Central Waterfront District | Waterfront Station - CRAB Park

[NetMapel]

Will the port's only street be able to handle the traffic generated by potential soccer game attendees ? That's my only concern, which would be how they plan to integrate the stadium in this tightly packed rail yard.

[metroXpress]

Thanks for moving it to here, jlousa!

Took me quite a while to get all those on but I couldn't find
this thread. I new it was here somewhere...anyways, thank you once again.

[djmk]

looks good

it will be nice to open up that area a bit. it will be a great asset to the city to have that area beautified. right now, it's a no-go zone. i like the extension of the CBD plus the seawall extension. plus that glazed roof over the concourse could be awesome!

i just pray the stadium is not dead

[metroXpress]

^ Attend the open house for more info!!


Thursday March 5, 3pm - 7pm at Waterfront Station
Saturday, March 7, 10am - 2pm at Central Public Library Atrium

[fever]

I had some concerns about these plans when they were first shown, but looking at them again I think they did a really good job.

I don't really like how the Canada line connection goes around behind the Expo line escalator. I wonder if it's possible for that to go through the main building at the concourse level, one level below the current main hall level (like with the retail at the back of the main building).

http://vancouver.ca/commsvcs/currentplanning/whitecaps/pdf/Board6_Concourse%20sm.pdf

I also wonder if it's possible to replace the stairs between the main hall and concourse with a ramp.

[officedweller]

Originally Posted by fever

I don't really like how the Canada line connection goes around behind the Expo line escalator. I wonder if it's possible for that to go through the main building at the concourse level, one level below the current main hall level (like with the retail at the back of the main building).

I also wonder if it's possible to replace the stairs between the main hall and concourse with a ramp.

The primary purpose is probably for transferring passengers - so the "behind" location is probably the most direct from the concourse generally (i.e. WCE passengers wouldn't have to "turn around" although SkyTrain passengers would). It also separates transferring passengers from those headed to the street instead of funnelling them through one area to the CP Station's main hall.

The thing I find odd is that right now, the passage from the CP main hall to the Seabus has no stairs - but the new concourse will require you to walk down a flight of stairs from the CP main hall to the concourse (presumably street level will be established lower at the back of the CP station than in front of it?) i.e. if the main pedestrain flow in through the CP hall, shouldn't it be one level and maybe the exits to the side streets could use the stairs?

EDIT: The councourse probably has to be lower so the transit street can run over top of the Seabus passageway.

Other items of note:
Note how the "future platform" is more SkyTrain length rather than WCE length...
Also the passenger ferries note "international" and "domestic" docks.

[fever]

I mean using the level below the main hall in the CP building, like this:


By bob1324987134290 at 2009-02-24

Regional trains don't need to be very long because they're typically more frequent than commuter systems. They're sort of half way between commuter and metro in that sense.

[officedweller]

The concourse doesn't look like it would be a full level below the CP main hall by the looks of this pic by DennisTT on Flickr that shows the elevations - not sure how much lower the concourse could be than the existing level:


http://www.flickr.com/photos/dennistt/2282444755/in/set-72157603960932397/

A ramp from the concourse to the (current) Canada Line passage would probably require removal of a large area of CP main hall flooring for head room and prevent access to the restored west street entrance of the CP Station. Then again looking at the basement of the CP Station - there does appear to be two levels there (all depends on what elevation the concourse floor is at).

Can this fit in the space above?



I wonder why they didn't keep the concourse at street level and have a set of escalators down to the Seabus passage (rather than having the whole concourse at Seabus passage elevation)?
If the concourse were at street level then passengers headed to WCE and Skytrain wouldn't have to use two sets of stairs/escalators - they'd just use one set from the concourse to the platforms - as it is configured in the renderings/plans, they would have to take one set from the street/CP main hall to the concourse and a second set from the concourse to the platform. Double the escalators, double the mechanical problems and bottlenecks (and more difficult handicapped access).

[fever]

I actually like how they split it up. It makes the CP building look bigger. And it means that the escalators up from the platform aren't so long. They can put them closer together, and people might be more inclined to walk up the shorter distance.

The west entrance is at the main hall level. Concourse level appears to be half way between the main hall level and the floor below, maybe a bit closer to the floor below. There doesn't appear to be any issue with clearance between skytrain, which is two floors below the main hall level, and the floor below the main hall level.

[SpongeG]

you can get to the Canada line from the main building without going behind the expo line

[Login650]

Hi all,

As the planning analyst on this project, thought it would be helpful if I answered a few questions that have come up.

1) Please note that the information on the website currently (and the info quoted in this thread) is from the 2008 open houses. The 2009 open house material will go up in a few days.

