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View Poll Results: Based on options for Broadway Corridor Study, what is your preferred choice?
BRT: Commercial to UBC 25 6.16%
LRT A: Commercial to UBC OR Commercial via VCC to UBC 31 7.64%
LRT B: Main St. to UBC AND Commercial to UBC 18 4.43%
RRT: Commercial to UBC OR VCC to UBC 283 69.70%
COMBO: RRT to Arbutus/LRT to Main St via Arbutus 39 9.61%
BUS: Enhanced Bus Service for all buses to UBC 10 2.46%
Voters: 406. You may not vote on this poll

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  #701  
Old Posted Apr 16, 2009, 9:47 PM
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Originally Posted by DKaz View Post
The BC Liberals estimated $2.8 billion to allow for the higher costs of boring, what's all this hee haw about cut & cover about? Maybe they're just being pessimistic because Canada Line was supposed to be bored as well. Gordon Campbell lives there, they're going to bore.
Now that would make me angry - the cost difference between C+C versus boring is not small i do not want to spend hundreds of millions so some kitsilano soccer mom can avoid excess construction noise while fetching her latte. It should still be automated and grade separated, but C+C, perhaps with precast sections (if possible) to speed construction and lots of advance notice and open houses.
     
     
  #702  
Old Posted Apr 16, 2009, 9:51 PM
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Originally Posted by mezzanine View Post
Now that would make me angry - the cost difference between C+C versus boring is not small i do not want to spend hundreds of millions so some kitsilano soccer mom can avoid excess construction noise while fetching her latte. It should still be automated and grade separated, but C+C, perhaps with precast sections (if possible) to speed construction and lots of advance notice and open houses.
One thing that I think is underrated about the elevated sections of Skytrain is the view. Think about the link between Main and Stadium. Those are some of the best views in the city. Even the M-Line out in eastern sections of Burnaby gives you something to look at on your ride.

I think the Canada Line is going to be a boring ride for long sections of C&C, not to mention louder.

What is the cost and traffic disruption difficulty between elevated lines vs. C&C?
     
     
  #703  
Old Posted Apr 16, 2009, 9:55 PM
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I also would prefer an elevated structure for this would save money, would have wonderful views and i believe they can be properly fitted into the neighborhood (Richmond is doing a great job with the #3 road and it looks more like a city than ever now) but such a proposal will never fly with the NIMBYs in that area, so don't even consider it, I have dropped that idea of my radar months and months ago, our only hope now is a sub grade skytrain extension (although it still should be elevated through the industrial area past VCC-Clark and out towards the UBC area).
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  #704  
Old Posted Apr 16, 2009, 10:21 PM
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Heck yes for the Pro-Skytrain group!

And while we're at it, we can recruit for Kno to the Knoll.
     
     
  #705  
Old Posted Apr 16, 2009, 10:42 PM
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Originally Posted by mezzanine View Post
He tends to be fuzzy about quoting details wrt tram vs LRT, leading to very, very optimistic numbers.
Regarding ridership, it is worse than fuzzy, he doesn't bother even trying to estimate ridership, new riders, people switching from automobiles or passenger kilometers.

In his comparison of the Portland streetcar with the SkyTrain UBC Line, he compared cost per km but didn't bother doing capital cost per rider because probably, they are actually around equal. If he would have done capital cost per passenger km, I the Portland streetcar performs worse than the SkyTrain UBC line in spite of the Portland Streetcar being free. Even worse, it is not even an apples and oranges comparison. More like apples vs. beef.

The capital cost per daily rider on the Portland street car is around $25,000, while assuming the ridership on the UBC Line would be around 200,000 per day, the cost per rider would be around $14,000. As the faster UBC Line would encourage people to make longer trips than on a slower street car, the cost per passenger km would even lower for the UBC Line than a street car network.

Condon states the average tram trip is 2km while the average SkyTrain trip is 10km so the cost per daily passenger km of the Portland streetcar is $12,500 while it is only $1400 for SkyTrain UBC.

He at least should have compared the Portland LRT, which is a similar beast but still likely would not compare
     
     
  #706  
Old Posted Apr 16, 2009, 11:34 PM
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Bravo

Bravo!

I am going to print this out and use this at the next public meeting of the anti-Skytrain NIMBY association. I, for the life of me, can't fathom why people don't understand the difference between a tram line and a skytrain/subway type system. One is a rapid transit system; the other (for Broadway, anyway) is worse than the buses we currently have.

As for more buses, etc., absolutely. But we have to plan our transit system for the next 30, 40 years, and it is absolutely necessary for our region to build the infrastructure backbone of any transit sysytem, which amounts to building rapid transit (in the form of subways/skytrains, passenger rail).

Having this system in place means you can use buses, trams, and other transportation much more efficiently.



Quote:
Originally Posted by racc View Post
Regarding ridership, it is worse than fuzzy, he doesn't bother even trying to estimate ridership, new riders, people switching from automobiles or passenger kilometers.

