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  #9361  
Old Posted Mar 18, 2009, 8:18 PM
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I think this gathering places can simply be designed into new developments or redeveloped areas. Prior to the Gallivan Center the brown bag lunch concert serious took place on the plaza at the Eagle Gate Tower, right there on the corner of S. Temple and State.

It was moved simply because of the large crowds that had started to enjoy those concerts.

You said, in reference to the Gallivan center that if Main Street comes back it won't seem that out of the way. Gallivan Center, nearly every time I am even near it always tends to have people congregating there. I was downtown on a Sunday afternoon a couple of weekends ago and walked through Gallivan, while not overly crowded there were a dozen or so people there, some skaters, some homeless and some just average people, and this was on a chilly sunday afternoon.

The Salt Palace and Abbravanel Hall plaza's tend to be huge gathering places when conventioneers are in town. It seems to me that only the larger gathering places, like Gallivan will attract residents or business people or visitors from beyond their immediate vicinity.
     
     
  #9362  
Old Posted Mar 18, 2009, 10:20 PM
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Originally Posted by arkhitektor View Post
The largest concentrations of arrests (south of the gateway) are near the homeless shelters.
I was working on a film set near the homeless shelters until about 3:00a. It was funny driving down 500 West because you'd see guys on the side of the road subtly moving their hands away from their side as you drove past them.
     
     
  #9363  
Old Posted Mar 18, 2009, 11:01 PM
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Originally Posted by arkhitektor View Post
The largest concentrations of arrests (south of the gateway) are near the homeless shelters.
Yeah... sooner or later they're gonna have to move those.. I wish they'd just do it now. Somewhere on the other side of the tracks, maybe, or just much further south. It doesn't really matter where you put them, the crime will move with them, at least it wouldn't be by the gateway (though so far I've only seen good etiquette, I've never seen a homeless person inside the Gateway).
     
     
  #9364  
Old Posted Mar 19, 2009, 1:19 AM
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Lets move the homeless to downtown Sandy.
     
     
  #9365  
Old Posted Mar 19, 2009, 1:57 AM
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Originally Posted by John Martin View Post
Yeah... sooner or later they're gonna have to move those.. I wish they'd just do it now. Somewhere on the other side of the tracks, maybe, or just much further south. It doesn't really matter where you put them, the crime will move with them, at least it wouldn't be by the gateway (though so far I've only seen good etiquette, I've never seen a homeless person inside the Gateway).
I don't think moving the homeless shelters is a realistic---or particularly ethical---option.

First, what neighborhood is going to welcome them, with the reputation they have? Second, it would be pretty impossible for The Road Home and the other missions to find suitable properties anywhere else in the valley. They can't be in some suburb somewhere--- they need great access to transit; the population they serve is primarily located downtown (and not because that's where the shelters are), as are many of their partner government agencies and NGOs; and the amount of space they need will be far too expensive anywhere else in the downtown area.

And while it's true there are many drug arrests in the vicinity, I don't really think it's because of the shelters. The drug dealers and buyers I see--and even interact with--every day are not homeless. They come to the area because of its reputation, shelters or not. I don't know if originally the shelters created that reputation, or where it came from, but the current Road Home and other shelters have strict screenings and rules, and they're very good about removing and reporting drug users. The VAST majority of their clients are mentally ill, as are the majority of the homeless you see in the area, and are not part of the drug problem.

More important to me, the shelters were in the neighborhood long before Gateway, etc. No one should expect them to move just because the neighborhood is evolving. I've had personal interest in a property in the area (along 200 South btw 500 and 600 West) since the 1990s, I'm there every day (and many nights), and I don't mind the shelters at all. I knew they were there when I got involved, and never expected them to leave. Frankly, I'm a lot more worried about additional "plastic" Gateway ugliness destroying the character and urban appeal of a neighborhood I love.
     
     
  #9366  
Old Posted Mar 19, 2009, 2:56 AM
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I don't think anyone has the idea that a suburb is a good place to put a homeless shelter... but there are undoubtedly better locations for a homeless shelter than across the street from a shopping mall, business district, and various apartment complexes. There's a direct link between drug trafficking and homeless, much of the drugs are sold to homeless and many drug addicts end up homeless. You can't find a single open 10'x10' area in Pioneer park because there are homeless people sleeping on the grass 24/7. You're right that neighborhoods do evolve.. in this case you can try and mix the legitimate projects like condos, businesses, shops, parks, etc. with the crime infested armpit areas, or you can just move the bad spots somewhere more appropriate for everyone. You really can't mix the two without problems. I don't see why a city should have to settle and shape its entire economy and infrastructure around a single sour spot.
     
