LOS ANGELES | Downtown Project Rundown 3.0

[ladowntowner]

Dunno guys.

I must say I do like this plan better than the previous one. I think it is an example of less is more.

Still, I agree the terrace is a waste of space and rather pointless, and would be better as a gently sloping/rolling lawn instead. I want to send the auto ramps to the cornfield (and I don't mean the other park on the north end of DT). I wish the streets would end at the park or at least dip under it, but that's a pipe dream as it would probably cost $100's of millions.

A feature I would really like to see is a little stream using the fountain as it's "headwaters" running downhill along the south end of the park and ending in a koi pond, perhaps with frogs and turtles too. Now that would be cool.

I do like the use of California native plants for the north end landscaping and cooler colors/plants for the south end. Nice touch.

[ladowntowner]

Originally Posted by Westsidelife

It sounds like a lot of you want something along the lines of the old Pershing Square...


Source

^Yes, now that would be truly amazing! It's beautiful! Why can't we just get something remotely resembling this, at least at Pershing Square? Why, oh why? How hard can this possibly be???

[Quixote]

Originally Posted by yeah215

Not only should the sidewalks be widened, the holes in the middle of the street should be filled in as landscaped medians. If that was done, widened sidewalks with street trees, and nice landscaped median, Grand Avenue would be significantly more inviting.

It looks like the master plan also calls for widening the sidewalks. Notice how there are only two lanes in each direction...


From Grand Avenue Committee (High Resolution)

[JDRCRASH]

Originally Posted by ladowntowner

Hi JDRCRASH,

I absolutely hate your idea of an elevated walkway for the Civic Center park. Hate it, hate it, hate it.

Did I mention that I hate it?

Yeah 4 times total, to be exact...

Anyway, can't at least part of the park have something like an elevated walkway, though? I haven't really seen too much of that here in L.A. I know people obviously want Civic Center Park be lush and green and paradise-like, but can't there be some variety?

[StethJeff]

Honestly, a huge green lawn lined with big native California trees is a huge improvement over this poorly pieced together park. This is gonna end up becoming another Pershing Square disaster. Who is gonna go out of their way to see a crappy outdoor theater or concrete gardens? These things exist in a ton of other parks, but what we don't seem to have is a huge open space in the middle of DTLA. This project shouldn't be that hard to figure out.

[ladowntowner]

^ I don't think it's possible to make something as bad or worse than Pershing Square, not even if you set out to do that as a goal. I mean, hand that out as an assignment to city planners and they wouldn't be successful. Of course, if you required an elevated walkway as a design element you might come close...

[ladowntowner]

Originally Posted by JDRCRASH

I know people obviously want Civic Center Park be lush and green and paradise-like...

Naaaah... why would we want something like that? That sounds too much like... uhm... what do you call it? Uhmm... uhhhh... oh, that's right!! A park! And of course none of us are interested anything like that, now are we?

Didn't think so.

[JDRCRASH]

Are there even any new plans to transform Pershing Square back into the look it had shown in the photo Westsidelife provided? I do admit that it looks more welcoming with a more green setting. (Although I think they should keep the ice rink).

[BrandonJXN]

^ The Park Fifth people want to remodel Pershing Square alongside building Park Fifth.

[ladowntowner]

Realistically, how likely do you think it is that Park Fifth will see the light of day at this point? Or any time henceforth...?

[WonderlandPark]

Park Fifth is game over, don't count on it helping Pershing Square.

[Quixote]

More green space could come eventually...

New Civic Park Details Unveiled

March 13, 2009

DOWNTOWN LOS ANGELES - Designers of the proposed 16-acre Civic Park, to rise on county-owned land stretching from the Music Center on Grand Avenue to City Hall on Spring Street, displayed their latest model during last Wednesday’s Downtown Los Angeles Neighborhood Council meeting.

