Current and Future Alternative Energy Generation and Use in Hamilton

[omro]

Any current generation/use of alternative energy in Hamilton?

Any alternative energy plans for Hamilton in the future? The one I came across, and have referenced before, was a wind farm out on Lake Ontario, but I don't know if that was a proposal or an actual plan.

[emge]

it's not Hamilton-specific, but you can get BullFrog power in Hamilton - I've definitely seen lawn signs from houses using it in Strathcona, and I think in Kirkendall also.

(For BullFrog power, how much of that is wind and how much is water I'm not sure. *edit [found it]: 80% water, 20% wind in Ontario*)

[oldcoote]

I use Bullfrog. A little more expensive ($1 / day they say).

Note: The hydro generation is not from damming but from run of the river generation.

[drpgq]

I don't know if it necessarily counts, but I know Bartek Ingredients installed a turbine recently to generate power for their facility that uses the excess steam already produced by their process. Personally I think projects like this and the unfortunately scrapped Dofasco one are more realistic in terms of generated power in Hamilton than wind power. I saw a wind map of Ontario once and from what I recall Hamilton was pretty mediocre, although I think the lake was better. Lake Superior kicked ass.

[BrianE]

www.windatlas.ca

There's a lot of good wind and meteorological info there.

And yes, Hamilton and the GTA is subpar windwise. Except for out in the middle of the lake, there's money to be made out there.

Has anybody else looked into single home solar panels or small scale wind power? I have and I've been very disapointed. The start up costs are huge ($10 - $20 000) and you still only make enough energy for 25% - 50% of your needs.

The switch to green energy on every house is a daunting task if not completely impossible.

Has anybody looked into Energy Co-ops?

[bornagainbiking]

http://www.guelphsolar.ca/bulkpurchase.pdf

[emge]

Originally Posted by oldcoote

I use Bullfrog. A little more expensive ($1 / day they say).

Note: The hydro generation is not from damming but from run of the river generation.

Percentage-wise, how much would you say your energy bill has gone up by? (I know I could compare kilowatt hour prices and figure it out that way too).

[highwater]

We have bullfrog too. I'd say it's about 10-15% higher.

[omro]

It's all about economies of scale and supply and demand. The more people deliberately use green power, the greater the infrastructure for generating it will be put in place and the lower the price will get.

I was reading on Raise the Hammer I think about the price for electricity being artificially low. How much is the government subsidy each year? What about killing the subsidy, so that people paid the real price for their power, but instead of saving that money, the government pumped that money into renewable sources of electricity generation so that over time they could gradually lower the prices again once more power was generated in a way that cost little or nothing to generate.

[drpgq]

Originally Posted by omro

It's all about economies of scale and supply and demand. The more people deliberately use green power, the greater the infrastructure for generating it will be put in place and the lower the price will get.

I was reading on Raise the Hammer I think about the price for electricity being artificially low. How much is the government subsidy each year? What about killing the subsidy, so that people paid the real price for their power, but instead of saving that money, the government pumped that money into renewable sources of electricity generation so that over time they could gradually lower the prices again once more power was generated in a way that cost little or nothing to generate.

Uh, what subsidy is this?

[bornagainbiking]

Omro
Just a bit of history. The infrastructure was there and still is and it is paid for 10 times over. Many people had electric heat and it was reasonable, Along came natural gas and the price of Electric heat rose at the same time and was unreal this made natural gas more economical. yeah fossil fuels.
Now combine this with Ontario Hydro got real top heavy and the head of hydro was making more than the ontario premier, now my time line imay be off but Hydro ran up a debt. and they added the debt repayment into our monthly bills. One head of hydro was sending her kids to school in a limo.
So we pay our electric bill with all the add ons.
Mismanagment by high priced so called experts did not help. This went on for years.
So no, we should not pay more, we have some huge generating facilities.
In hamilton we pay electricity and water together. We pay a rate for water used and 95% of the same rate for disposal.
Yes renewable energy is the way and with time we may get there.
In Germany they are putting solar panels on every barn and selling the power back to the grid, Canada lost a top notch solar panel manufacturing plant to East Germany.
It seems that we need alternative methods but it would mean a loss of income to ontario hydro. so is the government really going to back renewable energy.
Offer some real incentives to the homeowners to install solar or wind and it will be viable.

[MsMe]

Same story for oil heating too Bornagainbiking.

[omro]

Originally Posted by drpgq

Uh, what subsidy is this?

I read this in one of Ryan's comments to this article here:

Green Energy Act for Home Resales a Good Deal

If Ontario charged a market rate for electricity instead of fixing the price at 5.7 cents / kilowatt-hour, people would voluntarily invest in efficiency and conservation and the government wouldn't feel the need to require energy audits.

As it stands, electricity is so artificially cheap that it's nothing to leave your air conditioner running in your 3,000 square foot house while you're at work.

This is a case of government intervention to solve a problem caused by government intervention.

To those who would argue that the price control helps Ontario's poor: if poor people can't afford market rates for electricity, then subsidize electricity for the poor. Better yet, significantly increase funding for conservation and efficiency retrofits for low-income homes.

By subsidizing electricity for everyone in the guise of helping the poor, we're actually spending far more money overall, while using public money to subsidize upper-middle class families leaving their air conditioners on all day while Ontario buys dirty coal-fired power from the Ohio Valley at 30 cents a kilowatt-hour (and guess who is the most hurt by poor air quality).

If you ask me, that's utterly unconscionable.

Which suggests that there is a subsidy.

A quick google finds this article from last year's Toronto Star:

End to hydro rate subsidy urged

Clean Air Alliance says $5 billion better spent on consumer rebates

Or, in my opinion, building the renewable means of electricity generation that will ultimately lower the price of electricity again when the cost of generation is brought down.

[drpgq]

Originally Posted by omro

I read this in one of Ryan's comments to this article here:

Green Energy Act for Home Resales a Good Deal



Which suggests that there is a subsidy.

A quick google finds this article from last year's Toronto Star:

End to hydro rate subsidy urged



Or, in my opinion, building the renewable means of electricity generation that will ultimately lower the price of electricity again when the cost of generation is brought down.

Actually that Star article is fairly interesting on what is considerer a subsidy:

"Specifically, it determined the province pays nearly $2 billion so that Ontario Power Generation and other owners of hydroelectric power stations can pay royalties for water that are well below market rates. Ontario Power Generation also gets a below-market return on its generating assets that amounts to $850 million annually."

OK the $850 million I can see. How are market rates determined for the water rights?

"Another $2 billion goes toward a provincial sales tax exemption on grid-supplied electricity and interest payments on the former Ontario Hydro's $19.3 billion in stranded nuclear debt."

I don't think that a sales tax exemption really counts as a subsidy. Interest payments I think in principle don't have sales taxes in Canada, although I could be wrong.

[Duckyboy]

Originally Posted by drpgq

Interest payments I think in principle don't have sales taxes in Canada, although I could be wrong.

Pretty sure they don't.