ATLANTA | Development Thread V

[gttx]

Originally Posted by ls1z28chris

Like state funding and control of MARTA? That would be nice. Maybe then their "law enforcement officers" would actually follow the law, they would clean their transit stations at least once every quarter century or so, and we would see some sort of expansion of service rather than the agency going broke and trying to shut down their lines.

You really should give MARTA more of a chance. It is one of the most heavily-used transit systems in the country, averaging over 508,000 weekday trips. That puts it behind only LA, San Francisco, Washington DC, Chicago, Boston, New York, and Philadelphia (not in order), but ahead of comparable cities like Seattle, Portland, Denver, Minneapolis, Phoenix, and Miami. Charlotte has barely 1/5 of the total ridership on its transit system.

I moved out of Atlanta in August, but when I come back (about once a month) I have to use MARTA out of necessity, since I don't have a car to drive. I never once used the bus system while living there, but it is actually pretty good. And you can transfer to get anywhere you want, making a trip to and from anywhere MARTA serves only $1.75. Pretty nice. I have never had a problem with a train, bus, or station being dirty, apart from the occasional homeless person.

It is interesting how you seem to blame the agency itself for going broke. Its problems are a direct result of a nearly-impossible financial structure. All of its funding comes from a 1% sales tax (I believe) imposed only in Fulton and Dekalb Counties. Yet it serves a much larger area. It can't expand because no other counties will vote to allow new rail lines, nor do I ever see them voting to tax themselves to share the financial burden of the system. Essentially, its hands are tied. And the longer the state continues to ignore MARTA (and the city as a whole, really), the more we will see potential service cuts or fare increases, which don't help anything (see the MTA's problems in New York for a great example, even though they do receive substantial state funding).

I think the best solution will end up being regional in scope. GRTA was established for that explicit purpose. Unfortunately, they have spent more time trying to strong arm MARTA and take ridership shares than seeking some sort of integration and equitable sharing of responsibility.

[cybele]

Originally Posted by gttx

I think that connectivity between the cities might also become very important in the future. One of the reasons the Northeast Corridor has been (historically) so successful is that its major cities are all seamlessly connected. I could go from Washington DC to Philadelphia, New York, or Boston (and a number of cities in between) for relatively cheap, either on Amtrak or any number of bus systems. I realize the growing southern cities are not as large and much farther apart, but it is an idea worth considering moving forward. Simple rail service between Atlanta, Charlotte, Raleigh-Durham, and even cities like Nashville or Memphis would be awesome.

Absolutely. I'm in and out of New Haven quite a bit and love being able to take the train right into the center of town, only a few blocks from my destination. It makes an easy trip out of an annoying drive.

I used to use the DC-Philadelphia connection frequently, too. Excellent, especially since both cities have strong business cores near the train stations and very good links to local service.

[ls1z28chris]

Originally Posted by gttx

You really should give MARTA more of a chance. It is one of the most heavily-used transit systems in the country, averaging over 508,000 weekday trips. That puts it behind only LA, San Francisco, Washington DC, Chicago, Boston, New York, and Philadelphia (not in order), but ahead of comparable cities like Seattle, Portland, Denver, Minneapolis, Phoenix, and Miami. Charlotte has barely 1/5 of the total ridership on its transit system.

I moved out of Atlanta in August, but when I come back (about once a month) I have to use MARTA out of necessity, since I don't have a car to drive. I never once used the bus system while living there, but it is actually pretty good. And you can transfer to get anywhere you want, making a trip to and from anywhere MARTA serves only $1.75. Pretty nice. I have never had a problem with a train, bus, or station being dirty, apart from the occasional homeless person.

It is interesting how you seem to blame the agency itself for going broke. Its problems are a direct result of a nearly-impossible financial structure. All of its funding comes from a 1% sales tax (I believe) imposed only in Fulton and Dekalb Counties. Yet it serves a much larger area. It can't expand because no other counties will vote to allow new rail lines, nor do I ever see them voting to tax themselves to share the financial burden of the system. Essentially, its hands are tied. And the longer the state continues to ignore MARTA (and the city as a whole, really), the more we will see potential service cuts or fare increases, which don't help anything (see the MTA's problems in New York for a great example, even though they do receive substantial state funding).

