Salt Lake:Official development news thread

[Urban_logic]

Originally Posted by urbanboy

Let's compare (all maps are the same scale):

Salt Lake City






[/img]

Exactly! On the top, you have 9th South, 13th South, 17th South, and 21st South in SLC (all 4 blocks apart). On the bottom, you have Redwood Rd. (about 17th West), then 22nd, then 27th, then 32nd, then Bangetter (about 37th West) in South Jordan - that's 5 blocks apart. They are almost the same size in these areas. The only problem I see is that a lot of the roads on the bottom are not the thick yellow like on the top (because they haven't been expanded yet to 4-lane roads, but can be). You can still see where all the roads I just listed are, some of them are just drawn as small black lines. I think you are looking from Redwood to 27th (10 blocks). Note that there is a through street in between (22nd West). Same with from 27th to Bangetter (10 blocks) - but 32nd West is a through street in between that can be expanded. That means these blocks are 5 blocks apart, compared to 4 blocks. that is a difference of 1/7th of a mile (about 1 or 2 house properties long). So this big block grid is roughly the same throughout the valley (except in down town).

Here I have drawn in my point:





You are missing my point. My point is that the whole valley is built on a large grid - but down town inserts more streets to make smaller blocks. The Jordan urban core's street grid hasn't been built yet - it will probibly follow a similar block scale to down town SLC. The small block down town SLC grid transitions into the big block grid of the valley. The Jordan core will too.

I think we have gone full circle on this topic and can stop now

[urbanboy]

Yes, but you also have West Temple, Main Street, State Street, 200 East, 300 East, 400 East, 500 East, 700 East, 800 East, 900 East, and so on. Most people are headed to and from the City which is a north-south direction of travel, hence the many north-south through streets. Yes there are people who travel east and west too, but not as many.

All the interconnected streets disperse the traffic, so there is no need to widen the roads, which is wonderful for pedestrians.

[Urban_logic]

Originally Posted by urbanboy

Yes, but you also have West Temple, Main Street, State Street, 200 East, 300 East, 400 East, 500 East, 700 East, 800 East, 900 East, and so on. Most people are headed to and from the City which is a north-south direction of travel, hence the many north-south through streets. Yes there are people who travel east and west too, but not as many.

All the interconnected streets disperse the traffic, so there is no need to widen the roads, which is wonderful for pedestrians.

2nd, 3rd, 4th, and 5th East are all neighborhood roads most likely with 4-way stops and speeds of 20-25 mph (not exactly through streets). 22nd and 32nd West may be little black lines on the map like 2nd, 3rd, etc, but they are not neighborhood streets - they have 3 lanes (1 each way and a center turn lane) and only stop at traffic lights with a speed of 35-40 mph. The thickness of the line on the map represents the traffic flow - so that doesn't mean that streets with the same line are the same type of street. Also notice that the South Jordan map has a lot of neighborhood roads that haven't been built yet within the blocks because the empty fields haven't been developed yet. When they are developed, they will look more like those on the SLC map. I am only talking about main roads here (painted lines, stops only at traffic lights, 35+ speed limit). The whole valley is very similar in this regard.

My point is that the whole valley is built on a large grid - but down town inserts more streets to make smaller blocks. The Jordan urban core's street grid hasn't been built yet - it will probibly follow a similar block scale to down town SLC. The small block down town SLC grid transitions into the big block grid of the valley. The Jordan core will too.

[urbanboy]

These maps are the same scale:





There are definitely opportunities, however, developers who develop the undeveloped plots of land will not want to connect the streets when they can make cul-de-sacs and squeeze more houses into their development. The city should do all it can to connect the streets, for this will only improve the situation!

In Salt Lake, drivers drive about the same speed on these "neighborhood streets" that they do on 9th east. These narrow streets are also better for pedestrians, and are multi modal because of it.

[scottharding]

The new sugarhouse development is terrific. I know it's been said already, but I echo the praise fo the developer. I'm very excited about it. Has there been a groundbreaking scheduled yet?

