Salt Lake:Official development news thread

[Orlando]

Originally Posted by Stenar

Sugar House's southern border is I-80, i.e. approximately 2300 South.

I'm not sure if their is an official border. I've always considered the area immediately south of I-80 along Highland Drive to be part of Sugarhouse.

[Stenar]

Originally Posted by Urban_logic

I see your point. Sugar House is light-years ahead of West Jordan in terms of convenience. But remember, West Jordan is decades younger. I'm sure that when Sugar House was first built, it was just a bunch of houses without any convenience stores. Now it has matured.

Actually, years ago when Sugar House was newer it had more convenient, walkable retail than it has now. If you walk around Sugar House neighborhoods, every 2-3 blocks you'll see a building on a corner of a neighborhood that used to be a neighborhood market. Now some of them have been converted into houses, some are art galleries, hair salons, dry cleaners, laundromats, but there are dozens of them.

In a hundred years, the neighborhoods you've pointed to in West Jordan will still be a mess. They're not going to suddenly become walkable when they've been so poorly designed. There are no through streets, you have to walk around long, curved roads to get to a major arterial street. They're not even very well designed for automobiles because they're frustrating as hell to drive through because no roads go THROUGH to anywhere. They curve and end in dead ends and all sorts of messes.

[DMTower]

Originally Posted by Urban_logic

Ok, so this has gotten WAY

Let's try to rap it up.

I see your point. Sugar House is light-years ahead of West Jordan in terms of convenience. But remember, West Jordan is decades younger. I'm sure that when Sugar House was first built, it was just a bunch of houses without any convenience stores. Now it has matured. I bet that this area will too in the decades to come - especially with TRAX comming through. I was trying to compare how similar the areas will become, but I realize I my have confused the point. If you look at any arial of the West Jordan area, you will see tons of open spaces scattered throughout the city. There is a lot of potential to fill these in with stuff - like corner stores and such. Remember, the population for the city of West Jordan was at 68,000 in 2000 - now it's over 100,000. It has grown so rapidly, it hasn't been able to keep up. I have a feeling that over the next few decades, it will begin to infill these empty lots throughout the city. It will follow a similar route of suburbs like Sugar House and mature further down the road.

Here's some good news:



Ok, one last comment to rap up your point, then let's get back to topic

No, Sugarhouse was never just a bunch of houses with no retail to walk to. The original residents of Sugarhouse did not drive to get where they needed to go, they walked. There were mom and pop stores there from the very beginning of residential development. Many people worked in the same neighborhoods they lived. If that were the case with the development today, we'd have a whole lot less pollution to deal with.

[Urban_logic]

Originally Posted by DMTower

No, Sugarhouse was never just a bunch of houses with no retail to walk to. The original residents of Sugarhouse did not drive to get where they needed to go, they walked. There were mom and pop stores there from the very beginning of residential development. Many people worked in the same neighborhoods they lived. If that were the case with the development today, we'd have a whole lot less pollution to deal with.

Actually, both cities began in the 1850's as small farming communities outside of SLC. So the residents of both cities didn't drive to get anywhere - they walked or rode horse and buggie. There were mom and pop stores at the beginings of both cities, but West Jordan unfortunately lost most of them

So, you're right, Sugar House didn't start out as a bunch of houses - it started out as a bunch of farms (which had houses) with a small town center. So did West Jordan. In fact, most cities in the valley started out this way. And they were all independent from SLC (Sugar House was considered outside of SLC).

[Zionide]

Originally Posted by Urban_logic

I'm sure that when Sugar House was first built, it was just a bunch of houses without any convenience stores.

Sorry, but no. When Sugar House was first built, corner markets, butchers, laundries, etc. were there at the same time as the houses---much like the Avenues. Both sides of my family owned such businesses Sugar House in the late 19th century.

Originally Posted by Urban_logic

If you look at any arial of the West Jordan area, you will see tons of open spaces scattered throughout the city. There is a lot of potential to fill these in with stuff - like corner stores and such.

Lots of potential, but it's not going to happen. Do you seriously think they're going to fill these areas with corner stores? In an area where Jordan Landing thrives? It'll be "beige," chain, big-box, mega-parking-lot behemoths; or nothing commercial at all.

Look at the fully developed areas of WJ, like the area between 6200 South and 7000 South and Redwood Road and 3200 West. Houses, houses, houses, schools, churches, huge parking lots, ugly chain stores. I lived there 20 years and couldn't walk anywhere functional; walking was leisurely only.