I think the best solution will end up being regional in scope. GRTA was established for that explicit purpose. Unfortunately, they have spent more time trying to strong arm MARTA and take ridership shares than seeking some sort of integration and equitable sharing of responsibility.

A lot of poor people depend on MARTA, but I do not think that that metric alone qualifies it as a success. I would like to see it become a transit system that services the whole metro area, affluent and impoverished alike. I have not been to Chicago since I was 12, and I have never been to New York, but the impression that I get is that everyone in those cities utilize their mass transit systems for their transportation needs. I want to see MARTA accomplish the same objective.

I don't blame the agency alone for their problems, but people tend to ignore MARTA's culpability. While the majority of their funding comes from the 1% sales tax in DeKalb and Fulton, they wouldn't be so dependent on that revenue if they could attract riders from demographics other than black people below the poverty line.

Two huge steps they could take would be: 1) Pressure wash some concrete. It looks like all of their stations have not been cleaned since the system was built in the 1970's. 2) Hire police officers who will enforce the law as opposed to violate it. When something does go down, they call APD to file the report so that it does not impact their crime statistics. They also hassle law abiding citizens and ignore Georgia law.

Even though I break even and incur no financial advantage, and actually loose time by using the system, I ride MARTA every day that I commute from Marietta to Decatur for class. I do it because I want to be a part of the solution rather than a part of the problem, and also because I enjoy a sense of community by being with fellow Atlantans. I love the freedom, the leisure, and the occasional conversation. The problem, though, is that when I encourage friends to ride MARTA to Braves games or Falcons games, they all resist because they know that the stations are dirty and inhabited by the homeless, and because they know that their law enforcement are incompetent. Most suburbanites are turned off from the system when they see the filthy, panhandler infested stations. If MARTA could attract new riders by cleaning their stations and training their officers, I think that a lot of their problems would be solved.

At the same time, I realize that a lot could also be solved if people in Cobb and Gwinett dropped their racism and agreed to the 1% tax to extend transit into their territory... They just need to stop affirming this bigotry by neglecting their infrastructure and by acting in arrogant violation of Georgia and federal law.

[Atlwest281]

I think rail transit and for that matter an expanded and cohesive bus system is inevitable and will happen. This year has seen a lot of movement, probably the most in a very very long time, happening for transit. I think if Marta and what ever commuter options plus belt line local bus systems can be merged into a massive system with unfettered access to even the 5 largest counties(population wise) it will make a huge difference.

In terms of regionally, connecting Atlanta to Charlotte, Nashville, and Raleigh will do wonders for rail travel in the southeast.
I truly was amazed and awe inspired by the relative simplicity that the Copenhagen DK transit system blended into the national danish rail system(DSB). Lines going everywhere, frequency, comfortable, heck even attendants with carts offering drinks and snacks for sale(ancillary income) was fantastic. If we could get a system with 30% of the scope of what Copenhagen and the larger danish national system has for the metro let alone the state and region we would be in very very good shape.

[Atlwest281]

ls1z28chris you are very very correct in your assumption that EVERYONE uses the subways and transit in NYC and Chicago. That is what makes the system pulse with life because all kinds of people from all around the world use it. Totally of topic...you should definitely make a trip to NYC an for that matter Chicago you would have a blast .
Now in terms of the stations there are many in NYC and Chicago which are pretty and clean but there are SEVERAL that the smell of a billion urinations permeate lol its just a part of the beast. The distaste suburbanites have with Marta is exactly what you pegged it at. Though many suggest a name change might be in order to appeal to more people, and in someways they are right, but its so funny how so many people that belittle Marta have NEVER even set foot in a station let alone on a Marta train.

[sevensixtwo]

Originally Posted by delarosa

This is amusing. It and the rest of these responses do a fine job of undermining themselves. For starters, considering that this was the manner in which Atl metro developed unhindered, it stands to reason that it's where most transplants would be moving. Are they looking for lower COL and quality of life? Obviously. Would they exercise other options if available to them? This too is obvious. Perhaps for some a little more research is in order regarding significant economic growth factors in the US since the 1980's and the associated demographics.