In his comparison of the Portland streetcar with the SkyTrain UBC Line, he compared cost per km but didn't bother doing capital cost per rider because probably, they are actually around equal. If he would have done capital cost per passenger km, I the Portland streetcar performs worse than the SkyTrain UBC line in spite of the Portland Streetcar being free. Even worse, it is not even an apples and oranges comparison. More like apples vs. beef.

The capital cost per daily rider on the Portland street car is around $25,000, while assuming the ridership on the UBC Line would be around 200,000 per day, the cost per rider would be around $14,000. As the faster UBC Line would encourage people to make longer trips than on a slower street car, the cost per passenger km would even lower for the UBC Line than a street car network.

Condon states the average tram trip is 2km while the average SkyTrain trip is 10km so the cost per daily passenger km of the Portland streetcar is $12,500 while it is only $1400 for SkyTrain UBC.

He at least should have compared the Portland LRT, which is a similar beast but still likely would not compare
     
     
  #707  
Old Posted Apr 17, 2009, 12:12 AM
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West Broadway merchants fear Cambie Street-like chaos


BY BY GERRY BELLETT, VANCOUVER SUNAPRIL 16, 2009 5:02 PMBE THE FIRST TO POST A COMMENT


VANCOUVER -- After seeing what happened to Cambie Street, merchants and residents along West Broadway say they don’t want a SkyTrain extension through the area to serve the University of B.C.

The provincial government’s 2008 transit plan calls for a new $3-billion rapid transit system to UBC along the Broadway corridor to be built by 2020.

But more than 150 residents and merchants who attended a public meeting in Kitsilano this week voted unanimously to tell TransLink and the provincial government that they don’t want an overhead SkyTrain system, nor one that runs underground.

“We want them to get the message that the people just don’t want it,” said Donna Dobo, owner of Just Imagine, a clothing store on West Broadway.

“We are in favour of improving rapid transit, but it has to be sustainable, affordable, and community-friendly, which basically describes the Portland system of light-rail trolleys that use overhead power,” Dobo said.

The $3-billion price tag is a giveaway that the government wants to extend the SkyTrain system along the length of Broadway, she said, as the other options would be far cheaper.

“We want a system that will have many stops along Broadway that will serve our community, too, not just something to bring people from Coquitlam to UBC,” said Dobo, who is a member of the West Broadway Business Association.

The meeting was organized by community activist Mel Lehan, who is the NDP candidate in the Vancouver Point Grey riding now held by Premier Gordon Campbell.

Lehan said the number of people who turned out showed the level of concern.

“They don’t want something imposed on them. They’ve seen the chaos caused on Cambie Street (by the Canada Line). Broadway, as it is, would never survive that. It would no longer be the kind of neighbourhood we would want to live in,” Lehan said.

Dobo said the WBBA wants assurances from the government that merchants would be compensated for loss of income as a result of any rapid transit system being built.

“We need to be able to survive it. We don’t want to end up like Cambie,” she said.

Merchants along the street have begun amending leases when they come up for renewal so they won’t be stuck with long-term leases in the event that protracted construction closes Broadway, Dobo said.

“Cambie merchants were caught flat-footed. They lied to them about what was going to happen. Now no one trusts TransLink. That’s why everyone is shortening their lease,” she said.

“I’ve gone from a five-year to a two-year lease because I can’t afford to lose my home or my business. It’s a question of, either you help us survive or we’ll have to leave.

“And if that happens, the whole thing that people love about this area will fall apart,” she said.

TransLink official Ken Hardie said it was premature to say what sort of system will be built.

This week, TransLink commissioned British transportation consultants, Steer Davies Gleave, to produce a report on various rapid transit options for the UBC link.

“There are some misconceptions that are causing undue anxiety,” Hardie said, “for one, the idea that there will be a cut-and-cover operation similar to what occurred on Cambie.

“No decision has been made on the technology, the route or if the system is to be above ground or below.”

He said a number of types of rapid transit could be used on the route besides SkyTrain.

Hardie said expects the Steer Davies Gleave report to be completed by September.

[email protected]

© Copyright (c) The Vancouver Sun

http://www.vancouversun.com/West+Broadwa...bie+Street+like+chaos/1503375/story.html



G'ah! Ignorance! I hate it.
     
     
  #708  
Old Posted Apr 17, 2009, 12:29 AM
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UBC Rapid Transit Discussion

Ok, the time has come, it looks like things are starting to get serious and out of control with misinformation regarding mass transit in the Broadway community, it is now time to fight fire with fire. The UBC extension thread's poll overwhelmingly supports skytrain the entire length to UBC, at 83% I believe, and i am sure we would have the overwhelming support of the UBC student body, and it is time that we created our own group.

Essentially, we need to develop proper comparisons between what skytrain and LRT would offer the route and why skytrain is the superior choice.