2) the planning work going on will not create a plan for the area - the concept plans shown in 2008 and next week are example plans to illustrate how the area could build out while meeting the directions set out in the report that will go to Council (which is currrently in draft form). So - things like exact platform lengths, concourse floor level height, exact size/shape of the concourse, etc have not been determined - that will happen when the land owners decide to move forward with development.

3) there is indeed space for the concourse floor to be down from the elevation of the Waterfront Station floor. Advantages for having it at that elevation are that it allows a direct connection to the seabus walkway (which goes under the street), and it shortens escalator lengths down to the various rail platforms. The concourse level can also be at the same height as the Waterfront Station building, that just creates some awkward interfaces with the surrounding streets which are all at slightly different elevations - but there is nothing in the City's draft report which prevents this. We just had to pick one to illustrate and picked the lower level concept.

4) one thing to remember is that Waterfront Station is a heritage building so any plans have to be very careful in how they treat that building.

5) This report and the consultation is just for the Hub. The vision for the Hub area does anticipate significant development to the east (whether that is a stadium or something else).

6) TransLink has been working on their own study of the Waterfront Station area. The City and TransLink have been working together on this project. TransLink staff will be at this round of consultation to address the transit issues, study findings.

7) The City is keen to keep parking to a minimum on this site given the fantastic transit options, but the development still has to be viable which means some parking is required. Exactly how much parking hasn't been determined.

9) We've definitely given cycling a lot of thought and think it's very important to accommodate cycling through the area as well as with end-of-trip facilities, but since we aren't designing the transit concourse/hub (not our place) or doing detailed street design (not at that stage), it may not look like we've thought about it.

Hope that's helpful! None of my comments above are meant to shut down discussions, just to inform.

Any local people who can make it out to the open houses, we'd love to hear your thoughts on the new material.

[officedweller]

Thanks for the information!

Personally, if the concourse is depressed (for variation, visual effect or allignment in elevation with side streets), I would prefer to see it depressed only a couple of steps, so that handicapped access could be easily accommodated by short ramps, rather than the very awkward half-flight elevators that you see a lot of nowadays that present visual barriers to a space. That would also reduce maintenance costs.
I don't see a problem with having escalators and elevator down to access the Seabus walkway, as the new walkway will appear like an underground passageway (since it will be lined with shops) - it would be akin to entering a subway station corridor from the concourse (i.e. treated the same as the access points to Canada Line or SkyTrain or Westcoast Express, without preferential treatment).

i.e. Please avoid a scheme that contains the visual clutter (of overhead walkways) that exists in the Sinclair Centre atrium or the City Square atrium - a clean design would also work better for visibility of signage and way-finding purposes.

[Gordon]

Does anyone know where the passageway connecting Canada Lines Waterfront Station and the current Waterfront Station enters the station's lobby because there is no sinage in 'The Station' mentioning a connection to the Canad Line?

[Pinion]

Originally Posted by Gordon

Does anyone know where the passageway connecting Canada Lines Waterfront Station and the current Taterfront Station enters the station's lobby because there is no sinage in 'The Station' mentioning a connection to the Canad Line?

There will be a passageway in the southwest corner of the main area in Waterfront station.

mmmm taterfront

[officedweller]

Yeah, last time I walked through the Canada Line signage wasn't as prominent as signage for an office or centre that was also opening up in the area.
Here's one of Tafryn's pics from June 2008 (the stairs to the right of the pic lead up to the Granville Square plaza):

[David]

great to hear from someone involved in the project! thanks for the info

that blank construction wall is now covered with signage that makes it clear that it is a future connection to Canada Line

[Locked In]

Originally Posted by Login650

5) This report and the consultation is just for the Hub. The vision for the Hub area does anticipate significant development to the east (whether that is a stadium or something else).

Thanks for all the information Login650!
Your above comment left me wondering - assuming the stadium doesn't go ahead, what type of significant development is anticipated to the east of the proposed waterfront hub? Would this involve extending the street grid and developing above the rail yards/parking lots etc. to the north?
I'd be interested to hear if anyone knows whether the City (or the Ports) has a long term vision for that area (that envisions it as something more than rail yards/parking lots one day). Thanks!

[David]

I remember the musings about a Fisherman's Wharf type area a few years ago... i would not at all be surprised if something like that went through if the stadium did not.

[red-paladin]

These plans are really excellent plans. I know that with all the potential street elevations and vertical passages this could be tricky to pull off, but I think it would be great to extend the main station hall to the north and provide all the down escalators at that level. I would hope they would have a lower level passage from the canada line down an escalator and north and up again to the expo line platform, as that would help with direct transfers.

[leftside]

Originally Posted by David

I remember the musings about a Fisherman's Wharf type area a few years ago...

That would be fantastic!