     
  #9367  
Old Posted Mar 19, 2009, 3:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Future Mayor View Post
I think this gathering places can simply be designed into new developments or redeveloped areas. Prior to the Gallivan Center the brown bag lunch concert serious took place on the plaza at the Eagle Gate Tower, right there on the corner of S. Temple and State.

It was moved simply because of the large crowds that had started to enjoy those concerts.

You said, in reference to the Gallivan center that if Main Street comes back it won't seem that out of the way. Gallivan Center, nearly every time I am even near it always tends to have people congregating there. I was downtown on a Sunday afternoon a couple of weekends ago and walked through Gallivan, while not overly crowded there were a dozen or so people there, some skaters, some homeless and some just average people, and this was on a chilly sunday afternoon.

The Salt Palace and Abbravanel Hall plaza's tend to be huge gathering places when conventioneers are in town. It seems to me that only the larger gathering places, like Gallivan will attract residents or business people or visitors from beyond their immediate vicinity.
I have noticed that Gallivan picks up during certain parts of the day, but it could have more. I have also noticed that Main St and 2nd South have significant foot-traffic during the day - which intersect near Gallivan. I am really liking 2nd South. I think it's a nice East-West urban corridor from about 4th East to the Hub (6th West) - that's a mile and a half of urbanity! (if that's not a word, it is now ) If you get a chance, I would highly recomend driving, biking, or walking 2nd South starting just north of the library and going all the way past Gateway to 6th West. I see some major progress in the development of this corridor and see some more great potential in the future. I think it's doing alright on the street-front, however, I think it has some good skyline potential. I love the idea Cololi and Urbanboy are floating around of building some skyscrapers within the blocks. 2nd South already has some good mid-rises lining most of this corridor (4th East to 6th West) with a couple high-rises where it bisects Main St, but I can see some more high-rises going up between West Temple and 6th West. I think 2nd South could viably become a sort of sub-Main St - it bisects Main St at a pretty central location and has some good street life to it (plenty of bus routes travel this corridor, the street has 4-lanes of auto traffic, there is plenty of pedestrian traffic). Gallivan can deffinately become a central square being at the crossroads of these two streets.
     
     
  #9368  
Old Posted Mar 19, 2009, 3:10 AM
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Learning from the Swiss



Zionide: Perfect. Not only is moving the homeless shelters unreasonable and unethical, it's nonsensical. It would be a classic case of sweeping the real problem under the rug...or at least to another rug that is not quite as visible.

No one wants to own the homeless problem.

No one wants to tackle addiction, which is at least responsible for 70 to 80% of the homeless. Worse, addiction is directly responsible for far more than 50% of people locked up. For some reason, we prefer to spend $100M's each year on jails and far more on related healthcare and not deal with the real problems, booze and dope.

When I lived in Switzerland in the mid-90's, I was stunned by the lack of jails and prisons, almost none in a country of 9M. How could this be? Are the Swiss the most reputable people in the world? Nope. They just have a very practical solution to a very large problem.

People used to congregate in a park not far my house in Switzerland. The locals called it needle park. At the first of each month, there wouldn't be very many. Then the number would grow daily until the end of the month, then they would all suddenly disappear. I asked one day what happened. A local told me the police round them up, take them to rehab, and keep taking them to rehab until they get it.

Switzerland still has one of the highest standards of living in the world and one of the lowest crime rates, with almost NO violent crime. Instead of packing people off to prisons, the Swiss deal with addiction head-on--they treat it like any other disease. The system is not full proof. People still die of alcohol and drug-related causes, but the incidences are almost non-existent by our standards. The incidences of related diseases, like Type II diabetes and heart disease, are far lower, and this in a society that smokes almost universally and eats a high-fat diet.

If we really want to deal with the homeless, we need to get them sober first, then give them skills. This is a far cheaper scheme than building more homeless shelters (regardless of where they are), more prisons, more hospitals, and more cemeteries. Why the the greatest country in the world (ours) cannot figure this out is beyond me. Oh, there is one additional benefit...we would stop funding all the narco-terrorists that are now perched on our border in Mexico.
     
     
  #9369  
Old Posted Mar 19, 2009, 3:44 AM
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What do you guys think of all the homeless people at the downtown main library? I was without internet for much of last month and so I was at the library daily to check my email and litter this site with unnecessary comments. I couldn't find a place to sit down and read cuz all the chairs were occupied by snoozing rugged fellas and the rest of the floor space was occupied with their accompanying backpacks. The whole place smelled of unwashed human, and a guy was coughing so much next to me I think I contracted TB. Its such a beautiful building, but it doesn't really feel like a library as much as it does a refugee camp.

I'm not saying its good or bad, just stating the situation. Thoughts?
     
