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  #2261  
Old Posted Mar 23, 2009, 4:57 PM
cybele cybele is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Fiorenza View Post
As long as government is involved in economic decisions there will be politics, favors and subsidies.
Unlike private enterprise.
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  #2262  
Old Posted Mar 23, 2009, 5:51 PM
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Fiorenza Fiorenza is offline
 
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Yes, but as long as the government isn't creating public and private monopolies at least you have the option to participate or not.
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  #2263  
Old Posted Mar 23, 2009, 6:25 PM
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RobMidtowner RobMidtowner is offline
 
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^Kind've like you have the option to use a HOT lane or not. I think you have an overly cynical view of all this Fiorenza.

The "that road has already been paid for so I shouldn't have to pay anything else" sense of entitlement attitude is why GDOT is in a funding crisis to begin with.
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  #2264  
Old Posted Mar 23, 2009, 6:31 PM
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Fiorenza Fiorenza is offline
 
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You have the option to pay to use a HOT lane you've already paid for, or be stuck in traffic. Not much of an option.
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  #2265  
Old Posted Mar 23, 2009, 6:42 PM
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RobMidtowner RobMidtowner is offline
 
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Well until transportation funding is spread equitably around the state (and by equitably, I mean money actually going where it comes from rather than equal amounts going everywhere regardless), this is about the best you can expect. If you don't want to pay extra then don't use it. The whole world doesn't revolve around you Fiorenza, we all sit in traffic sometimes and it —!
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  #2266  
Old Posted Mar 23, 2009, 6:59 PM
cybele cybele is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Fiorenza View Post
... at least you have the option to participate or not.
I don't recall George Bush and Hank Paulsen giving me the opportunity to opt out of their corporate welfare program. Which was of course provoked by the greed, crookedness, influence peddling and utter ineptness of the private sector.

Obama's not doing much better either. At least we're beginning to get some vague idea where these hundreds of billions of dollars have been going, but it's mostly just additional "compensation" to foreign banks and Wall Street fat cats. That doesn't exactly shore up one's faith in the supposed virtues of private enterprise.
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  #2267  
Old Posted Mar 23, 2009, 7:16 PM
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Fiorenza Fiorenza is offline
 
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Both of you guys, I agree with you.

The politicians are in an incestuous relationship with special interests.
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  #2268  
Old Posted Mar 24, 2009, 2:16 AM
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dante2308 dante2308 is offline
 
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Originally Posted by cybele View Post
I don't recall George Bush and Hank Paulsen giving me the opportunity to opt out of their corporate welfare program. Which was of course provoked by the greed, crookedness, influence peddling and utter ineptness of the private sector.

Obama's not doing much better either. At least we're beginning to get some vague idea where these hundreds of billions of dollars have been going, but it's mostly just additional "compensation" to foreign banks and Wall Street fat cats. That doesn't exactly shore up one's faith in the supposed virtues of private enterprise.
It is important to clearly separate the actions of the Bush administration with the actions of the Obama administration once the economic plan was finalized at the beginning of this month.

The no-strings bailout was a the original proposal that came in September out of the Bush administration. The congress allocated the money with clear guidelines and assumed that Hank would follow them. He quickly abandoned the guidelines and went back to the original plan to offer no-string bailouts to any who asked.

The first 350 billion dollar TARP was based entirely on the concept of "bailouts." The second half is being used in several new ways that are actually too complicated to explain here, but to summarize:

75 billion to work with homeowners and stem foreclosures
100 billion to support the TALF
50 billion to support the TA private-public partnership
45 billion in bailouts to companies failing after their first bailout

The last basically acts as invest protection because we will no get any of that first money back if all those companies fail anyway.

To further assist the economic recovery, the Fed has proposed buying US debt which forces interests rates down so low that assets can move into different markets that work grow investments rather than locking away capital.

The next step is changing the uptick rule and reforming mark-to-market which should come next week followed by broader regulatory and systematic reform.

Of course this is on top of the 288 billion in tax cuts, $111 billion in infrastructure improvements, and 59 billion in health care streamlining investments that already went through.

The above programs are not "mostly" going to compensation even in the original Bush bailouts.

Jim Cramer had a great piece on why the markets went up 7% today. He suggested that it wasn't because one of the administration's plans was so great, it was because the markets were getting a sense of cohesiveness finally. He said that there were so many plans that today didn't need to be the silver bullet anymore and the administration has been calming fears of anti-capitalism by acting in such a pro-markets manner. More than any rhetoric from either side, people can clearly see a line to profits across the board and so the market rallied for two weeks and counting.

Incidentally, the views of the economy have improved along with Obama's ratings recently.

