Ottawa Rapid Transit Network developments

[Franky]

Originally Posted by waterloowarrior

great posts, Richard

Open House
Thursday, February 26, 2009
5:30 to 8:30 p.m.,
Presentation at 7 p.m.
City Hall, Jean Piggott Hall
110 Laurier Avenue West

Downtown Ottawa Transit Tunnel: Tunney’s Pasture to Blair Station via a Downtown LRT Tunnel
Material presented at the open house will include:

• Identified alignments of the above and below ground routes
• The location, design and spacing of stations
• How the tunnel study project links into other rapid transit expansion projects
• The expansion of the study’s scope to include a westward extension from Bayview to Tunney’s Pasture and an eastward extension from the Train Station to Blair

Identifying a transit solution from the core out, with the downtown tunnel as a key feature, will ease congestion in Ottawa and offer riders faster, more reliable transit service throughout the city.

We want to hear from you!
The tunnel study is the first step in developing a world-class transit system that starts with a trip down an escalator. The tunnel will ultimately enhance how quickly and efficiently we move around Ottawa for generations. This is a groundbreaking project for Ottawa that will shape the city for generations to come and the City wants to hear from you.

All elements of this city-building project require careful consideration in order to find the best possible solutions.
For that reason, we are looking for your input in developing the design of the Tunnel project.

• Where do you think the stations should be and what should they look like?
• How should the stations integrate into the surrounding area?
• What design features - such as public art - are important to you?

Consultation venues will be offered throughout the duration of the Tunnel study. Outreach activities will include public consultations, agency and interest group meetings, as well as open houses and information will continue to be updated on ottawa.ca.

The study team will be available at the open house to discuss the study findings to date.
Project Contact:
Dennis Gratton, MCIP, RPP
Senior Project Manager
Infrastructure Services and Community Sustainability
City of Ottawa
110 Laurier Avenue West, 4th Floor
Ottawa, ON K1P 1J1
E-mail: mailto[email protected]

The Project Environmental Assessment will be initiated after completion of the Project Planning Phase. This will consist of a coordinated EA that meets the requirements of the new “Transit Project Assessment Process” (Ontario Regulation 231/08) under the Ontario Environmental Assessment Act (OEAA) and the requirements of the Canadian Environmental Assessment Act (CEAA).

I can't find this on the city's website. Is it still on? Thanks.

[Richard Eade]

http://ottawa.ca/residents/public_consult/transit_tunnel/getinvolved_en.html

[Franky]

Originally Posted by Richard Eade

http://ottawa.ca/residents/public_consult/transit_tunnel/getinvolved_en.html

Thanks.

[Richard Eade]

I'm late posting this, but as of last Wednesday, the two hybrid buses have been out in revenue service. Keep an eye out for the 5000s; they are like camels with two humps - one in the front for A/C, and one in the rear for batteries. You might not notice a lot of difference between them and ordinary buses, but they don't rev as much when starting from a stop. The engines still run continuously, but the revs don't vary as widely.

I beleive that OC Transpo is close to getting the approval to get the double deckers out as well. There was an issue with "collision avoidance systems", apparently, which needed to be tested/modified for certification in Ontario, as I understand it.

[Franky]

Originally Posted by Richard Eade

I'm late posting this, but as of last Wednesday, the two hybrid buses have been out in revenue service. Keep an eye out for the 5000s; they are like camels with two humps - one in the front for A/C, and one in the rear for batteries. You might not notice a lot of difference between them and ordinary buses, but they don't rev as much when starting from a stop. The engines still run continuously, but the revs don't vary as widely.

I beleive that OC Transpo is close to getting the approval to get the double deckers out as well. There was an issue with "collision avoidance systems", apparently, which needed to be tested/modified for certification in Ontario, as I understand it.

I can't wait to try them, but they won;t likely be used in my neck of the woods. Wonder why they rev at idle, I tried a hybrid toyota and it's dead quiet when stopped - weird. Maybe future models will be better.

[Aylmer]

Originally Posted by Franky

I can't wait to try them, but they won;t likely be used in my neck of the woods. Wonder why they rev at idle, I tried a hybrid toyota and it's dead quiet when stopped - weird. Maybe future models will be better.