     
  #9370  
Old Posted Mar 19, 2009, 4:30 AM
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Refugee Camp

Wasden: As if I needed more ammunition for my primary rant...Your comment about the most interesting building constructed in SLC for a very long time becoming a refugee camp for the homeless gave me a whole new arsenal. Where do the homeless go when it is either too cold or hot outside or the cops are busting everyone in sight? The occupation of the library is another symptom.

As much as I hate to admit it, public monies now being invested in infra-structure projects, like the N. Temple viaduct, would have much more positive impacts, especially long term, if those monies were put into social services. Time to invest in our most important resource--people.

Although you joked about it, TB is a serious concern in this population, treatable, but very serious. If you plan on spending much more time in the library, get tested.
     
     
  #9371  
Old Posted Mar 19, 2009, 4:33 AM
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I don't know what the solution to the homeless problem is, but it is a problem, and in the long run, economic development on the west side of downtown and homeless shelters don't realistically go together.

As for the library, you can't blame people for trying to stay warm when its cold out, but this past winter the propblem seems to be a lot worse. I've noticed since the TRAX extension opened last year, there are a lot more homeless on the trains as well. Most mornings when I get into SLC on FrontRunner and transfer to TRAX, there are 10-20 sleeping homeless men on the TRAX train. Since its part of the free fare zone, the transit police can't really do anything unless they stay on the train past Gallivan Plaza.
     
     
  #9372  
Old Posted Mar 19, 2009, 5:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Martin View Post
there are undoubtedly better locations for a homeless shelter than across the street from a shopping mall, business district, and various apartment complexes.
Name one in the downtown area.

The only reason the shelters are where they are is because the mall, the apartments, and to some extent the business district came into the shelter's neighborhood. It's like yuppies who move to the "country," next door to a 50-year-old pig farm, then complain because they find the smell unpleasant. 🞵🞵🞵 did they expect??

I don't believe there is a single other place in town where there isn't some retail area, business district, or a few residences that would be threatened by the move. You think there's pressure to move an established shelter from a suddenly desirable area? Try opening a brand new shelter in somebody else's backyard.

I don't think this forum is the appropriate place for debating the merits of social services spending, but moving the shelter is NOT the answer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhitektor View Post
I don't know what the solution to the homeless problem is, but it is a problem, and in the long run, economic development on the west side of downtown and homeless shelters don't realistically go together.
Then why does development in the area seem on par with the rest of the city, regardless of the shelter? I don't have numbers to compare, but from my perspective as a regular inhabitant, the thriving Gateway retail and waiting-list-only apartments indicate the economic development is fine. The only problem area is office vacancy on 200 South (560 West, 561 West), which is about more than the shelter as both buildings were full last year. And the Orbit Cafe's demise came from TRAX construction, not the homeless. In that particular case, the "progress" is what hurt the business.
     
     
  #9373  
Old Posted Mar 19, 2009, 6:02 AM
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I bet if they do move the homeless shelter, it will be to a Rose Park/Glendale location, because that's where everybody sends their unwanted 🞵🞵🞵🞵.
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  #9374  
Old Posted Mar 19, 2009, 6:06 AM
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I work in EMS in SLC and deal with the homeless on a daily basis. Most of the time we come in contact with a homeless person is because a bystander found him or her passed out and they can't get him to wake up. These people are almost always intoxicted beyond being able to stand or walk on their own. Often times, I come across homeless people who I have dealt with on several occaisons and have gotten to know on a first name basis. These are our "frequent fliers".

It is evident the large portion of the homeless we respond to are severe alcoholics who either don't care to get help for themselves or don't know how to. I'd also say that many people who are homeless, like to be homeless. Because they don't have to get a job, they can get free food and shelter. They drink all day and spend the rest of the time sleeping it off somewhere. If they are drunk and the shelter won't let them in because of it, they camp outside until someone driving by feels bad for him but instead of going and asking him if he is okay, the passer-by calls 911 to have us come check on the guy. Unfortunately for him, the way it usually goes is this person gets arrested by police for being intoxicated in public. Then they repeat the process over and over.

There are a lot of people out there who really do have it rough from time to time and need assistance from the shelters and programs to give them temporary shelter and assistance until they can get themselves back on the right track to taking care of themselves again. Unfortunately, the homeless people who choose to live off the system and let tax payers pay for their lives outweigh the people who really need help. So we need to find a way to get these abusers of the system to want to get back on their feet and live a productive life again.


As far as the location of the shelter, It is unfortunate the shelter and the areas the homeless congregate are in areas the city is re-developing and wants to expand. I think this turns off prospective developers and may lead to people not wanting to be in those areas being bothered by pan-handlers.

