Salt Lake Transit News Thread

[WeST]

Originally Posted by jtrent77

While I think mass transit should be an equal or cheaper price as compared to driving, I also think that the transit system in Utah has a quite a bit of time to go before it is in a position to be attractive. Let's say something happened tomorrow and everyone decided to take mass transit--the system just isn't capable of handling such a situation--and despite some people's philosophies, it never will be--just accept that I'm sorry.

However, as time goes on and light rail and front runner expand, the possibility of taking mass transit will be open to more and more people. And while there are buses that people could take now...let's be honest, buses are not "sexy" and will likely never recover the negative connotation that they have gotten.

In time, as more and more stations open up, I think a greater and greater percentage of people will learn to appreciate the system, and as they do so they will use it more often--especially as populations increase and traffic gets more congested. As people end up taking the train more to commute only then will they become more interested in taking it for leisure reasons as well. But ultimately it will come down to greater access and greater populations. Those people that think the greater population is just going to switch to mass transit over night because it is "better," well, I think you aren't being realistic.

I agree with you jtrent 77. I see mass transit as being part of a single transit system with the realization that the car is the preferable mode of transport and will be unless there are major advances in mass transit technology that could make it real cheap and quicker. Mass transit should be a legitimate option that allows for cities to enact policies that increase density and slow outward growth.

Concerning your comment about buses never becoming "sexy" again (if they ever were), I think there are "bus type" technologies that are promising. Consider this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=in5TjgmjKB4&feature=related[/URL]

[i-215]

I hate to be a nay-sayer, but did you see the car traffic passing the "tram" (bus)?

Until it's going faster than the cars, people like me aren't gonna ride it.

(F.Y.I. that's an awesome rendering, but the narration is terrible. It's mostly the writing ... very bureaucratic, jargon sounding. Plus, I think they used IBM text to speech to read it.)

[jtrent77]

Originally Posted by WeST

I agree with you jtrent 77. I see mass transit as being part of a single transit system with the realization that the car is the preferable mode of transport and will be unless there are major advances in mass transit technology that could make it real cheap and quicker. Mass transit should be a legitimate option that allows for cities to enact policies that increase density and slow outward growth.

Concerning your comment about buses never becoming "sexy" again (if they ever were), I think there are "bus type" technologies that are promising. Consider this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=in5TjgmjKB4&feature=related[/URL]

I dunno...I think if you had that system and no tires (i.e. a streetcar) somehow it would be more enticing to people. I don't know what it is about trains that entice people more but we are just more drawn to them. The bus system isn't out--in fact buses will always be around because they are far more cost effective to get to areas you don't want to build tracks too. They are also a great way of getting people from "remote" locations to the train stops.

[SLC Projects]

Does anyone know what's going on in Sandy near the SLCC campus? Looks like work for Frontrunner.There are a few cranes there. Is that going to be a station? Does anyone know?

[Makid]

My understanding is that they are working on a bridge for Front Runner to cross from the East side of the Union Pacific tracks to the West side.

[Urban_logic]

Originally Posted by Future Mayor

Wow! Look at all that potential! I can see a lot of dense developments and TOD's filling in this area (especially when FrontRunner is completed) in conjunction with a beautiful river-front open space along the Jordan River (there already is, but I can see it being expanded to include more trails, playgrounds, parks, swamp lands, and just untouched land). The Draper-Bluffdale-Riverton area shows a lot of great potential! Let's just hope they develop it wisely (it looks like they are doing a good job so far - as far as planning goes, anyway).

Originally Posted by Orlando

What good would a street car do from North Temple in Salt Lake to centerville in Davis county do when we have Front Runner that covers that portion? Besides street cars are much slower than light rail and commuter rail.

I see two deffinate advantages: 1) Much cheaper than FrontRunner. 2) Can service local areas in between FrontRunner stations.

Originally Posted by cololi

This should be LRT, not street car.