[SLC Projects]

Originally Posted by T-Mac

[B][SIZE="6"]

That hotel design looks awesome. It's different. But in a good way.

[Urban_logic]

Originally Posted by Stenar

Daybreak is trendy right now and popular as new developments go, but I don't think anything can beat the prestige of the Harvard/Yale area in SLC. I lived on the periphery of Harvard/Yale while in college in arguably what must have been the ugliest house on the street, but every single time we were out front in the yard, people would drive by and ask if our house was for sale or if we knew anyone on the street who wanted to sell their house, because people really want to live in that area.

Come on, you can't say that isn't classy and just a fad that people will soon loathe! It's got that classic, country cottage look to it. I don't see this style going out anytime soon - even if people stop building these kinds of houses, I'm sure they will become vintage and classic.

I found some pics of some of the projects planned/under construction in Daybreak that look very east side-ish.





Look, Urbanboy, its walkable!!

I was just looking on the site's master plan and just learned things I didn't know before! There will be a town center with mid-rise and even small high-rise buildings by the Mountain View Corridor, a village with mid-rise buildings and street-level shops, a mixed-use center around the Daybreak South TRAX Station, and little housing "villages" with condos, apartments, and houses. It look beautiful! I can't wait until it's done! When looking at this map as opposed to driving through it, I now realize that it's not even half way done yet - it's impressive enough as it is!

http://www.daybreakutah.com/map.html

You are right, east-side neighborhoods do have that historic charm. If you have the time and the money to fix up an old house on the east side and really make it nice, then go for it! The houses I've been in over there are usually drafty with leeky roofs and squeeky floor-boards. I often hear complaints about mice and turmites. I guess the best route would be to rip out the old, decaying parts (like rotting wood beams, floors, leeky roofs, etc.) Then, when you remodel it, make sure to use materials that make it look new, but still retain the old, historic look (only it will have energy star ratings and be fully up to earthquake code). Then you've got a house that totally kicks butt!! I don't have the time, money, or patience for that, but if you do, that's totally cool! Then you also get that feeling of pride and accomplishment when you stand back and look at the house that you modernized!

[Urban_logic]

Originally Posted by SLC Projects

That hotel design looks awesome. It's different. But in a good way.

Wow! Now that's a fancy hotel!! Go Sugar House!!

Why couldn't Hyatt make their down town hotel by the Gateway more like this one?? Instead of the bland, cereal box that they are building...

Does anyone know what hotel will be here? Maybe a Marriott?

[cololi]

UL: you are missing a key point with your maps. The local streets connect to a mjor street in very few places, which forces cars to use fewer access points to get to and from their neighborhoods. The major streets are there, but honestly, no one in the southwest part of the county want that. when I worked out there every time we tried to connect streets, the neighborhoods came unglued.

You cannot compare Daybreak with harvard yale. I live in HY, and there are no termite problems, no rotting wood, and no more leaking roofs than you find in other homes that are 80-100 year old. I also have family that lives in Daybreak. They are trying to move back to the HY area becasue of how far away from everything daybreak is. There finish work is already falling apart and their utility bills are about 4 times mine, even though their house is only 2x as big. But you can take your "jordans" and stay there. Jordan Commons is less than 10 years old and look how crappy it is. It throws out every best planning practice and is stuck in 1980's development pattern. No thank you.

And don't count on any of Kennecotts planned developments happening. The entire west bench development is off the drawing board with no momentum to move forward.

[Urban_logic]

Originally Posted by cololi

UL: you are missing a key point with your maps. The local streets connect to a mjor street in very few places, which forces cars to use fewer access points to get to and from their neighborhoods. The major streets are there, but honestly, no one in the southwest part of the county want that. when I worked out there every time we tried to connect streets, the neighborhoods came unglued.

Just as you are missing my point. I'm done with this discussion. I think my point is clear. If we don't understand each other's points, then there is no use continuing this discussion any further.

