Portland Transit | TriMet/Mass Transit News

[alexjon]

Originally Posted by JordanL

They need to run streetcar a LOT more frequently if we want it to be a real downtown circulator...

It's usually faster for me to walk from PSU to Powell's.

And? Is the sum total of your economic contribution to Portland greater than all the people that ride the streetcar every day combined? If not, I'm guessing your non-stop nose-thumbing really serves no purpose.

[JordanL]

Originally Posted by alexjon

And? Is the sum total of your economic contribution to Portland greater than all the people that ride the streetcar every day combined? If not, I'm guessing your non-stop nose-thumbing really serves no purpose.

And neither does the streetcar at frequencies that are longer than many busses.

[Okstate]

Originally Posted by zilfondel

Yeah, only young people have cell phones? Planet from?

I didn't mean to get your feathers ruffled. Pick you battles.

[PacificNW]

Why are people, generally speaking, always in such a hurry? I find the MUNI (San Francisco) and MAX comparable in speed and service. The same can be said for comparing the 2 cities "street/cable" cars. They were not designed to be rapid transit. Portland doesn't have a BART system yet but, one day, it probably will.

[JordanL]

Originally Posted by PacificNW

Why are people, generally speaking, always in such a hurry? I find the MUNI (San Francisco) and MAX comparable in speed and service. The same can be said for comparing the 2 cities "street/cable" cars. They were not designed to be rapid transit. Portland doesn't have a BART system yet but, one day, it probably will.

I believe the statement made was that streetcars should circulate downtown.

I pointed out that the frequencies were not short enough to act as a circulator downtown.

I don't think that has much to do with "fast" enough or anything, Portland's downtown is small... I can walk the entirity of central downtown without a streetcar going by.

The streetcar does assist in these areas for people who can't walk or walk quickly, due to disability or other situation.

The streetcar is ALWAYS useful if you want to get from central downtown to any other "greater" downtown areas, like 23rd or SoWa. But still, right now, many busses run more frequently, and often you'd be better off catching the 15 for instance to get to 23rd.

I'd be all for increasing frequency of streetcars to something like every 8 minutes or less. With ridership levels, I'd almost say it's a necessity.

[PacificNW]

↑ Thanks for helping me understand your viewpoint better. I agree with increasing the frequency...along with fewer stops??

[JordanL]

Originally Posted by PacificNW

↑ Thanks for helping me understand your viewpoint better. I agree with increasing the frequency...along with fewer stops??

In strategic areas, sure. The travel times aren't really THAT bad... although they are a bit agonizing at times.

[bvpcvm]

i agree that the wait is sometimes too much. and there are times when i've been able to beat it on foot - especially when it gets hung up around powell's. but on the other hand, many is the time i've run for it and not been able to catch it. once you're on it though, it doesn't seem particularly slow.

luckily, it wouldn't take that much to improve service: as MANY people have said, some stops could be eliminated. they could add signal priority in some places. and of course the frequency could be improved. none of those improvements, however, require a complete re-think of streetcar in general, which to me says that, while it may have flaws, it's a sound idea.

[JordanL]

Give it a right of way on 10th and 11th. It's not like either of those streets see that much traffic.

[PacificNW]

↑ Do you mean giving the streetcar the right of way at all the intersections of 10th and 11th or make auto traffic move off the tracks when a streetcar approaches "on" 10th/11th, or all of the above? (With the possible exceptions of the MAX intersections @ 10th and 11th. MAX having the right of way over the streetcar??) Am I making sense? I doubt it. Bedtime.

[JordanL]

Originally Posted by PacificNW

↑ Do you mean giving the streetcar the right of way at all the intersections of 10th and 11th or make auto traffic move off the tracks when a streetcar approaches "on" 10th/11th, or all of the above? (With the possible exceptions of the MAX intersections @ 10th and 11th. MAX having the right of way over the streetcar??) Am I making sense? I doubt it. Bedtime.

I mean move cars off the tracks period. No right turns on 10th or 11th. (South of Burnside this is... I'm not sure what other spots on the streetcarline would definitely work, but I know it would work south of Burnside.)

[twofiftyfive]

Originally Posted by JordanL

I mean move cars off the tracks period. No right turns on 10th or 11th. (South of Burnside this is... I'm not sure what other spots on the streetcarline would definitely work, but I know it would work south of Burnside.)

Cars have to turn right across the streetcar tracks (but not at an intersection) to get into the parking garage south of the Galleria, so you'd have to make some exceptions.

[alexjon]

Originally Posted by JordanL

And neither does the streetcar at frequencies that are longer than many busses.

Your argument is not that it's not frequent enough or fast enough overall, it's that it's not frequent or fast enough for you. The streetcar carries more people than most (if not all) bus routes in Portland and is still set to carry still more.

A good way to test the value of such a system is to look at the total value of projects built since the alignment was announced and the salary held down by the regular riders. By that metric, the benefit is over a quarter of a billion dollars yearly in income and billions in development.

But it's not frequent or fast enough for you. Nothing changes about the argument, even when ridership increases. It's hard to find where it could possibly be founded in common sense. It's very similar to the argument that people who ride the streetcar are inherently foolish.

[Okstate]

I've asked this b4 but i'll give it another shot. Does anyone know if they're turning the old public restrooms on the Pioneer Courthouse block into news stands still?

[Mallory2008]

Originally Posted by alexjon

Your argument is not that it's not frequent enough or fast enough overall, it's that it's not frequent or fast enough for you. The streetcar carries more people than most (if not all) bus routes in Portland and is still set to carry still more.

A good way to test the value of such a system is to look at the total value of projects built since the alignment was announced and the salary held down by the regular riders. By that metric, the benefit is over a quarter of a billion dollars yearly in income and billions in development.