I totally agree! When I think "street car", I think San Francisco. As nice as those street-cars are, they get extremely crowded and aren't the most comfortable. I couldn't imagine riding one of those all the way to Centerville!! Then there's the fact that it's on the street - which isn't any better than a bus - or a car for that matter. That would be a long, uncomfortable commute. Light-rail would be much more efficient and comfortable. Even a BRT route would be better. I think a street-car system in SLC right around downtown and south east into the sugar house/Harvard-Yale area would be a great investment. Into Davis County, however, I think is a terrible idea

[cololi]

Originally Posted by Urban_logic

When I think "street car", I think San Francisco. As nice as those street-cars are, they get extremely crowded and aren't the most comfortable. I couldn't imagine riding one of those all the way to Centerville!! Then there's the fact that it's on the street - which isn't any better than a bus - or a car for that matter. That would be a long, uncomfortable commute. Light-rail would be much more efficient and comfortable. Even a BRT route would be better. I think a street-car system in SLC right around downtown and south east into the sugar house/Harvard-Yale area would be a great investment. Into Davis County, however, I think is a terrible idea

Street car has come a long way since the historic trolleys in San Fran. They are more like a light rail car, only narrower and not as long. They do travel in the roadway, but their purpose is not to move people fast over a long period of time. Trax through downtown pretty much operates as a street car. Picture the univeristy cars, which are often a single car, travelling in the traffic lane with stops every 1000-1200 feet. the biggest benefit of street car is that it is much cheaper to build than LRt because you generally don't have to relocate undergound utilities, which can eat up a construction budget very quickly.

A street car is intended to link adjacent and nearby neighborhoods. Not cities. Most modern street car systems are considered development oriented transit, meaning they tend to entice private investment dollars along the route because they are permanent ifrastructure. Without it, the investment dollars are unlikely to go into those developments. Buses don't do this because the routes can move. See the Portland system as an example.

[Urban_logic]

Originally Posted by cololi

Street car has come a long way since the historic trolleys in San Fran. They are more like a light rail car, only narrower and not as long. They do travel in the roadway, but their purpose is not to move people fast over a long period of time. Trax through downtown pretty much operates as a street car. Picture the univeristy cars, which are often a single car, travelling in the traffic lane with stops every 1000-1200 feet. the biggest benefit of street car is that it is much cheaper to build than LRt because you generally don't have to relocate undergound utilities, which can eat up a construction budget very quickly.

A street car is intended to link adjacent and nearby neighborhoods. Not cities. Most modern street car systems are considered development oriented transit, meaning they tend to entice private investment dollars along the route because they are permanent ifrastructure. Without it, the investment dollars are unlikely to go into those developments. Buses don't do this because the routes can move. See the Portland system as an example.

I was actually talking about the street cars - not trolleys. People not from San Francisco often confuse them - it's a common mistake.

Street car:

Feels more like a bus - enclosed. It's like a bus on rails. San Francisco's street cars are propelled by an internal engine or over-head electrical hook-up.



Trolly:

Open to the outside (you can hang out the side). These are nice because you can just hop off the trolly whenever (as long as it's going slow enough). Street cars require the driver to open the doors at stops and climbing over people (like a bus).



Notice the street car is on rails with one rail for each wheel to move on. The trolly has these two rails as well, but notice the metal strip in between the rails. That is where the underground cable hooks onto the car. The Trolly can't move at all - it relies soley on the cable to pull it along (think of it as a sail boat relying on the wind - the sail is like the hook, the wind like the cable - the boat its self can't move at all). In the olden days, one trolly would climb a hill while two descended the other side (the descending ones would pull the other one up) and also use water turbines to pull the cable. Now a days, electricity drives underground motors that move the cable, thus pulling the car (S.F. gets this electricity from dams in the Searas - so don't worry, it's green).

I see what you mean. SLC's would look quite different from either of these. Couldn't they make them look like the historic SLC Trolleys from back in the day? Oh well, I'd be fine with either one.

Doesn't BRT require prioritized lanes with curbs (permanent infrastructure) in the middle of the street? That's what I was thinking of.

I'm guessing the reason street cars are more local is probably because they aren't very convenient when you travel too far (like to a neighboring city). If, however, you just want to hop on and go a few blocks, it's rather convenient wisking people around from one part of a city to another.

[delts145]

I tend to follow your line of thinking Urban logic. The metro really is becoming one big city anyway. It's not as if you would say, Oh, here's a system for Bountiful and one for No. Salt Lake and one for Farmington. When they talk of a trolley system to Centerville, they're not thinking of a mode that serves people in the same way as FrontRunner, or even TRAX. I think a trolley line to Centerville makes allot of sense, and is a great way to give people all along that line a means to make short jaunts from one part of town to another part of the neighboring town...say No. Salt Lake to South Bountiful etc. If it's a corridor that becomes densely developed, say like the huge community being planned in No. Salt Lake or the Market Station, and many others that would result, it could be a very useful tool in creating urbanesque choices. Driving along the 89 between Salt Lake and Ogden, you can really get a feel for the 'sky is the limit' vision that developers would probably be dreaming with a convenient Trolley in the picture. For some reason a Trolley adds this intrinsic and very real romantic appeal to a development. People today are looking for a return to that romance of the past. You see it in the new architecture of homes, and commercial development. It's apparant in everthing from the design of auto's and street planning, to the clothes we wear.

