South Fraser Perimeter Road/Highway 17 Extension | Completed

[officedweller]

That's the "North Fraser Perimeter Road" - which is really a bunch of piecemeal improvements to existing roads. The new Pitt River Bridge is the current focus of the project at the moment. There is supposed to be a new bridge connecting United Boulevard with Brunette at some point. Not sure what will happen on Front Street in New Westminster. The new Patullo Bridge may also factor into it as well.

[Mininari]

Originally Posted by CrazyCommute

First time poster and I gotta say I love this site and this forum in particular. As my name says, I have a crazy commute -- Tsawwassen to Port Coquitlam every day -- so I am very much looking forward to the insanely overdue improvements Gateway will bring.

In that vein and also in line with some recent posts, I am particularly interested in the NFPR, as I have the misfortune of having to drive through the —-backwards city of New Westminster everyday, a community that obviously despises commuter traffic and does everything it can to frustrate drivers in general.

I've been wondering what the status of the project is, and especially what the plan is to increase flow/capacity through the archaic Columbia/Brunette corridor. When you factor in the huge volume of truck traffic, that area has to be one of the biggest bottlenecks in the metro area.

Sounds like you may benefit more from the South Fraser Perimeter road.
1) Avoid most of NW by take the new SFPR to the Patullo, then cross and you can get onto Brunette from there, and then to highway 1, mary hill to Poco.

2) Or, use the new SPFR all the way to the Port Mann, except you'll have to pay a toll to cross there.

Either option would eliminate a plethora of traffic lights from your commute.

[CrazyCommute]

Originally Posted by officedweller

Not sure what will happen on Front Street in New Westminster.

That's my main concern. I have read that the New West section of the NFPR project is essentially just improvments to existing roads, and that it will probably involve some widening/rebuilding of Front Street. I've just heard absolutely nothing other than that bare-bones information.

You're right, that section of the project will probably depend greatly on the new Patullo design.

On a side note, it's amazing how slowly things happen around here. In the mid-90s, I was a reporter for a community newspaper that covered Burnaby/New West, and I wrote a story on plans to rebuild Front Street in 1994.

[CrazyCommute]

Originally Posted by Mininari

Sounds like you may benefit more from the South Fraser Perimeter road.
1) Avoid most of NW by take the new SFPR to the Patullo, then cross and you can get onto Brunette from there, and then to highway 1, mary hill to Poco.

2) Or, use the new SPFR all the way to the Port Mann, except you'll have to pay a toll to cross there.

Either option would eliminate a plethora of traffic lights from your commute.

Yes, I definitely agree. I will be using the SFPR once it's built, and probably using the second option (right to Port Mann). I'll gladly pay a toll to shave 20 minutes (or however long) off the drive.

[Stingray2004]

Originally Posted by CrazyCommute

I've been wondering what the status of the project is, and especially what the plan is to increase flow/capacity through the archaic Columbia/Brunette corridor. When you factor in the huge volume of truck traffic, that area has to be one of the biggest bottlenecks in the metro area.

The NFPR is broken up into two segments:

1. BC MoT's segment, the Mary Hill Bypass/PRB/Hwy 7 to the Golden Ears Bridge Connector, which will eventually see additional interchanges and other related highway improvements;

2. Translink's segment, from the north bridgehead of the Queensborough Bridge through Stewardson Way/Front St./Columbia/Brunette/United Boulevard;

But Translink's segment only has that route designated as part of Translink's major road network and it's a piecemeal road network.

The only upgrades envisaged along Translink's portion is an underpass at Front St.'s east end, a second lane eastbound adjacent to the old brewery site, and the United Blvd. improvements.

Yeah, it still will be a bit of a mess.

From Tsawwassen to Port Coquitlam, a faster option in the future would be utilizing the new SFPR expressway (Hwy 17) directly to Hwy 1 at its end junction with Hwy 15... then take the newly upgraded Hwy 1 and cross the new PMB directly into Port Coquitlam.

Of course, that's still ~5 years away and has the extra cost of the PMB toll added on.

[David]

I really dont think that New Westminster is "— backward" for not destroying its downtown to pander to people who choose to drive from Tsawwassen to Port Coquitlam every day.
Just my 2 cents..

[Metro-One]

To be honest, i too do not want to see New Westminster destroyed, but i do wish we were able to build such infrastructure as a tunnel under New West that would connect from the Queensborough Bridge to just past the old mental health facility. This tunnel would need no interchanges and could be a complete bypass of new West for through travelers.

As for the section of the NFPR from the #1 to the Golden Ears Bridge, the eventual plan for that route (Mary Hill Bypass, PRB, Lougheed) is for it to become full free flow (all the traffic signals are to be replaced with interchanges). I have no idea on the governments time frame on this. Although i have long awaited the day when the Mary Hill becomes free flow.