The assertion regarding downtown vs. suburbs is a false dilemma and all along fraught with storybook simplification...as if the only choices in Atl were downtown and woodstock, east cobb etc. Most "intown" neighborhoods have been gentrified to the extent that ironically it's more affluent professionals with families that dominate, families with dogs and so on. Atl will likely never be like nyc or chicago, at least not in the remotely proximate future, unless we experience an economic expansion the likes of which was experienced in the 20th century. But to suggest that the alternative is unchecked outward expansion with little regard for cohesion, infrastructure, etc...I'm certainly glad such a perspective will ultimately bear itself out as flawed.

As for the introduction of socialism into the discussion, that's sloppy argumentation and a feeble attempt to discredit. Ironically I'm often reminded of my travels to former eastern bloc countries when traversing our 'burbs. And as for the notion that somehow the 'burbs are analogs to "country"...they're in fact do more to kill the very thing.

Now see how easy it is to become swaddled in dogma? Isn't it cozy in there? Kind of a shame really. IMHO people should be free to make lifestyle choices as long as they also bear the full costs, including externalities and infrastructure expansion. Given it's development history and current landscape, solutions for Atlanta will ultimately lie somewhere in the middle. But unfortunately it'll take longer to get there with such puerility dominating the discourse.

Great post delarosa. You have to see through those false dilemmas. I think there is a wild card in the deck for Atlanta to become a mini-Manhattan. Sure another boom like the 20th century could make it happen. Likewise a sharp economic downturn coupled with inflated oil prices (I certainly know better than to mention Peak Oil Theory on this forum) could make COL a driving factor to leave the suburbs. How many people will want a yard and a commute at $25 gallon when they can have a luxurious condo and a short walk? It seems like the public forgot about the physical resource supply shortage that is the Energy Crisis. The TV only talks about the other multiple conjured crises going on simultaneously. Out of sight, out of mind, right?

[gttx]

Originally Posted by Atlwest281

ls1z28chris you are very very correct in your assumption that EVERYONE uses the subways and transit in NYC and Chicago. That is what makes the system pulse with life because all kinds of people from all around the world use it. Totally of topic...you should definitely make a trip to NYC an for that matter Chicago you would have a blast .
Now in terms of the stations there are many in NYC and Chicago which are pretty and clean but there are SEVERAL that the smell of a billion urinations permeate lol its just a part of the beast. The distaste suburbanites have with Marta is exactly what you pegged it at. Though many suggest a name change might be in order to appeal to more people, and in someways they are right, but its so funny how so many people that belittle Marta have NEVER even set foot in a station let alone on a Marta train.

When you have 10,000,000+ transit trips every day in New York, it is next to impossible to keep the stations clean. A lot of people are surprised, though, to find out just how dirty they are. Most of them have needed new paint jobs for about 25 years.

I think we tend to idealize these systems too often, without remembering just how "really nice" systems actually look or feel. That is not to say they don't exist (Paris and Singapore are great examples of really nice metros), but the examples of New York and Chicago are a bit tired, especially coming from people who have never been there.

[sevensixtwo]

I dont think Muskavon was serious, but I just thought Id comment again. In my professional opinion, as a physicist, no one should be getting their hopes up about hydrogen. The cars could be super efficient but the only reasonable way to power that kind of hydrolysis (making the hydrogen) is an army of nuclear reactors. That was the one thing I liked about McCain. He was skeptical of the prevailing views against nuclear energy. Most people dont realize that the waves of mutant babies expected after Chernobyl and Three Mile Island never came. In fact, new research on the wildlife in and around the Chernobyl site indicates that mid-level doses of nuclear radiation (not electromagnetic radiation) have an anomalously positive impact on animals' immune systems. As orbital entry vehicles become more efficient we are rapidly approaching the day when it will be cost effective to put nuclear waste in space and let it fall into the sun. A space elevator is very possible within 20 years.

How many millions of acres are needed to grow corn for an ethanol nation and is there enough land left for food? Biofuels are just dumb. Thanks Al Gore, way to make food commodity prices spiral out of control last year.

In order to charge 200,000,000 electric car batteries every night the entire electrical infrastructure would need to be upgraded to handle the new load. I wonder how many coal-fired/nuclear plants it would take to power a hydrogen/electric nation. Its more than what is feasible, that much appears clear to me. And what about a blend of the three solutions? How are we going to fund three emergency research initiatives when there is no guarantee the technologies will pan out AND they only constitute a valid solution if they all succeed and have synergy?