Originally Posted by cololi

You cannot compare Daybreak with harvard yale. I live in HY, and there are no termite problems, no rotting wood, and no more leaking roofs than you find in other homes that are 80-100 year old. I also have family that lives in Daybreak. They are trying to move back to the HY area becasue of how far away from everything daybreak is. There finish work is already falling apart and their utility bills are about 4 times mine, even though their house is only 2x as big. But you can take your "jordans" and stay there. Jordan Commons is less than 10 years old and look how crappy it is. It throws out every best planning practice and is stuck in 1980's development pattern. No thank you.

I wasn't comparing it. I was saying that the big-block grid is universal across the valley. The concept I was trying to illustrate was how urban centers have smaller blocks that disperse into larger blocks as you leave the core with any major city.

I wasn't talking about HY area, I just said the east side in general. Of course not every house on the east side is like that! That is just what happens to older houses - they ware down and need repair. There is nothing wrong with that and no need to be offended by it. I happen to know a few people who have one of these proplems. I'm not saying that every house on the east side has all of these problems. As to 'your family', obviously Daybreak isn't for them. I do think they should stick around another couple years and wait until everything is done before they make an ultimate dicision, but I encourage them to move back if that is where they feel most at home. I perfer Daybreak, they perfer HY, and there isn't anything wrong with either one. Every place has its perks and draw-backs. I have not heard of anyone's houses falling apart out here, but I guess theirs was built by a cheap contractor - which happens with some new homes, just as natural ware and tear happens with some older homes. You just need to make sure that your house was built by a good contractor to avoid this problem - just as you need to maintain older houses to avoid age-related problems. I'm not in Daybreak, but near it. My house is about 15 years old now and still looks new. We haven't needed to make any repairs yet.

"But you can take your "jordans" and stay there."

Was that really necessary? That was quite rude. But, yes, I will "take my Jordans" and stay here because it is what perfer. It is a lifestyle choice that I am more than welcome to have - just as it is yours to live where you do.

Originally Posted by cololi

And don't count on any of Kennecotts planned developments happening. The entire west bench development is off the drawing board with no momentum to move forward.

Really? I hadn't heard that! Does anyone know about Kennecott suspending parts of the project? I drive by the place where they are going to build the pictures from my previous post (the Gateway-looking pics) almost every day and I see contruction moving along just fine. I also just read on UDOT's site that initial phase construction will begin on the Mountain View Corridor next month (March 2009) now that the funding has been reinstated by Obama's bill and Huntsman's reinstating all road projects. If you have found something that says otherwise, you should post it on here so we know about it too.











The apartment and condo villages on the east side of the development also seem to be moving along just fine:









And what's wrong with Jordan Commons? I honestly don't know what you're talking about. I was there not too long ago and it looked as good as new. You don't have to like it if you don't want to, but don't ruin it with your sour attitude for the rest of us! You are fully entitled to your lifestyle prefrences just as the rest of us are. Just be respectful and don't use comments like "You can have your Jordans and stay there!" and "It throws out every best planning practice and is stuck in 1980's development pattern. No thank you."

[Stenar]

Originally Posted by Urban_logic

Come on, you can't say that isn't classy and just a fad that people will soon loathe! It's got that classic, country cottage look to it. I don't see this style going out anytime soon - even if people stop building these kinds of houses, I'm sure they will become vintage and classic.

You are right, east-side neighborhoods do have that historic charm. If you have the time and the money to fix up an old house on the east side and really make it nice, then go for it! The houses I've been in over there are usually drafty with leeky roofs and squeeky floor-boards. I often hear complaints about mice and turmites. I guess the best route would be to rip out the old, decaying parts (like rotting wood beams, floors, leeky roofs, etc.) Then, when you remodel it, make sure to use materials that make it look new, but still retain the old, historic look (only it will have energy star ratings and be fully up to earthquake code). Then you've got a house that totally kicks butt!! I don't have the time, money, or patience for that, but if you do, that's totally cool! Then you also get that feeling of pride and accomplishment when you stand back and look at the house that you modernized!