[twoNeurons]

To me, a more logical approach would be to widen Royal Ave on the East side and reroute traffic up McBride.

A more expensive and more flowing solution would be a tunnel connecting with the east end of Royal under Victoria Hill/Old Mental Facility.

There's lots of waterfront in Downtown New Westminster, that, despite having a train track on it, would be nice property to develop in the future.

Anyone know who owns the land south of the track downtown (East of New West Quay)

[DKaz]

I think the best thing New Westminster can do is to widen Front St. to 4 lanes @ 60km/h. When they eventually have to replace the aging parkade, they can cover up Front St. and build a park like plaza on top of it, assuming they're not replacing it with another parkade (at least not something as big). Stewardson Way and E. Columbia will naturally divert into Front St. clearing Columbia of thru traffic which will T into E. Columbia and Stewardson providing business access but making it unappealing as a thru route.

The only thing is that the Front St. Frontage Road businesses would be staring at the concrete wall of the Front. St. tunnel but they could push it out a bit to create more businesses but they could realign Front St. towards the water and create additional shops and open stairs/wheelchair ramps up to the open plaza.

This wouldn't be a tunnel but it would be a lot cheaper and would actually improve New West' waterfront once they get rid of the biggest waste of waterfront land, that parkade.

In regards to the Cape Horn clearing, I wonder if they're going to phase construction and start building a few ramps now.

[CrazyCommute]

Originally Posted by David

I really dont think that New Westminster is "— backward" for not destroying its downtown to pander to people who choose to drive from Tsawwassen to Port Coquitlam every day.
Just my 2 cents..

"Choose to drive..." LOL. The reality is, I've lived in South Delta for 11 years and three years ago my company moved from Richmond to Port Coquitlam. The reality is, some people have long drives to get to work. It is not a choice, but a necessity.

And since when is providing an adequate, efficient transportation system -- one that includes roads that grow with the population -- pandering?

I really think that New Westminster's long-standing attitude toward commuters is just part of the larger problem of NIMBYism that afflicts this entire region. It's certainly not the only community that has that problem, either. I experience it all the time in Tsawwassen, with the Port, overhead transmission lines, and -- of course -- the SFPR.

[SpongeG]

the old mayor in new westminster didn't want "her" city to become a through route so she went out of her way to make traffic slow or by pass the city completely

she at one point even locked that little one lane bridge between new west and coquitlam and refused to do her part in the road project - the bridge was suppossed to be replaced etc

anyway if i go through new west i usually go via 6th or 8th - front street and columbia are a waste of time and a pain

[Metro-One]

New West is so funny, how long can they deny the fact that they are located directly in the middle of the Greater Vancouver area? I really hope they do not screw up the new Patullo Bridge.

[punkster1982]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

:

As for the section of the NFPR from the #1 to the Golden Ears Bridge, the eventual plan for that route (Mary Hill Bypass, PRB, Lougheed) is for it to become full free flow (all the traffic signals are to be replaced with interchanges). I have no idea on the governments time frame on this. Although i have long awaited the day when the Mary Hill becomes free flow.

I remember reading a report somewhere saying that, in their opinion, the MaryHill Bypass wouldn't reach capacity for a long time so there is no need to build full interchanges in the next 25 years at least.


Also, in regards to New West, why should they use their tax money to support the commuting habits of other municipalities? This is definitely why Translink and the Province need to step up with a plan. I think a lot of it will be resolved when New West decides what they want to do with the waterfront. I think they are intending to tear down the parkade permanently, as it requires expensive upgrades due to its age currently, although they haven't made a final decision. Plus they just bought all that land back along the river. Maybe once the economy recovers a bit, they can finalize plans.

Either way, though, I think they figure Front Street will basically be only for trucks and commercial traffic, and commuters will be rerouted around the city centre some other way.

[Stingray2004]

Originally Posted by punkster1982

I remember reading a report somewhere saying that, in their opinion, the MaryHill Bypass wouldn't reach capacity for a long time so there is no need to build full interchanges in the next 25 years at least.

From my knowledge and understanding, the Mary Hill Bypass continues to remain a continuous choke point esp. during the longer rush hours and even during the day.

Even with the new PRB, the traffic light on its east side (Kennedy and Old Dewdney Truck Rd.) will continue to cause many of those back-ups until further system-wide improvements are made.

BC MoT has designated Shaughnessy, Pitt River Rd, Broadway, and Kingsway as locations for new interchanges along the MHB and when the new Coast Meridian Overpass is completed that will result in further pressure on both Kingsway and Broadway.

