Portland Transit | TriMet/Mass Transit News

[JordanL]

Originally Posted by NJD

one could argue that statement.

With what?

[zilfondel]

Okay, MAX looks pretty crowded...


flickr photo by MarkDM

[zilfondel]

How about the city of Portland proper?

[Okstate]

^ The young with their cell phones & the old with their books.

[zilfondel]

come again?

oh, I see the book...

[urbanlife]

Originally Posted by zilfondel

How about the city of Portland proper?

I still think we are too small of a city to need it. I think we would be much better off linking as much of our city back to a above ground rail grid as we can.

The city is a perfect candidate to return back to its streetcar days.

Numbers dont seem to hold up to the calls for a subway line any time soon for the city. I am trying to find the numbers for transit commutes into downtown Portland, if anyone has those.

I did find San Francisco's 2000 numbers, which makes sense why there is a transit like along Market.
San Francisco 2000 transit numbers.

[zilfondel]

^ I think our density is just too low right now. However, the MAX system in the west side was built to help shape growth. I think a Hawthorne/Powell line from downtown to the new 205 MAX might be viable in about 20 years, much like Vancouver's new Canada Line. Their population is very close to ours, btw.

The problem with the streetcar lines is that they are not designing them for mobility, they are designing them for accessibility - station stops ~3 blocks. People who live farther out will be wanting better mobility options (higher speeds, higher capacity, stay out of congestion) once the roads get really plastered with traffic. And the MAX only operates in certain, limited corridors... I ran across a density map of Portland awhile ago (cant find it anymore) that was a google mashup of census tracts, pop #s, and density #s (clickable), and inner SE, downtown, Pearl, Goose Hollow, and NW were all pretty darned high - 8,000 - 15,000 ppl/sq mi if I recall. Since these are going to increase in the future, we may as well try to make them even more attractive for development and density.

I wonder how much a 6-mile bored subway would cost? $2-3 billion? It would probably only take about 10 minutes to traverse such a short distance, yet would connect with the highest-ridership bus routes and ALL of the MAX lines in the region - you could even transfer to the eastside streetcar and ride it to the Lloyd District! The only caveat I can see is that there really isn't much in the way off office and mixed use in the corridor itself. However, with proper zoning, it could become a proper mixed-use corridor, not just boutiquey retail.


Just for kicks - what do you guys think?

[zilfondel]

Originally Posted by urbanlife

I still think we are too small of a city to need it. I think we would be much better off linking as much of our city back to a above ground rail grid as we can.

The city is a perfect candidate to return back to its streetcar days.

Numbers dont seem to hold up to the calls for a subway line any time soon for the city. I am trying to find the numbers for transit commutes into downtown Portland, if anyone has those.[/URL]

I believe transit commutes are... well, look here on page 11. The study says that 42% of commuters access downtown by Bus & MAX, which is the exact same % as by car. [Portland Business Alliance, 2007]

At the same time, I think streetcars on the eastside, if located in proper urban corridors (Burnside, Sandy, MLK, Hawthorne), could provide excellent local service focused on accessibility. I'm really hopeful they happen in the right places, and the streetcar map has them on it, but local opposition to the most sensible routes just baffles me.

However, the city of Portland is not the city of 100 years ago. Our population is about 10x higher, and encompasses a much larger geographic area. People also expect to be able to travel faster - cross regional mobility is just starting to be addressed (WES commuter rail). Express buses are being cut as well.

However, you have to admit that LRT, especially if its in its own dedicated, grade-separated right of way, would be much, MUCH faster. Even than driving. Which will get people out of their cars.

Originally Posted by MR. Cosmopolitan

I didn't ment tunneling light rail, I ment a subway system that would be just for downtwn Portland; I think were still very far away from that, but I don't know how much really.

You can walk across downtown Portland in 20-30 minutes (N-S). 10 minutes the other way. I'm sure the new MAX will offer sufficient speed and accessibility for downtown itself.