[Comrade]

Exactly right, guys.

SugarHouse was at one point more walkable than it is today. In fact, most of Salt Lake was more walkable than it is today.

There is an area just down the road from me on the corner of Highland Drive and 2700 South that has a few small retail shops. It's been there for years and is probably as old as the neighborhood itself.

PHOTO HERE

Now I don't know when that was built, but it had to have been in the 40s and 50s, around the time this neighborhood began its growth spurt.

Of course, once you get beyond I-80, it's all completely retail and commercial up until you get to about 1930 East. That's a long stretch of retail and it didn't just pop up recently.

[Zionide]

Originally Posted by Urban_logic

Actually, both cities began in the 1850's as small farming communities outside of SLC. So the residents of both cities didn't drive to get anywhere - they walked or rode horse and buggie. There were mom and pop stores at the beginings of both cities, but West Jordan unfortunately lost most of them

Not to be rude, but I think you're misinformed about the beginnings of both areas.

In the 1850s, Sugar House was not a farming community. Mormons & Gentiles: A History of Salt Lake City by Thomas Alexander and James Allen says by the late 1850s Sugar House was "already known for its fine shopping."

And WJ was a farming community, but not "outside of SLC." It was a distant community 17 miles away---and the early 20th century Polk city directories for the southwest valley (i.e. unincorporated Salt Lake County like future WJ, SJ, Tville, etc.) reference very few commercial entities out there. As you say, it was all farmland. Farmers traveled to Midvale or Murray back then for their commercial needs; those towns had the nearest mom-and-pop stores, and have the historic architecture to prove it.

[Urban_logic]

Originally Posted by Zionide

Lots of potential, but it's not going to happen. Do you seriously think they're going to fill these areas with corner stores? In an area where Jordan Landing thrives? It'll be "beige," chain, big-box, mega-parking-lot behemoths; or nothing commercial at all.

Look at the fully developed areas of WJ, like the area between 6200 South and 7000 South and Redwood Road and 3200 West. Houses, houses, houses, schools, churches, huge parking lots, ugly chain stores. I lived there 20 years and couldn't walk anywhere functional; walking was leisurely only.

But it is happening!! The city is redeveloping the entire Redwood corridor from about 80th South up to 76th South as a walkable TOD. I'm thinking that there will be a lot of TOD's and redevelopment sites along the TRAX route. According to the city's website, it is going to be redeveloping the big shopping center just north west of 70th South and Redwood where the older Target is eventually. It has 5 redevlopment areas listed.

[Zionide]

Originally Posted by Comrade Reynolds

There is an area just down the road from me on the corner of Highland Drive and 2700 South that has a few small retail shops. It's been there for years and is probably as old as the neighborhood itself.

Now I don't know when that was built, but it had to have been in the 40s and 50s, around the time this neighborhood began its growth spurt.

Yep, Backyard Birds' building was built in 1956. But the building the Old Dutch Store occupies was built in 1920, and its neighbor (I forget what's there next to Old Dutch now) dates to 1915.

[Comrade]

SugarHouse was always apart of Salt Lake City, at least anything that deals with the commercial and developmental aspect of the area.

It was never an independent city and was always governed by Salt Lake.

[Urban_logic]

Originally Posted by Zionide

Farmers traveled to Midvale or Murray back then for their commercial needs; those towns had the nearest mom-and-pop stores, and have the historic architecture to prove it.

Gardner Villege has lots of old shops (I think there were linnen shops, candy shops, etc.) I will admit that I am not the most informed on the beginnings of both towns, but I am sure Sugar House wasn't just settled to make "fine shops". It had to begin from somewhere - stores just don't pop up out of the ground. People had to establish their farms and houses before worrying about building shops. As for WJ, I do know that there are historic shops at what is now called Gardner Villege. Sugar House was probably more accessable from SLC, so it developed quicker with more "fine shops", but WJ still had some shops - probably more daily-needs type shops rather than "fine shops".

[urbanboy]

Sugar House was the end of the trolly line. Also, the Salt Lake County Jail was located in sugarhouse park. I think even before that Sugar House was a lodging settlement for travelers arriving in the valley via Parley's Canyon, which was a toll road named after the man who blasted the canyon with dynamite to make it passable. Before the Trans-Continental Railroad was completed, most trekkers and settlers entered the valley this way. Sugar House would have been a convenient place to stop.