But you are right in one respect. So far, BC MoT has not given a time-line for these NFPR upgrades and I haven't seen the traffic modeling studies.

Perhaps the GEB will provide a relief valve for the MHB during the interim.

[Metro-One]

I remember reading a report somewhere saying that, in their opinion, the MaryHill Bypass wouldn't reach capacity for a long time so there is no need to build full interchanges in the next 25 years at least.

Are you serious? Anyone who has ever driven the mary Hill during rush hour knows how bad of a bottle neck every traffic light becomes. In the morning west bound traffic can easily be backed up far past the pedestrian overpass and in the evening east bound traffic is often backed up to Pitt River road. By no means does the Mary Hill need to be widened but being the major connector it is it should definetly have its traffic signals replaced with interchanges.

[twoNeurons]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

New West is so funny, how long can they deny the fact that they are located directly in the middle of the Greater Vancouver area? I really hope they do not screw up the new Patullo Bridge.

Probably using the same rationale that Downtown Vancouver used in the 70s when it was the economic centre of the GVRD and smack dab in the middle of the North Shore, Burnaby and Richmond and then didn't go ahead with the Downtown Freeway, resulting in the Cambie Freeway not being implemented and some viaducts that weren't fully utilized.

There's no reason that New West has to pander to other municipalities who are just passing through by opening up their downtown.

New West Downtown has a lot of potential and has excellent transit connections. There's no reason cars can't go up McBride and down 6th. Trucks can use Front Street.

Turning the main drag into a by-pass would be like building a viaduct down Robson Street.

[Metro-One]

Well that is why i believe it should be an express tunnel that runs under the city. As i said having a freeway go through the city center would be terrible, but that does not mean other solutions can not be created. And as far as the new Patullo goes, I really do hope they don't ruin that project, as far as i am concerned the Patullo Bridge better have an interchange at its North End. There is no need for New West to have created the number of traffic jams that it has. Such as why on its most eastern edge have they left the United Boulevard to end in a one lane wooden bridge? Not to mention how narrow Columbia St. That road is a disaster. Also i find it funny how one of the regions largest hospitals is surrounded by tiny narrow poorly designed streets that are always cogged with traffic. I feel you are kind of missing the point. We are not saying to level a freeway right through the city center, we are simply saying that New West does need to start playing ball with the rest of the region. Why should everyone else bend over backwards for it? Nothing can change the fact that they are just west of the largest freeway in the region (#1), they have the Patullo Bridge (a major cross river artery), they have the Queensburough Bridge (another major cross river artery and the official start/end of highway 91, linking it to the 99 and the 91A) and that they are smack in the middle of numerous industrial areas. Much of the traffic in New West is industrial commercial traffic. The fact is New West lies directly in between the regions two major road networks, something has to give.

[Mininari]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

Are you serious? Anyone who has ever driven the mary Hill during rush hour knows how bad of a bottle neck every traffic light becomes. In the morning west bound traffic can easily be backed up far past the pedestrian overpass and in the evening east bound traffic is often backed up to Pitt River road. By no means does the Mary Hill need to be widened but being the major connector it is it should definetly have its traffic signals replaced with interchanges.

Agreed.

I used to work on Kebet way, and used the MHB to reverse-commute to the Burquitlam area (until I moved to Port Moody). The eastbound afternoon traffic was very commonly a 2 - 3 traffic signal affair at many of those intersections. The gateway upgrades and the CM-overpass are probably going to put more pressure on them... especially at Shaughnessy St.

But, with ~$4.0B going into the SFPR and PMBH1 projects, I guess they have to draw the line somewhere. Thats what an infrastructure deficit will do to you

[DKaz]

A bored tunnel under New West would be 4km long. Seeing how Seattle's bored bi-level Alaska Way tunnel is going to be 1.6 miles long and cost $4.24 billion dollars USD, so it should cost us about, $8 billion dollars?

I say we just upgrade the entire length from Stewardson Way to Brunette via a new 4 lane Front St., design the entire length at 60km/h, and remove any unnecessary intersections.

[Stingray2004]

Seattle's situation is a bit more complex, is along the waterfront, etc.

Perhaps another cost comparison would be the 3 km tunnel option for Hwy 1 in the Kicking Horse Canyon. Cost estimates for twin, 2-lane tunnels come in at around $200 million+/km.

If this was Europe, the Queensborough Bridge would be twinned and at the north bridgehead the 4-lanes of tunnel would commence therefrom right underneath the old penetentiary site and come out past the old brewery site.

All through traffic and truck traffic would be taken off New West's municipal street system and trams would be rolling along Columbia St., etc.

But this is BC, not Europe.