Quote:
Economic Optimism Reaches 20-Month High

Last edited by dante2308; Mar 24, 2009 at 2:28 AM.
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  #2269  
Old Posted Mar 24, 2009, 4:02 AM
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Fiorenza Fiorenza is offline
 
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Obama's going to have to answer for the unemployment and inflation. What the market does as a result of being temporarily artificially juiced is irrelevant. If the economy goes in the crapper, so does Obama.
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  #2270  
Old Posted Mar 24, 2009, 4:29 AM
cybele cybele is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Fiorenza View Post
If the economy goes in the crapper, so does Obama.
The economy was already in the crapper before Obama got elected.
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  #2271  
Old Posted Mar 24, 2009, 5:01 AM
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Fiorenza Fiorenza is offline
 
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True, but Obama's job is to pull it out. I don't think he will do so, but to be honest it's not all his fault. However, he'll be held responsible.
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  #2272  
Old Posted Mar 24, 2009, 5:03 AM
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Fiorenza Fiorenza is offline
 
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Due to demographic trends the country is becoming third world - no matter who is president.
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  #2273  
Old Posted Mar 24, 2009, 11:46 AM
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dante2308 dante2308 is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fiorenza View Post
Obama's going to have to answer for the unemployment and inflation. What the market does as a result of being temporarily artificially juiced is irrelevant. If the economy goes in the crapper, so does Obama.
Its not quite artificial... it is a concerted action to restart capital markets which is clearly succeeding. The value of bank stocks is directly responsible for and tied to their ability to raise capital. On top of this, they are starting to record some tepid profits which means that lending will begin to unfreeze finally.

All this solvency will clearly lead back to an economic recovery considering the source. On top of that, Obama is obviously interested in starting brand new industries which is something that is predecessor didn't find useful or necessary for some reason.

So you think that the recession is permanent? I'm not sure how that makes sense coming from someone who hails from the financial world. Well I guess we need absolute bears like you to stay out of the market. Things will never get as bad as the Reagan era again.
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  #2274  
Old Posted Mar 24, 2009, 11:50 AM
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On demographics.. it seems that poor financial firm management, excessive moral decay, greed, and poor oversight coupled with Republican rule began the death spiral. Apparently Republicans and the people who buy them out are the demographic we should consider getting rid of. How is it that you have helped the economy recover Fiorenza? Didn't you ship all your jobs overseas in a concerted act of disdain for the country and the people in it? No, people like that are clearly ruining this fine country and standing in the way of prosperity.

Last edited by dante2308; Mar 24, 2009 at 12:01 PM.
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  #2275  
Old Posted Mar 24, 2009, 12:10 PM
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dante2308 dante2308 is offline
 
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One last thing, about a month or so ago, people were blaming Obama for the stock market drop. I have another theory. It was Republicans fatalistic approach to politics that did it. Of course people are going to sell stocks if they think the anti-christ/muslim/terrorist-lover/commie/socialist/america-hater was going to turn the world to ash by breathing fire and eating and taxing unborn babies.

Curious, can Republicans win a single vote by being sober, calm, and rational? Isn't it a little short-sighted to base your party's prospects on something that will never come to pass?
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  #2276  
Old Posted Mar 24, 2009, 2:23 PM
smArTaLlone smArTaLlone is offline
 
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Do we have to turn every thread into a political debate on Obama?!?!?!?
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  #2277  
Old Posted Mar 24, 2009, 2:54 PM
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dante2308 dante2308 is offline
 
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Originally Posted by smArTaLlone View Post
Do we have to turn every thread into a political debate on Obama?!?!?!?
Well, apparently the national political debate is ongoing and deeply affects all of our daily lives like never before. It would be nice if we could funnel it again into a political thread.

Maybe I'll try, but then again, maybe I wont care.
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  #2278  
Old Posted Mar 25, 2009, 12:34 AM
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citywalker citywalker is offline
 
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Hmm Fiorenza maybe if you think this country is headed to the crapper you should consider relocating elsewhere just like the democrats of Georgia should.....just a thought...
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  #2279  
Old Posted Mar 25, 2009, 3:06 AM
cybele cybele is offline
 
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Why leave Georgia? The Republicans own this state, as well as the rest of the South. It's the Democrats who need to leave if they don't like it.
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  #2280  
Old Posted Mar 25, 2009, 3:14 AM
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Fiorenza Fiorenza is offline
 
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I'm fine in the US for the present unless the personal safety aspect gets too dicey, then we'll move back to Prague - which is my wife's native city and where my children were born. People have been emigrating and immigrating for a long time...it's always an option.

Last edited by Fiorenza; Mar 25, 2009 at 3:27 AM.
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