and not more LRT.

The evidence of this is that Calgary's system is shorter than Vancouver's in spite of them using LRT.
     
     
  #935  
Old Posted Apr 27, 2009, 6:53 PM
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Originally Posted by mr.x View Post
We need rebuttals for:
Fact #9 - No! Modern construction techniques for LRT means that merchants will be affected on a block by block basis, with partial street closures for a month at a time.
These techniques are new and have only been used on a few systems. They have not been used on any system in North America that I know of. For recent LRT systems in Portland and Phoenix and Seattle, construction has lasted for between 2 to 3 years causing similar problems for merchants as the cut and cover on Cambie.
     
     
  #936  
Old Posted Apr 27, 2009, 10:33 PM
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Sorry...I meant VCC guys.....

wouldn't we have too many stations?
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  #937  
Old Posted Apr 27, 2009, 10:34 PM
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[corrected]

- VCC-Clark Station - starts here of course
- Main - business area
- Cambie - junction/transfer station with Canada Line
- Granville - transfer to streetcars
- Arbutus - key transfer/ junction with future streetcar or LRT line along Arbutus
- MacDonald
- Alma
- Sasamat - I hope the sewer trunk isn't in the way??
- UBC - one or two stations?
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  #938  
Old Posted Apr 27, 2009, 10:53 PM
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I would add a station at Oak too, just to take advantage of the hospital and offices in the area. I know it is quite close to Cambie, but stations in major employment districts are usually quite close together so I don't see having a few closely spaced in the dense Broadway corridor is that big of a deal.

I would also move the Granville station to the west side of Granville to put it closer to Burrard which also has decent employment and residences along its short stretch.
     
     
  #939  
Old Posted Apr 27, 2009, 11:41 PM
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^ Thanks Leftcoaster. I see that there is a need at Oak and it is close to VGH as well.

I noticed that the officers on the group are responsible for each station:

Finning St Station
Kingsway-Main Station
Cambie/City Hall Station
Oak-VGH Station
Sasamat Station


I think a few more should be added between Oak and Sasamat, such as Granville and Arbutus!!
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  #940  
Old Posted Apr 27, 2009, 11:43 PM
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[revised list]

- VCC-Clark Station - starts here of course
- Finning
- Kingsway-Main - business area
- Cambie (City Hall) - junction/transfer station with Canada Line
- Oak-VGH - business/VG hospital
- Granville - transfer to streetcars
- Arbutus - key transfer/ junction with future streetcar or LRT line along Arbutus
- MacDonald
- Alma
- Sasamat - I hope the sewer trunk isn't in the way??
- UBC - one or two stations?
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Last edited by metroXpress; Apr 28, 2009 at 12:17 AM.
     
     
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