I'm one of the many tens of millions that considered themselves a hopeless romantic. You know what, "A trolley going in along the Sugarhouse to State Street route, makes that one of the first corridors I would look at for residence, if I were moving to SL Valley." I can't stress enough the look on conventioneers faces and locals alike last week downtown, as TRAX coaches passed them. These were grown people, yet their faces looked like children's on Christmas morning. This was especially evident when TRAX would round a bend at an intersection.

There are many reasons I guess to argue for just developing an efficient BRT system. But again, there are situations where a Trolley is an easier and more economical fix and again, one cannot discount the very real psychological lure with trolleys. People seem to prefer and accept the Trolley as a positive connotation and a link to a past era when times were simpler and more elegant. On the other hand, buses are something of a cold, modern negative and a means of last resort. I think many islands of urban density would be greatly encouraged along certain corridors, if Trolleys were placed in their midst. I would not take a Trolley from Provo to Lehi, I would opt for FrontRunner. However, from Provo to Orem or Orem to Lindon etc., would be a definite option for me. If I could take a Trolley from North Provo (Riverside) to BYU or downtown Provo, that would be great.

Wow, I just keep thinking of more Trolley routes. If I could board a Trolley at a newly restored/developed Old Main in Lehi, that would take me to a planned mall/urban center at Thanksgiving Point or to an Uber Chic Gehryville, I would move to a one of those Trolley station developments along the line in a heart beat.

[cololi]

UL and Delts make good points. However, there is a point where time and convenience meet and there is not much wiggle room in terms of making a system work within that small spectrum of being timely and convenient yet economically viable to operate. A street car system from N Temple to Centerville would likely take about 45 minutes from one end to the other. So, unless you had a lot of cars, head times would be about what they are for a bus or worse. for local trips, people aren't going to wait so the system starts to fail. One solution is to add cars. But each modern street car costs about 3-4 million dollars plus shipping, so adding enough to cut that head time down to under 20 minutes adds up fast and often makes many systems not feasible to get public support funding wise.

Development potential is also a major factor in route analysis. If a davis county line has enough development potential along it, then it may change the game. I have no idea what is on the ground along the proposed route or what the zoning allows. In SLC, the sugarhouse line has very little potential along most of the route, but huge potential on the east and west sides.

Now, over time, you could add a bunch of cars as the system builds, but if your first line is a long, inefficient line that costs a bunch of money, it is going to be incredibly difficult to fund a line.

[Urban_logic]

How about something like this tram in Greece?



I could see something like that gliding down State Street, 7th East, 13th East, Foothill, and/or Hwy 89 into southern Davis County.

[cololi]

that is a modern street car. that is exactly what I am talking about.

[Urban_logic]

Originally Posted by cololi

that is a modern street car. that is exactly what I am talking about.

Maybe we could bring in some of these with one "historic route" that goes up into the Aves to resemble the ones from the olden days. Maybe we could have this historic route begin at Trolley Square? Then move up 7th East, turn down South Temple, then go up into the Aves. The rest can be these slick, modern ones.

[ragerdude]

From the UTA website:

NOTICE OF PUBLIC SCOPING OPEN HOUSES - Ogden-Weber State University Transit Corridor Project
03/06/2009

NOTICE OF PUBLIC SCOPING OPEN HOUSES UTAH TRANSIT AUTHORITY
Re: Scoping open houses to be held regarding the Ogden-Weber State University Transit Corridor Project

I. The Utah Transit Authority (UTA) is holding public scoping open house meetings for the Ogden-WSU Transit Corridor project, which is focused on improving transit service in a 5-mile corridor between downtown Ogden and Weber State University (WSU). The corridor connects the Ogden Intermodal Center/Frontrunner commuter rail station to the area's major employment, housing, commercial and education destinations, including downtown Ogden, WSU and McKay-Dee Hospital. Streetcar, bus rapid transit and general improvements to existing bus service are among the initial set of alternatives being considered in this corridor. The project is also considering a variety of routes to connect between downtown Ogden and WSU.