I'm not saying the homes in Daybreak don't look nice, as new houses go, but new construction cannot compare in quality of materials and craftsmanship. Daybreak is a cheap imitation of the Harvard/Yale neighborhoods.

I've lived in and/or spent a lot of time in various friend's houses around SLC and I don't know any that have rotting wood, leaky roofs, or squeaky floors. The brand new house I grew up in as a kid had far worse squeaky floors than the 91-year-old house I live in now, which doesn't really have any. I did have a mouse in my kitchen here, but I got one of those electronic devices that puts out a noise the mice cannot stand and I haven't seen any mice since. We had mice in the new house I grew up in, too. I guarantee houses in Daybreak have or will have mice in them soon. Mice live in those empty fields and when you dig them up and build houses, the mice move indoors. The brand new office bldg I work in also has mice in the winter. Termites are not that common in Utah because of our cold winters. They do exist, but are not as bad as in warmer climates. I don't know of any of my friends who've ever had a termite problem.

[blazefirelight]

I think that has gotten a little off topic. Doesn't most of this discussion belong in the MSA thread? I got on to read about Salt Lake, not South Jordan.

[Stenar]

Originally Posted by Urban_logic

Really? I hadn't heard that! Does anyone know about Kennecott suspending parts of the project? I drive by the place where they are going to build the pictures from my previous post (the Gateway-looking pics) almost every day and I see contruction moving along just fine.

It was all over the news last summer that Kennecott Land and Salt Lake County had a little spat over zoning for the West Bench and Kennecott announced they were pulling funding from a committee they formed with the county to study the West Bench. At the time, Kennecott said they were putting all plans to develop the West Bench on hold.

From June 2008, The Enterprise: "When Kennecott first conceived the plan to develop the West Bench, the life of the mine had been estimated at 2012. Continuing exploration at Bingham Canyon and new technologies have found additional ore bodies that can be mined in an open pit format for another 30 years and underground activities currently being explored could extend the mine life an additional 20 years." AND from the same article: "'The mine has a growing future in front of it and we need to make sure its rights are well protected. So what we decided to do was to stop the rezoning process,' said Jim Schulte, vice president of long-range planning for KLD."

cololi wasn't talking about the existing Daybreak development and further new housing and a village center, when he said Kennecott had put development on the west side on hold, but other separate developments you had brought up previously such as the one at Soldier Flats with the ski resort at 5400 south or Little Valley in the foothills above Magna, etc.

[Justnslcsugarhood.]

Originally Posted by Urban_logic

Exactly! On the top, you have 9th South, 13th South, 17th South, and 21st South in SLC (all 4 blocks apart). On the bottom, you have Redwood Rd. (about 17th West), then 22nd, then 27th, then 32nd, then Bangetter (about 37th West) in South Jordan - that's 5 blocks apart. They are almost the same size in these areas. The only problem I see is that a lot of the roads on the bottom are not the thick yellow like on the top (because they haven't been expanded yet to 4-lane roads, but can be). You can still see where all the roads I just listed are, some of them are just drawn as small black lines. I think you are looking from Redwood to 27th (10 blocks). Note that there is a through street in between (22nd West). Same with from 27th to Bangetter (10 blocks) - but 32nd West is a through street in between that can be expanded. That means these blocks are 5 blocks apart, compared to 4 blocks. that is a difference of 1/7th of a mile (about 1 or 2 house properties long). So this big block grid is roughly the same throughout the valley (except in down town).

Here I have drawn in my point:





You are missing my point. My point is that the whole valley is built on a large grid - but down town inserts more streets to make smaller blocks. The Jordan urban core's street grid hasn't been built yet - it will probibly follow a similar block scale to down town SLC. The small block down town SLC grid transitions into the big block grid of the valley. The Jordan core will too.

I think we have gone full circle on this topic and can stop now

I believe you have no right to attempt to mediate a conversation, perhaps you should stop trying to do that now

[Urban_logic]

Originally Posted by blazefirelight

I think that has gotten a little off topic. Doesn't most of this discussion belong in the MSA thread? I got on to read about Salt Lake, not South Jordan.