[urbanlife]

Originally Posted by zilfondel

However, the city of Portland is not the city of 100 years ago. Our population is about 10x higher, and encompasses a much larger geographic area. People also expect to be able to travel faster - cross regional mobility is just starting to be addressed (WES commuter rail). Express buses are being cut as well.

I was referring more to the fact that the city still holds its streetcar integrity. You can drive around town and still see how the streetcars ran in this city, unlike most cities that have widened streets and destroyed entire neighborhoods for highways. Sandy, Mississippi, Hawthorne, Belmont, Burnside, they all still hold their streetcar layouts. So it would be very easy for this city to reincorporate them back into the street grid.

Now I do agree, stops would need to be placed a little bit further apart on the eastside to help decrease travel time.

[Joeplayer19]

When will they need the dudes with plastic gloves stuffing people in?

[dkealoha]

Originally Posted by Joeplayer19

When will they need the dudes with plastic gloves stuffing people in?

Like in Tokyo? I googled and found this pic. Not sure who it's from...

[2oh1]

Originally Posted by urbanlife

The city is a perfect candidate to return back to its streetcar days.

AB-SO-LUTE-LY-!!!!

[65MAX]

Originally Posted by zilfondel

Okay, MAX looks pretty crowded...


flickr photo by MarkDM

Good thing we're nowhere near capacity, right? ..... we'll never need to build a subway. We'll just be satisfied with our quaint little 2-car trains on the surface, going barely faster than walking speed, and stopping 14 (FOURTEEN) times from Lloyd Center and Goose Hollow. Yeah, that's true regional transit.

[alexjon]

Better tear it up, since nothing is better than what's there now!

[65MAX]

Originally Posted by zilfondel

Just for kicks - what do you guys think?

I think this is an ideal streetcar route, but not a subway. The downtown MAX subway(s) are a much higher priority to make MAX a truly regional system. For regional service in SE, the (roughly) parallel route from 17th & Powell (branching off of Milwaukie MAX) to Foster to Lents would be great for a new MAX line because of the generous right-of-ways there and the large redevelopable (and underutilized) lots.

[zilfondel]

^ Fair enough, and you're probably right.

[65MAX]

Don't need to tear anything out. The existing surface MAX alignments downtown are IDEAL streetcar routes, and they should be used as streetcar routes. MAX originally had two functions; a regional mass transit system outside of downtown and a local circulator downtown. We have streetcars now that can handle the latter. Now we need to improve the mass transit function. MAX should not act like a streetcar.

[JordanL]

Well, public transit is already cheaper than using a car, but only if you dedicate yourself to bike + public transit.

Getting rid of maintenance + insurance + gasoline costs on a car saved me almost $350/month of which I spent about $75 for my Trimet pass.

Most people just aren't willing to give up the mobility yet. For 90% of all trips, public transit is mobile enough, but the other 10% are generally all of the things people enjoy... for me that was how difficult it would be to get to anywhere in Hillsboro, or to go to Clackamas Town Center for a movie (because they have the best theaters... this will be different once the Green Line opens though).

I don't think people cling to their cars so that they can spend 45 minutes trying to get to a job that they don't like. I think people cling to their cars because the things they do for enjoyment aren't on an easy transit line.

And I think a lot of fun things aren't on an easy transit line, because transit lines raise property values, and thus rent, causing some of the more unique places which can only survive in cheaper neighborhoods to be forced away from such areas.

It isn't a universal rule, but I really think it's the "pleasure activities", and transit to those that keep people in cars.

[PacificNW]

My friends in San Francisco and Seattle just rent a Zip car when they need the use of a care within the city....otherwise they just head to a rental agency if they want to head out of town for an extended stay.

[JordanL]

Originally Posted by 65MAX

Don't need to tear anything out. The existing surface MAX alignments downtown are IDEAL streetcar routes, and they should be used as streetcar routes. MAX originally had two functions; a regional mass transit system outside of downtown and a local circulator downtown. We have streetcars now that can handle the latter. Now we need to improve the mass transit function. MAX should not act like a streetcar.

They need to run streetcar a LOT more frequently if we want it to be a real downtown circulator...

It's usually faster for me to walk from PSU to Powell's.