II. The meetings will be held:

* Tuesday, March 24, 2009, from 4 to 7 p.m. at the Ogden Eccles Conference Center (ground floor-small ballroom), 2415 Washington Blvd., Ogden, Utah.
* Thursday March 26, 2009, from 11 a.m. to 1 p.m. at Weber State University Student Union Bldg. (second level-main auditorium), 1217 University Circle, Ogden, Utah.

UTA is holding these open house meetings in partnership with the Federal Transit Administration as part of early scoping activities for a planning Alternatives Analysis (AA) required by Title 49 United States Code (U.S.C.) Sec. 5309 for the selection of alternatives that may be subject to environmental review under the National Environmental Policy Act (NEPA). Public comments are invited on the scope of the alternatives analysis, the purpose and need for the project, the range of alternatives, and community impacts and benefits to be considered.

III. The format of these meetings will be as follows:

a. A short formal presentation on the project repeated approximately every 45 minutes
b. Open house to review and discuss proposed alternatives with UTA representatives (between each presentation)
c. Public comment accepted at any time during the meetings

IV. Scoping materials for these meetings will be provided at the meetings and are available on UTA's website at www.rideuta.com (see PDF download below). Written comments may also be submitted to the following address: Ogden/WSU Transit Corridor Project, c/o Elizabeth Scanlon, Utah Transit Authority, 669 West 200 South, Salt Lake City, Utah 84101; or e-mailed to [email protected]. Comments must be e-mailed or postmarked no later than April 30, 2009.

V. To assure full participation at this hearing, accommodations for effective communication, such as sign language interpreters or printed materials in alternate formats, must be requested at least five (5) working days prior to the date of the scheduled event. Please direct requests for accommodations to the Utah Transit Authority, ADA Compliance Officer at 801-287-3536, or dial 711 to make a relay call. To request a language interpreter, please contact Elizabeth Scanlon, UTA, at 801-236-4706 or [email protected].

[Future Mayor]

Oh Oh, I've got a great idea. How about a Gondola?

[i-215]

What ever happened to that idea?

[ragerdude]

I think it went the way of most pipe dreams...and down the toilet.

[Zionide]

New to this thread, and though I've browsed all 70-odd pages, I haven't read each one so my apologies if something like this has already been discussed and I just missed it.

In re-reading some articles about the proposed Sugar House trolley from the 2100 So. Trax station east to Sugar House business distrcit, I was wondering what you all thought of a trolley or streetcar running in some configuration from Trolley Square (really, from the Trolley Square TRAX stop on 400 South), through 9th & 9th, to Westminster, on to the Sugar House Granite Block.

I'm sure it's a far-off dream at this point, but it seems like a great way to link three prominent shopping districts with mass transit and provide an additional transportation option to Westminster students.

[cololi]

Originally Posted by Zionide

New to this thread, and though I've browsed all 70-odd pages, I haven't read each one so my apologies if something like this has already been discussed and I just missed it.

In re-reading some articles about the proposed Sugar House trolley from the 2100 So. Trax station east to Sugar House business distrcit, I was wondering what you all thought of a trolley or streetcar running in some configuration from Trolley Square (really, from the Trolley Square TRAX stop on 400 South), through 9th & 9th, to Westminster, on to the Sugar House Granite Block.

I'm sure it's a far-off dream at this point, but it seems like a great way to link three prominent shopping districts with mass transit and provide an additional transportation option to Westminster students.

Welcome. I think any way to connect the top destination points in the City is good. I think over the next year or so, you will see a fairly well developed street car plan come out of city hall. Now we just have to figure out how to pay for it.

[Future Mayor]

Welcome zionide.

I have to give you credit, it's a real chore when you first stumble on this forum, there is so much to read. Don't forget to check out all the other SLC and Utah related threads.

I think that would be a great idea to be able to connect three major neighborhoods. I think if done correctly you could revive and/or expand some additional quality neighborhoods that exist and active but could still grow and become a neighborhood hub.


Ok how about this. South from 400 S on 600 E (trolley) to 900 S, turns east on 900 S (Liberty Park) to 900 E (9th and 9th). South on 900 E to 1300 S (small neighborhood commercial core) turns east on 1700 E (Albertsons) to 1100 E at 1100 E it turns south with a stop at the base of Westminster, and straight down 1100 E to Sugarhouse to join the E/W line down to Trax.