I've get one and Love the silence!

[Rathgrith]

Originally Posted by AylmerOptimist

I've get one and Love the silence!

I'm sure the blind pedestrians crossing the street love it too!

[MalcolmTucker]

Originally Posted by Franky

I can't wait to try them, but they won;t likely be used in my neck of the woods. Wonder why they rev at idle, I tried a hybrid toyota and it's dead quiet when stopped - weird. Maybe future models will be better.

Hybrid buses have a much larger volume to cool or heat, and the engines & batteries are not scaled up proportionally to that larger volume. If you turned off the climate control and interior lights they would likely be able to be silent at idle and breaking.

Heating is the reason hybrids were actually worse fuel guzzlers than normal buses in the Winnipeg pilot project. I suspect heating and cooling are the reasons the Toronto buses are under preforming their fuel savings specs.

Not all technology can be directly scaled up and down with similar results.

It also possible these are mild hybrids, not full hybrids. Mild hybrids have main power coming from the gas engine, with assistance for acceleration coming from an electric assist, with that energy being captured back during normal breaking. (that would explain the lack of revs). It is also possible that the engine for these buses does not have a fast enough start up time to respond when needed to move, and the electric engine isn't strong enough to cut it for even 10 seconds of movement before the gas engine cuts in.

[Franky]

Originally Posted by Rathgrith

I'm sure the blind pedestrians crossing the street love it too!

Not much danger from a stopped vehicle. Buses should be able to shut off engines at stops and time-points at least.

You're not going to see the sense in this, but heating should be done with a separate efficient burner when very cold and if/when the a/c system can't run as a heat-pump. Engines are designed to exhaust heat out the tailpipe whereas a heater is designed to use most of the heat.

Toronto buses use heavier lead-acid batteries which probably don't take regenerative charging well either (like when going down hills).

Mild hybrid would explain it.

[Richard Eade]

I'm not sure of your definition of "mild hybrid", but these buses run a parallel system using a system of 'sun and planet' gears to determine the ratio of power between the diesel engine and the electric motor. This is similar to the Toyota Prius setup.

For these buses, at low speed (up to about 12Km under light acceleration), the motor does most of the work, while at highway speed, it is almost exclusively the engine doing the work.

The HVAC system is run electricly, but the heat comes from the engine since it is running any way. Unfortunately several required peripherals are run off the engine so if hydraulic pressure for steering or vacumn for brakes is desired, the engine must continue to turn.

Interestingly, in the "Hush Mode" developed for the Seattle Tunnel, as I understand it, the engine can be completely shut down for short periods of time. In this case, the electric motor which moves the bus is also used to turn the engine to keep the peripherals spinning. Effectively, the fuel is just shut down and the engine is spun from its drive shaft. It should be noted, though, that the Seattle buses do run the engine (at idle speed) between tunnel stops.

I think that you will find that the bus drivers are not taught how to drive the hybrids and that is the root of most of the excessive fuel usage. Under demand for heavy acceleration (i.e., typical 'petal to the metal' starts), both the electric motor AND the diesel engine are fully used. Also, these transmissions are infinitely variable which means that, depending on the accelerator position, the effective gearing ratio can vary widely. A heavy foot can effectively drive in 'first gear' all the time.

I also own a Prius and when I drive it, I get about 4.2-4.5 L/100Km. When my sister-in-law drives it, she likes the 'snappy' instant response feel and thus averages about 7.8-8.5 L/100Km. Despite the seller's claim that "there is no difference" driving a hybrid, there is if you want it to be efficient.

[Aylmer]

Originally Posted by Rathgrith

I'm sure the blind pedestrians crossing the street love it too!

They have not found the bodies yet.



No, but seriously, only the invisible blind people that cross busy streets alone get hit.

[Franky]

Originally Posted by Richard Eade

I'm not sure of your definition of "mild hybrid", but these buses run a parallel system using a system of 'sun and planet' gears to determine the ratio of power between the diesel engine and the electric motor. This is similar to the Toyota Prius setup.

In my mind, it's not about the configuration (exactly), it's about the size of the electric motor and battery. On cars, a small kW motor is used to do some regenerative braking, assist the engine (which smooths out shifting) and start up the engine quietly by spinning it up to rev speed (as I understand it). I would say mild hybrids cannot drive on the electric motor alone.