Sorry, it did steer a bit off course (ok, so a lot off course). It started with the grid and digressed a bit. I think I am to blame for starting it. Sorry about that!

Note: If anyone has anything further to say regarding the east-side/west-side culture conflict, please move it over to the MSA thread.

Once again, I take full responsibility and I'm sorry things become so irrelevant. I guess it's hard to back down from a debate and pretty soon you get off topic without realizing it.

[Justnslcsugarhood.]

Originally Posted by Stenar

I'm not saying the homes in Daybreak don't look nice, as new houses go, but new construction cannot compare in quality of materials and craftsmanship. Daybreak is a cheap imitation of the Harvard/Yale neighborhoods.

.

I think they are quite nice, I just wish the majority of West Jordan, South Jordan Taylorsville and Sandy tried to build more neoclassical style houses like this, instead the majority the western part of the valley is trash :/

P.S. any news on who's developing what on state and fourth?

[Urban_logic]

Originally Posted by Stenar

I'm not saying the homes in Daybreak don't look nice, as new houses go, but new construction cannot compare in quality of materials and craftsmanship. Daybreak is a cheap imitation of the Harvard/Yale neighborhoods.

I've lived in and/or spent a lot of time in various friend's houses around SLC and I don't know any that have rotting wood, leaky roofs, or squeaky floors. The brand new house I grew up in as a kid had far worse squeaky floors than the 91-year-old house I live in now, which doesn't really have any. I did have a mouse in my kitchen here, but I got one of those electronic devices that puts out a noise the mice cannot stand and I haven't seen any mice since. We had mice in the new house I grew up in, too. I guarantee houses in Daybreak have or will have mice in them soon. Mice live in those empty fields and when you dig them up and build houses, the mice move indoors. The brand new office bldg I work in also has mice in the winter. Termites are not that common in Utah because of our cold winters. They do exist, but are not as bad as in warmer climates. I don't know of any of my friends who've ever had a termite problem.

I'm sorry, I guess that was my experience and I generalized. You are right, not all older homes are like that and nothing can top historic charm! SLC is a very nice city with a flavorful history that we can all enjoy. Just give Daybreak 50 years or so and it will have the same charming luster (and problems) any aging neighborhood gets.

I had an uncle with a turmite problem, but that was probably a unique case. I shouldn't have over-generalized.

[Urban_logic]

Originally Posted by Justnslcsugarhood.

I believe you have no right to attempt to mediate a conversation, perhaps you should stop trying to do that now

Sorry, I just felt we were going in circles. I realize that I have pissed some people off and I want to stop and move on. I have appologized and I'm trying to end this debate because it has becom irrelevent. Anyone have development news? Please!

[Urban_logic]

Originally Posted by Stenar

It was all over the news last summer that Kennecott Land and Salt Lake County had a little spat over zoning for the West Bench and Kennecott announced they were pulling funding from a committee they formed with the county to study the West Bench. At the time, Kennecott said they were putting all plans to develop the West Bench on hold.

From June 2008, The Enterprise: "When Kennecott first conceived the plan to develop the West Bench, the life of the mine had been estimated at 2012. Continuing exploration at Bingham Canyon and new technologies have found additional ore bodies that can be mined in an open pit format for another 30 years and underground activities currently being explored could extend the mine life an additional 20 years." AND from the same article: "'The mine has a growing future in front of it and we need to make sure its rights are well protected. So what we decided to do was to stop the rezoning process,' said Jim Schulte, vice president of long-range planning for KLD."

cololi wasn't talking about the existing Daybreak development and further new housing and a village center, when he said Kennecott had put development on the west side on hold, but other separate developments you had brought up previously such as the one at Soldier Flats with the ski resort at 5400 south or Little Valley in the foothills above Magna, etc.

Oh, ok. That makes sense. I guess I missed that.

[Future Mayor]

Originally Posted by Justnslcsugarhood.

P.S. any news on who's developing what on state and fourth?

Did you hear something or did somebody break ground on that site?