But it's not frequent or fast enough for you. Nothing changes about the argument, even when ridership increases. It's hard to find where it could possibly be founded in common sense. It's very similar to the argument that people who ride the streetcar are inherently foolish.

Development is nice, but the central goal of any transit system must be to move people around effectively. The true measure of a transit investment is how many people can it transport? 15 minute headways in a dense urban setting during rush hour is not acceptable.

My experiences on the streetcar during rush hour: it is full by the time we round Market onto 10th. I mean shoulder to shoulder "crush load" full. Often I don't even think we should or even can stop to pick up more passengers, and this is barely 1/4 of the way into the route.

Southbound, I have less experience doing this but about 3 weeks ago it took 8 minutes to go 2 blocks (from Davis to Burnside) on 11th Ave. I understand this is a regular occurrence. It isn't too slow "for you;" it's too slow for "the vast majority of people." That is simply unacceptable for an urban transit system.

The streetcar needs much more frequent service, particularly at peak commuting hours. It needs signals at choke points such as the brewery blocks, and exclusive right of way wherever it can be made available. You think it's bad now? It's only going to get slower unless improvements are made.

[alexjon]

Originally Posted by Mallory2008

Development is nice, but the central goal of any transit system must be to move people around effectively. The true measure of a transit investment is how many people can it transport? 15 minute headways in a dense urban setting during rush hour is not acceptable.

My experiences on the streetcar during rush hour: it is full by the time we round Market onto 10th. I mean shoulder to shoulder "crush load" full. Often I don't even think we should or even can stop to pick up more passengers, and this is barely 1/4 of the way into the route.

Southbound, I have less experience doing this but about 3 weeks ago it took 8 minutes to go 2 blocks (from Davis to Burnside) on 11th Ave. I understand this is a regular occurrence. It isn't too slow "for you;" it's too slow for "the vast majority of people." That is simply unacceptable for an urban transit system.

The streetcar needs much more frequent service, particularly at peak commuting hours. It needs signals at choke points such as the brewery blocks, and exclusive right of way wherever it can be made available. You think it's bad now? It's only going to get slower unless improvements are made.

"It's always full, but inadequate for the majority of people"? That's your argument? That it exceeded projected ridership and is bumping up against max peak hour capacity? And then it's too slow, you say, implying nobody should/would ride it, even though you say a second prior that it's running at capacity.

There are obviously plans to expand service, and with the MAX on the transit mall, there should be a little more capacity available. Assuming that beating projections and hitting capacity means an abject failure is one of the worst lines of reasoning I've ever seen.

And transit runs slowly through urban environs at peak hours, no matter where it's at. I sat for nearly 2 minutes mere feet from 42nd Street/Times Square last week on the 7 train because transit systems get packed. With single digit headways, that's just as bad as taking 10 minutes to go 400 feet.

[urbanlife]

Originally Posted by Mallory2008

Development is nice, but the central goal of any transit system must be to move people around effectively. The true measure of a transit investment is how many people can it transport? 15 minute headways in a dense urban setting during rush hour is not acceptable.

My experiences on the streetcar during rush hour: it is full by the time we round Market onto 10th. I mean shoulder to shoulder "crush load" full. Often I don't even think we should or even can stop to pick up more passengers, and this is barely 1/4 of the way into the route.

Southbound, I have less experience doing this but about 3 weeks ago it took 8 minutes to go 2 blocks (from Davis to Burnside) on 11th Ave. I understand this is a regular occurrence. It isn't too slow "for you;" it's too slow for "the vast majority of people." That is simply unacceptable for an urban transit system.

The streetcar needs much more frequent service, particularly at peak commuting hours. It needs signals at choke points such as the brewery blocks, and exclusive right of way wherever it can be made available. You think it's bad now? It's only going to get slower unless improvements are made.

Adding more trains to the route during peak hours would aid the amount of people using it...but I am confused if you are for or against the streetcar because you point out how high the ridership is during peak hours, thus would lead me to believe that it is a useful form of transportation that needs to be expanded on.

As for development, the reason why streetcars are great for development is that you cant move tracks around. Once they go in, a business knows that it will be a connection to their area that wont go away. Buses have never had this kind of response.

Case in point, how much development as buses spawned on the Central Eastside? How much do you think a streetcar line will spawn? Using the Pearl District as a template, I am going to say there is going to be a massive amount of new buildings along the new line in the next 20 years, what city wouldnt want that?

[JordanL]

Hahaha...

This is priceless... alexjon doesn't know what to do when I agree with a pet project of his and promote expanding it's utility and usage...

[alexjon]

Originally Posted by JordanL

Hahaha...

This is priceless... alexjon doesn't know what to do when I agree with a pet project of his and promote expanding it's utility and usage...

You don't agree, you whine and whine, saying it's pointless because it has lower frequency than most buses. That's like me saying I'm all for freeways "if only they'd tear out a couple of lanes and put in high speed rail!!"

Don't kid yourself

[MarkDaMan]

Originally Posted by Okstate

I've asked this b4 but i'll give it another shot. Does anyone know if they're turning the old public restrooms on the Pioneer Courthouse block into news stands still?

I hear ya!

Tad Savinar did an top to bottom, front to back review of every block on the transit mall and came up with an entire list of small to large things that could be done to improve the environment on the mall. One of his suggestions was a newspaper stand as you mentioned. I have not heard if that is going forward. But with KGW in the square, it seems like the 'theme' of the area could support a news/magazine stand.

A good article on Tad Savinar's suggestions:

http://www.allbusiness.com/north-america/united-states-oregon/4109174-1.html