We need concrete studies and figures to show what the pro-LRT/tram advocates are displaying is unsustainable and a waste of money, racc i am looking at you for this, you seem to have some very good stats and figures.

We need to have a meeting soon on this, we should also find someone who is good with developing websites.

I myself work heavily with video and theater, i could easily make pro-skytrain videos and i have won many public speaking contests, have acted as the PR for several environmental groups in my past and have had professional voice training, so i would be more than happy to act as a spokesperson if needed, but i would need the proper info.

Of course we are all busy people, i for one am quite busy with work and school, but if we have many people for every role then the work load could become light for everyone.

Does this sound feasible to anyone else?

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Last edited by deasine; Apr 18, 2009 at 8:52 PM.
     
     
  #709  
Old Posted Apr 17, 2009, 12:31 AM
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I should note i will be going to Japan again within a few months and while there i could get video and pictures (all copy right free since it would be my work) of how true metros are far superior to LRT in such crowded and busy corridors. There is a good chance while there i will be spending some time in Sapporo which has a metro-population almost exactly the same as Vancouver's and has a decent metro system.
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  #710  
Old Posted Apr 17, 2009, 12:39 AM
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Ignorant dolts. What we need is a simple flyer passed out to businesses on West Broadway stating some informative facts on what rail system is advantageous.
     
     
  #711  
Old Posted Apr 17, 2009, 12:43 AM
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Beyond Alma St. it'd be at grade wouldn't it?
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  #712  
Old Posted Apr 17, 2009, 12:45 AM
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Originally Posted by CBeats View Post
“We want a system that will have many stops along Broadway that will serve our community, too, not just something to bring people from Coquitlam to UBC,” said Dobo, who is a member of the West Broadway Business Association.
Well there goes the concept of rapid transit...

"A system that will have many stops"=bus.
     
     
  #713  
Old Posted Apr 17, 2009, 12:48 AM
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Condon makes $109,354 a year according to the vancouver sun. I think I'd rather a prius for every student than trams. What the hell is this guy thinking.
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  #714  
Old Posted Apr 17, 2009, 12:49 AM
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I'm in. I'll see what engineers I can get aboard at UBC, I know a fair number of AMS politico types as well.
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  #715  
Old Posted Apr 17, 2009, 12:57 AM
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I can't believe that woman has the audacity to say that "people don't want" the extension. And 99 B-Line busses pass her store every day, crammed with people who would 100% prefer to ride the SkyTrain over the bus. It's baffling.
     
     
  #716  
Old Posted Apr 17, 2009, 12:57 AM
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I fail to see how a tram/non grade separated LRT would be better than the current B-Line/trolley buses. The problem is the Broadway corridor needs both rapid transit and frequent local service. The naysayers and NIMBYs need to realize that building anything is going to be disruptive, but doing nothing is also not an option.
     
     
  #717  
Old Posted Apr 17, 2009, 12:58 AM
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I understand where these West Broadway merchants are coming from. It's very disappointing, though, to see them conceal what is essentially a financial issue behind a facade of talk about "community friendliness". In their effort to recruit armchair activists, they risk forcing Translink into building an expensive and useless system like LRT that would not offer an improvement in any sense over the current B-Line busses.

I think the solution might be in offering to guarantee to business owners a percentage of income averaged over previous years. Sort of an ad-hoc system of employment insurance. Obviously, any pledge from Translink or the Provincial Government to "top up" any shortfall in earnings would add a significant cost to the project. At the same time, however, by removing the requirement to schedule construction in such a way as to minimize impact on businesses, they would likely be able to find other cost savings.

I'm not in the construction business or a business owner on Broadway so I'm not sure if the saving would cover the additional expense, but we need to reach some sort of solution to these issues or else face similar tactics every time a new infrastructure project is proposed.

As an aside, and recognizing that this is probably impossible from a political standpoint: Why not, following the opening of the line, require businesses who had opted into the compensation program to repay a percentage of revenue increases until they have paid as much into the program as they received? Take that NIMBOS!
     
     
  #718  
Old Posted Apr 17, 2009, 1:01 AM
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Bring it on!!
     
     
  #719  
Old Posted Apr 17, 2009, 1:01 AM
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Sounds like a good idea to me, especially after that article in the Vancouver Sun: http://www.vancouversun.com/West+Broadwa...bie+Street+like+chaos/1503375/story.html
     
     
  #720  
Old Posted Apr 17, 2009, 1:10 AM
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As long as BC Liberals get re-elected, the line will get built, C/C or tunneled, or most likely, a combination.
Even with the NDP elected, they would find it difficult to cancel projects already announced.
Almost everyone that lives in UBC, or anyone that works or studies there wants the line to get built.
I sympathize with people that live and work on broadway not wanting
what happened on cambie to happen there.
But I'm sure if you asked them if they would rather have A) light rail
with on street construction and removal of street lanes and parking lanes
B) tunneled skytrain C) C/C and tunneled skytrain combination on 10th,
no one would want light rail.
     
     
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