Moving the shelter would certainly be good for development, but the homeless problem will still remain, just in another neighborhood. Unless we can educate people as to what the real problem is. And that is convincing those abusers of the system they need to turn their lives around and stop burdening the taxpayers to pay for their lifestyle.

We also need to get other cities like Provo to STOP giving their homeless people bus passes to come up to Salt Lake City to be homeless here instead. This should be illegal. Provo should have their own programs for their homeless. Why should SLC taxpayers and all the Police, Fire, EMS, and hospitals up here have to foot the bill for them? That ain't fair.

Last edited by skyguy414; Mar 19, 2009 at 6:27 AM.
     
     
  #9375  
Old Posted Mar 19, 2009, 6:47 AM
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I say Salt Lake should buy them all one way bus tickets on the Wendover Fun Bus... get them drunk on the way out there and drop them off by the casino's...
     
     
  #9376  
Old Posted Mar 19, 2009, 2:02 PM
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The Rescue Mission (south of Pioneer park on 400 West) is trying to move to an industrial area where they can build a campus like facility. Right now the zoning does not allow it, so they are trying to change it. of course, the businesses around there hate the idea. But the rescue mission does try to treat the cause of homelessness with a focus on drug and alcohol treatment.

In talking to Pamela Atkinson, I don't think the operators see nearly the same social justice issues as some have mentioned. The overflow shelter in Midvale is in an industrial area and they don't seem to have many issues. The shelters were located where they are because it used to be the industrial area. I don't think the operators would have nearly the problem of relocating if they could be in a new facility that was designed for that use. Their land is so valuable where they are that I think they could trade the land for a new building.

Last edited by cololi; Mar 19, 2009 at 7:40 PM.
     
     
  #9377  
Old Posted Mar 19, 2009, 2:05 PM
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Quote:
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In talking to Pamela Atkinson, I don't think the operators don't see nearly the same social justice issues as some have mentioned. The overflow shelter in Midvale is in an industrial area and they don't seem to have many issues. The shelters were located where they are because it used to be the industrial area. I don't think the operators would have nearly the problem of relocating if they could be in a new facility that was designed for that use. Their land is so valuable where they are that I think they could trade the land for a new building.


Strongly Agree with your points Cololi, Thankyou. Also, very much appreciated your first-hand perspective Skyguy. It seems to me that everyone's points are valid and significant progress lies in a strong committment to many of the points. RFPCME's jist of long term committment to change and rehab., and Cololi's reality check on location would be the final goal for me.
     
     
  #9378  
Old Posted Mar 19, 2009, 9:45 PM
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Originally Posted by DMTower View Post
I say Salt Lake should buy them all one way bus tickets on the Wendover Fun Bus... get them drunk on the way out there and drop them off by the casino's...
Hey i went last night... my group was the youngest by like 20 years.
     
     
  #9379  
Old Posted Mar 19, 2009, 11:13 PM
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Ohhhh, so thats what happens....

when I flush the toilet. (sorry that was stupid, childish and in poor taste, but I couldn't resist. Long day!)

Quote:
Originally Posted by TANGELD_SLC View Post
I bet if they do move the homeless shelter, it will be to a Rose Park/Glendale location, because that's where everybody sends their unwanted 🞵🞵🞵🞵.
     
     
  #9380  
Old Posted Mar 20, 2009, 2:45 AM
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Any thoughts on 2nd South?

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Originally Posted by Urban_logic View Post
I have noticed that Gallivan picks up during certain parts of the day, but it could have more. I have also noticed that Main St and 2nd South have significant foot-traffic during the day - which intersect near Gallivan. I am really liking 2nd South. I think it's a nice East-West urban corridor from about 4th East to the Hub (6th West) - that's a mile and a half of urbanity! (if that's not a word, it is now ) If you get a chance, I would highly recomend driving, biking, or walking 2nd South starting just north of the library and going all the way past Gateway to 6th West. I see some major progress in the development of this corridor and see some more great potential in the future. I think it's doing alright on the street-front, however, I think it has some good skyline potential. I love the idea Cololi and Urbanboy are floating around of building some skyscrapers within the blocks. 2nd South already has some good mid-rises lining most of this corridor (4th East to 6th West) with a couple high-rises where it bisects Main St, but I can see some more high-rises going up between West Temple and 6th West. I think 2nd South could viably become a sort of sub-Main St - it bisects Main St at a pretty central location and has some good street life to it (plenty of bus routes travel this corridor, the street has 4-lanes of auto traffic, there is plenty of pedestrian traffic). Gallivan can deffinately become a central square being at the crossroads of these two streets.

Please, agree or disagree. The silence is defening! Lol
     
     
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