The chevy silverado hybrid can use the 14 kW motor as a generator (sucks gas like you would not believe) and only delivers a 120v, 20amp plug.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mild_hybrid

[ikerrin]

I am not sure if there has been any discussion about this, since its present tense now, but I thought I would just point out that OC Transpo has two major routes added to their system which are using Wellington and Queen.

Has anyone ridden the 12 and the 9 routes. I saw the 12 when the strike was over and thought that I was just reading a mistake on the 2 route sign on the bus front, but no, its seems like a major new route.

This strikes me as an great idea since there will be way more options now for getting around the main city inside the Greenbelt and increased bus times along Montreal for getting downtown. I would love to see more routes like these. They seem like they could be preludes to LRT. After-all, if you have jam-packed buses running every few minutes along Montreal road and along Carling, an LRT is the next step to increase system capacity.

Thoughts?

[p_xavier]

Originally Posted by ikerrin

I am not sure if there has been any discussion about this, since its present tense now, but I thought I would just point out that OC Transpo has two major routes added to their system which are using Wellington and Queen.


Thoughts?

Not new routes, split routes. The 3 and 2 have been split in half downtown.

[ikerrin]

Originally Posted by d_jeffrey

Not new routes, split routes. The 3 and 2 have been split in half downtown.

Thanks! How is that a good thing? I wonder why they did it?

[Richard Eade]

Originally Posted by ikerrin

Thanks! How is that a good thing? I wonder why they did it?

The theory being followed is that the very long bus routes would be chronically off schedule because of traffic delays. By splitting the routes, only one half would be affected by any delay. It is hoped that the other half could keep on schedule.

Thus, the #3 became the #3 and #9, and the #2 became the #2 and #12. Now there are twice as many of these buses passing in front of the Rideau Centre.

[p_xavier]

Originally Posted by Richard Eade

The theory being followed is that the very long bus routes would be chronically off schedule because of traffic delays. By splitting the routes, only one half would be affected by any delay. It is hoped that the other half could keep on schedule.

Thus, the #3 became the #3 and #9, and the #2 became the #2 and #12. Now there are twice as many of these buses passing in front of the Rideau Centre.

Yes, that's exactly why, and more bused idling in the area.

[lrt's friend]

I am listening to the latest reports about the interprovincial transit study and I just get this sinking feeling. There are those now advocating an interprovincial rail loop that will force all Gatineau transit riders to transfer on the last leg of their journey. I really don't know how this is supposed to work in conjunction with Ottawa's current LRT plans. We have already been told that the tunnel cannot handle traffic from both sides of the river. Will this be compatible with Gatineau's present rapid transit plans? Will it really encourage transit ridership?

I get really concerned that affordable transit plans will get delayed or shelved entirely in the name of developing a 'better' plan with a much higher price tag, which may never get funded.

[MalcolmTucker]

The study said a bus tunnel couldn't handle traffic from both sides of the river, nothing about an LRT tunnel having the same problem.

If you need more than 30,000 p/d/h capacity in the end you can buy a different trainset that uses the entire platform. Then your up to 36k p/d/h minimum, likely higher.

It would be pretty crazy for a first line to reach that limit as it is designed now. Economics tells us the peak would naturally spread to allow for the lower through put. Plus the Gatineau trains, as long as you made them infrequent enough so they actually used the whole platform length to get the capacity they needed would use relatively little of the total capacity.

In the end, Ottawa will be forced to either build a second line, or put in automatic train control to get more capacity, but neither of those things are bad.

[Justin10000]

Originally Posted by Richard Eade

I'm late posting this, but as of last Wednesday, the two hybrid buses have been out in revenue service. Keep an eye out for the 5000s; they are like camels with two humps - one in the front for A/C, and one in the rear for batteries. You might not notice a lot of difference between them and ordinary buses, but they don't rev as much when starting from a stop. The engines still run continuously, but the revs don't vary as widely.

You have it reversed. The front box is the Batteries, and the rear is the AC.

From my dailly experience on the TTC hybrids, the exterior noise is slightly lower than a regular bus.