The park, part of the Related Companies’ $3 billion, multi-phase Grand Avenue Project, has been in the works for years. Architects from Rios Clementi Hale Studios revealed two preliminary park designs last spring, but recently added some new details.

The new model closely resembles the simpler of the two designs presented last year. It features a renovated, historic fountain between the County Hall of Administration and the County Courthouse, new lawns, gardens and promenades along the edges. “It’s been refined and more developed,” said Rios Clementi Hale Senior Associate Tony Paradowski. “We reduced the paving from past designs and looked for existing paved areas that could be greened. We’ve been able to refine the terraces and expanded one right above the fountain to provide an overlook space.”

Though the Grand Avenue Project is on hold due to the current credit crunch, the park is already funded with $56 million from Related’s ground lease payment to develop the land. Another $26.4 million in Proposition 1C funds, approved by the Assembly in June, will be issued only after the rest of the Grand Avenue Project breaks ground, said Paradowski. The park is expected to break ground next year. Construction will take at least two years.

[BrandonJXN]

Originally Posted by ladowntowner

Realistically, how likely do you think it is that Park Fifth will see the light of day at this point? Or any time henceforth...?

Percentage wise, I'll give it a modest 15% chance of ever seeing the light of day.

[ladowntowner]

^ Good, now we've established that you aren't completely delusional, even though that 15% is a tad optimistic.

[RuFFy]

Hey folks. Sorry I didn't post my LA pics. While I was there I just went snap crazy and took a few thousand pics, most of which ended up being of the historic core. When I finally got around to the development side my battery died and I didn't want to kill you guys with iphone shots. AS a replacement, what I do have are civic park pics. My opinion is that the park doesn't need much changing because it's nice once you get past the parking entrances. This is what the fountain/park looks like as a result of the parking entrances.



Reason I went with that pic first is because that's how the park looks like from the steps of the music center. Now, from the steps of the park that you have to use to go around the parking entrance.



The fountain you can barely see from the music center in the first pic. This picture was taken from right in front of the parking entrance, instead of behind it. The difference it makes.



Here is the existing lawn at the proposted event lawn. Of course I didn't get the lawn but you can see it's very nice and peaceful. I'd hate to see the Jimmy Carter plaque and Veterans memorial be replaced by a stage because they add significance to the place and provide something to reflect upon. But here you have it.



and lastly, looking at the music center from the fountain, rather than looking at the fountain from the music center (1st pic).



It's my opinion that the park needs to be refined and made more inviting and open to the streets. I think it's a great space but in it's current state it seems private. The single most MAJOR problem with the park is the parking entrances. As far as the lot with the subway station I don't mind the Plaza. It'll probably handle the largest amount of foot traffic which can take a toll on a lawn. I don't know, I think they have the right idea, I'm just not happy with the Hill St. Parking entrance.

[Just-In-Cali]

Originally Posted by ladowntowner

^ Good, now we've established that you aren't completely delusional, even though that 15% is a tad optimistic.

Someone needs a hug. Man, downtowner, get over your anger.

Park Fifth will most likely go the way of Metropolis, a perennial "Waiting on the right time" project that looms for decades. It may have a slightly better chance in that it had already been approved and leasing had begun, but the earliest I see anything on it is maybe 2011.

[citywatch]

I believe the landscaping of areas like pershing sq is much more difficult cuz plants & trees have to sit on what's really a concrete pad. So unlike the original Pershing sq, which had nothing but dirt under it, the current Pershing Sq is located above a large underground parking structure.

I think there's underground parking lots below many parts of the civic ctr mall too. That means the weight of trees in particular have to be factored in to how much can be planted per sq ft.

I know there's a woodsy like garden on the rooftop of the former New Otani hotel in Little tokyo, but I believe even in that case trees & plants probably are affected by the fact they're located in a concrete tub. So I'd guess the size of trees & their root system can't be allowed to grow too large.

Best thing about the proposed civic ctr mall is it finally will get rid of the big surface parking lot directly west of city hall. That area of pavement has been a blight on the hood for yrs & yrs, & a very weak foreground for a bldg as important as city hall.