[Zionide]

Originally Posted by urbanboy

I think even before that Sugar House was a lodging settlement for travelers arriving in the valley via Parley's Canyon, which was a toll road named after the man who blasted the canyon with dynamite to make it passable. Before the Trans-Continental Railroad was completed, most trekkers and settlers entered the valley this way. Sugar House would have been a convenient place to stop.

That's interesting; I've never heard that about Sugar House, but it makes sense with Parley's just to the east.

I know that the new settlers who came via Emigration Canyon settled in the tent city on what was then Emigration Square: today's Washington Square w/ the City & County Building.

[TANGELD_SLC]

Sugar Beets were also processed in Sugarhouse... Wow, who'd a thunked it?

[MetroFanatic]

I sort of have mixed feelings when it comes to Sugar House. Part of me likes the fact that everything is so close together, but, growing up in the West Jordan, the other part of me wishes there was more parking.

There is nothing I dislike more than trying to parallel park with a bunch of angry people behind you, or, going behind a shop to find out the parking is reserved for the employees only.

I like the fact that West Jordan is developing these walkable areas, but I like it even more that they are integrating both walkable areas with some wider roads just outside of them.

[Justnslcsugarhood.]

I read some where that sugar house bought a lot of equipment for the processing of sugar out of sugar beets but the equipment never showed up so they began to create Molasses instead.
Also it talked about why they still stuck with sugarhouse even though they never made sugar....
Molasseshouse vs Sugarhouse....MHhmmm what would you guys choose?
also how old is that furniture store there?

[Justnslcsugarhood.]

Originally Posted by MetroFanatic

I sort of have mixed feelings when it comes to Sugar House. Part of me likes the fact that everything is so close together, but, growing up in the West Jordan, the other part of me wishes there was more parking.

There is nothing I dislike more than trying to parallel park with a bunch of angry people behind you, or, going behind a shop to find out the parking is reserved for the employees only.

I like the fact that West Jordan is developing these walkable areas, but I like it even more that they are integrating both walkable areas with some wider roads just outside of them.

I think wider roads impede how easy it is to walk in a neighborhood because it's so ridiculous to try and walk across six lanes of traffic anywhere even downtown on seventh east.

Did you ever use transit to get to sugarhouse?

[SLC Projects]

Originally Posted by Urban_logic

Old downtown West Jordan is planned to be reconstructed as a transit-oriented development and called "Briarwood". The plans call for an expanded Main Park, a history museum, conversion of the Sugar Factory into a playhouse, an indoor recreation center, a senior center, and a large courthouse to serve the Utah State Third District. The second phase calls for the demolition of a dilapidated commercial area, to be replaced by six-story buildings housing a performing arts center, a large library, a hotel, an education center, a conference center, retail and office space, a trail linking to Gardner Village and the Jordan River trail, and a cultural pavilion to house the planned light rail station.

This "Briarwood" project sounds really cool and it's right in my neighborhood. I think the "dilapidated commercial area" that quote was referring to is the near empty strip mall on redwood road and 7800 South. ( Where the old D.I used to be. ) If that's the case then this is great news since I dislike that strip mall and I always thought those buildings should get torn down and replace it with some kind of a dense mix-use project since there will soon be a trax line and station in this area.

[Comrade]

Originally Posted by MetroFanatic

I sort of have mixed feelings when it comes to Sugar House. Part of me likes the fact that everything is so close together, but, growing up in the West Jordan, the other part of me wishes there was more parking.

There is nothing I dislike more than trying to parallel park with a bunch of angry people behind you, or, going behind a shop to find out the parking is reserved for the employees only.

I like the fact that West Jordan is developing these walkable areas, but I like it even more that they are integrating both walkable areas with some wider roads just outside of them.

Meh, I've never had issues with parking in SugarHouse and generally if I do drive, I park in the Commons area and walk from there up and down 2100 South and Highland.

That's something you really can't do in West Jordan. Sure, you could try and walk Jordan Landing, but c'mon, everything is so spread out in that shopping complex that you're not going to walk from one area to the next.

That's what I love about SugarHouse. It isn't built for the car and shouldn't be built for the car. Parking only encourages driving from Point A to Point B.

Which is why Jordan Landing, in my opinion, failed. It failed because it isn't about walking...



You can't walk that.

[SLC Projects]

Originally Posted by Comrade Reynolds

You can't walk that.

Sure you could. It would just take forever to get from one end to the other. It would be a great work out.