The era of driving all over the place affordably is waning. That's not too good for humanity, but the next paradigm should provide some enjoyment to urbanist transit enthusiasts.

[scpatl4now]

I think MARTA really missed a golden opportunity by not servicing Turner Field directly by train. That is where most of the 1st time ridership is going and having to transfer to a bus makes the trip more time consuming and confusing to those who have never taken public transit before.
There needs to be a much bigger push for rail in the metro area...and our elected officials and their "where's mine" mentality in the rural counties does no good. GA is a very backwards state in respect to transit...most of it originating (and sustained to a degree) from racial origins. Oh, and Governor Bubba (what I call him) is clueless...sadly

[Atlwest281]

I think they are somewhat idealized because very seldom do you see a show on tv that shows the grittiness of the system. its usually the idealized urban scene. Cute youngish upper middle class city dweller talking on the cellphone in a fantastic Varvatos suit running off to some important meeting in the FiDi district joined by equally cute or a perfect balance of eclectic people in transit. LOL well more or less.
The stations are usually in the best lighting and colors so when someone who has never been to NYC see it in its true application they are usually surprised. Its sometimes dark, cold, smelly and crowded, but works extremely efficiently, and is venerable, and yes the envy of all the other major cities in the country.

[sevensixtwo]

Originally Posted by gttx

I think that connectivity between the cities might also become very important in the future. One of the reasons the Northeast Corridor has been (historically) so successful is that its major cities are all seamlessly connected. I could go from Washington DC to Philadelphia, New York, or Boston (and a number of cities in between) for relatively cheap, either on Amtrak or any number of bus systems. I realize the growing southern cities are not as large and much farther apart, but it is an idea worth considering moving forward. Simple rail service between Atlanta, Charlotte, Raleigh-Durham, and even cities like Nashville or Memphis would be awesome.

The energy crises must be a wet dream for Amtrak. A new future where jet fuel makes commercial air travel impossibly expensive.

[cybele]

Originally Posted by scpatl4now

I think MARTA really missed a golden opportunity by not servicing Turner Field directly by train.

The city missed a golden opportunity by not putting the stadium closer to a transit station, say, like in the railroad gulch. That might really have energized downtown. I love to see stadiums integrated into a city landscape (a la Yankee Stadium), rather than stuck off to the side somewhere in a sea of parking lots.

[g-man435]

Terminus:






The Atlantic at Atlantic Station:




(right side of picture)

[BlueSangha]

MARTA BLOWS CHUNX!!! I have been riding for 10+ yrs, nothing good to say about it

[Atlwest281]

Beautiful Pictures g-man435!!!!

Well chunks blown or not Marta is the best we have at the moment so the best thing to do is when the regional tax bill or the compromise happens, u can use your vote to push for a more fairly funded regional system so Marta isn't trying to maintain a castle with a fry cook salary and can actually improve and expand. :-)

[cybele]

MARTA is a fantastic system. It would probably cost $30 billion to duplicate it today.

[ClaySkyHigh]

[IMG][/IMG]

[tdawg]

You know, I never had a problem with MARTA's rail system (buses were a different story, but I left in 1999 and things may have improved). True that 10 years in New York has spoiled me (the MTA I think does a remarkable job of keeping nearly 500 subway stations reasonably clean and the new Kawasaki subway cars are fantastic). I was struck by the irony last week of learning that Gwinnett, a county that has fought the encroachment of Atlanta's urban ills, has emerged as the center of the Mexican drug trade's East Coast operations. Gwinnett needs to step up, accept it's fate and embrace MARTA as a reasonable alternative to I-85 and it's choking traffic. It can't live in the bubble it has for so many decadeds, exalting it's growth so tied to the city but ignoring it's central role in the region's success.

[cybele]

As a Fulton County (and MARTA) taxpayer, I am not sure I want Gwinnett County offloading its woes on us. Gwinnett has been offered countless opportunities to participate in MARTA. We even gave Gwinnett a seat on MARTA's board, for reasons that are inexplicable. In return all we've gotten is a poke in the eye with a sharp stick.

And we are now supposed to provide a direct pipeline for Gwinnett crime into our neighborhoods?

[sevensixtwo]

Facetious?