As for the new economics, I don't know if huge highrise residential projs can ever pencil out now that the psf pricing of condos----& apts too----is way lower than it was a few yrs ago.

The devlpr of the 717 olympic apt tower said his proj wouldn't make sense in the current economic climate----& he made that claim 2 yrs ago. I know the previous owner of the Roosevelt bldg who wanted to convert it to condos over 8 yrs ago dropped his plans cuz housing prices at that time had yet to soar as they would around 2003.

Sad that the devlpr of the park fifth proj may be experiecing deja vu all over again, since his original proposal in the 1980s for the land across from Pershing Sq also got walloped & then cancelled by the economy back then.



So lowrise wood framed----or primarily wood framed----bldgs like the sakura, the medallion, & the awesome, fantastic faux Euro ones built by GH Palmer will be the most anyone can expect to see rise in DT over the next several yrs. Even in that case, look at how the devlpr of the medallion struggled to get his proj under actual construction.

[citywatch]

Originally Posted by RuFFy

My opinion is that the park doesn't need much changing because it's nice once you get past the parking entrances.

Thanks for the photos. I've always thought that fountain was one of the better ones in all of LA. Biggest problem is it can't be seen from surrouding streets, which is true of the mall in general. Part of that is cuz govt bldgs surround the mall, but also cuz of the split level terrain of bunker Hill. So the west side of Grand Ave sits higher, around the music Ctr, than it does east of Grand, where the fountain is located.

I think some ppl also are putting the horse before the cart, believing that a nice enough park will suddenly bring out crowds of ppl. That may be true to a certain extent, but the biggest problem with the hood is that it still remains underpopulated, esp by the standards of very popular, congested urban hoods. So no matter the time of day, or the day of the wk or wkend----but esp during the wkends----much of DT can be surprisingly quiet & empty of ppl.

Only thing that will change that is to add alot more housing to the hood. But even that won't guarantee a complete switchover.

I've heard some ppl who live in DT say they believe quite a few of the owners or renters of residences in the hood leave the city on wkends, possibly traveling to their other homes near the bch or to spend time in Vegas or San diego, or who knows where.

[ladowntowner]

Originally Posted by Just-In-Cali

Someone needs a hug. Man, downtowner, get over your anger.

Naw, I'm good, but thanks for the sentiment just the same . I suppose I can come off that way (angry) here, but I imagine it's just my sarcasm with a dash of arrogance. Peace.

[ladowntowner]

Originally Posted by citywatch

I believe the landscaping of areas like pershing sq is much more difficult cuz plants & trees have to sit on what's really a concrete pad. So unlike the original Pershing sq, which had nothing but dirt under it, the current Pershing Sq is located above a large underground parking structure.

I think there's underground parking lots below many parts of the civic ctr mall too. That means the weight of trees in particular have to be factored in to how much can be planted per sq ft.

I know there's a woodsy like garden on the rooftop of the former New Otani hotel in Little tokyo, but I believe even in that case trees & plants probably are affected by the fact they're located in a concrete tub. So I'd guess the size of trees & their root system can't be allowed to grow too large.

How much do you think all that concrete hardscape at Pershing Sqaure weighs relative to soil and cellulose/H2O in the form of plants? Based on my recollection, concrete has a much higher density than either your typical soil, water or plant matter, therefore is heavier. Now regarding root systems and their destructive potential on concrete/stone that point is valid. Fine, put in a large central lawn, with larger trees with deep roots around the perimeter, and trees and various other plants having more shallow root systems in the central areas. This really isn't that complicated.

Originally Posted by citywatch

Best thing about the proposed civic ctr mall is it finally will get rid of the big surface parking lot directly west of city hall. That area of pavement has been a blight on the hood for yrs & yrs, & a very weak foreground for a bldg as important as city hall.

I absolutely agree with this statement.