DENVER | Transportation Thread

[wong21fr]

^If you can't afford a $500 airline ticket, something is seriously wrong.

[Octavian]

Originally Posted by SnyderBock

250mph transcontinental high speed rail promises to make long haul travel more convenient, more dependable, less polluting and more affordable for average income Americans whom can't afford a $500 airline ticket but a few rare times in their entire life.

Amtrack isn't cheaper on the East Coast. If you want cheap, you take the chinatown bus. NY to DC for $20.

[Fritzdude]

Originally Posted by SnyderBock

That's what I'm thinking...
250mph transcontinental high speed rail promises to make long haul travel more convenient, more dependable, less polluting and more affordable for average income Americans whom can't afford a $500 airline ticket but a few rare times in their entire life.

Do you guys take into consideration all the stops that would be required if a High Speed Rail Line were run between Chicago and Denver? Every city would request a stop along the way. I highly doubt the train would run continuously at 250mph all the way through, which means it would never rival the speed of air.

It's hard to even imagine the mammoth costs that would be required to build it. For comparison - our regional rail line is projected to be close to 8-10 Billion Dollars, and this is for 1/10 the distance between Denver and Chicago. Not only that, bu it's utilizing current proven technology. As cool as it sounds, I just don't see a cost rationale for High Speed Rail at such distances.

Maybe in stretches of 100 - 200 miles.. but any further and air travel is so much less encumbered with capital expense.

[Future Mayor]

And although it's at 250 mph you will get to see a lot more of what this country of ours looks like. You would get to see Nebraska without having to drive through it at 70 mph's. That would make seeing Nebraska bearable.

[Strange Meat]

Originally Posted by wong21fr

^If you can't afford a $500 airline ticket, something is seriously wrong.

I can't afford a $500 plane ticket... Oh, wait, yeah, that makes sense though...

[wong21fr]

^You're also not the average American. You're a poor, destitute college student. If you're still like this in four years..... then, yeah. Somethings wrong.

[bcp]

fritz you are absolutely right...we simply couldnt have stops at every town between A and B...there needs to be some type of minimum size...minimu distance...and availability of local services (bus, taxi, local rail)

[diablo234]

Originally Posted by Fritzdude

Do you guys take into consideration all the stops that would be required if a High Speed Rail Line were run between Chicago and Denver? Every city would request a stop along the way. I highly doubt the train would run continuously at 250mph all the way through, which means it would never rival the speed of air.

It's hard to even imagine the mammoth costs that would be required to build it. For comparison - our regional rail line is projected to be close to 8-10 Billion Dollars, and this is for 1/10 the distance between Denver and Chicago. Not only that, bu it's utilizing current proven technology. As cool as it sounds, I just don't see a cost rationale for High Speed Rail at such distances.

Maybe in stretches of 100 - 200 miles.. but any further and air travel is so much less encumbered with capital expense.

Yeah HSR would not work for Denver now since the city is isolated, however once Maglev Technology becomes more affordable to build, I can see dedicated Maglev Lines connecting Denver to to rest of the country as long as the stops were limited, to be able to compete with the airlines.

[Octavian]

My solution to the high speed transit problem:

[SnyderBock]

Vaporize yourself and hope a copy of you can be created on the other end; so that copy can go on living your life?



wong21fr,
Not only can I not afford $500 airline ticket, I can't afford $250 airline tickets. I have to save up all year, to have $300 for a vacation. And that's only on a good year. Everything else goes to bills. I suppose the fact I have never once had health insurance in my life, because I could never afford it (nor could my parents when I was a child); means something is wrong with me?

I suppose the fact that I had to turn down Universities which accepted me, because I didn't land any scholarships and my parents didn't have any credit to co-sign with me for a student loan; it means something is wrong with me?

I suppose the fact that I pump every freakin' dollar I have into this small business I have with my father, because it's all we have and the only hope he has for being able to afford living once he's too old to work; that too means something is wrong with me.

Now that you know what's wrong with me, go figure out what's wrong with everyone else, maybe even yourself for a change.All I know, is if the government stops spending $450 billion a year on military (before war costs) and spent only $300 billion a year on military, we would have $150 billion a year to build transcontinental ultra-high speed rail. Hundreds of billions a year in military and at least $100 to $150 billion of that money just disappears. Our nation could easily afford mega-projects in infrastructure the likes no other place on Earth has ever seen before.

[blm3034L!fe]

^ You tell em' Snyder!

All I want is high speed mag lev going up to Vail and Aspen from downtown Denver by the time the Winter Olympics are announced in 2018 or 2022 for Denver Colorado!!!

Imagine what this area will have accomplished in 10 years for the world to see and view how breath taking this area really is!!! They say in 20 Years Colorado will have 8 Million people calling it home, I wonder if we host the Olympics how many people world wide are going to want to make Denver and Colorado area's their new home. One can only speculate but I'm going to guess the numbers will be overwhelming!!!

[wong21fr]

Well, Snyder, it does sound like you're making the best of a not-so-good situation. Tell me, were there other misteps along the way? Because I do think that something is wrong with your situation that needs to be addressed. Either through a helping hand or something else.

Oh BTW, as we talk about a intercontinental rail network there has been one thing omitted. How much would anyone here be willing to pay to use such a system?

[Ilsaz]

Oh BTW, as we talk about a intercontinental rail network there has been one thing omitted. How much would anyone here be willing to pay to use such a system?

Intercontinental rail? A line that goes to South America? Or a line that crosses the Bering Strait?

I think it would be kinda neat. When I lived in Alaska they talked about a rail link between Alaska and Siberia. It fascinated me. But the costs meant it would probably never be. There is no rail connecting the Alaska Railroad with the lower 48 and the Transsiberian line was still far to the south.

Somehow, though, I don't suspect that is what you meant by Intercontinental.

I'm all for a plan for HSR to go from Denver west to Summit County, Vail and beyond. I do not, though, think it will be economically feasible and we will have to settle for a much slower rail link.

[wong21fr]

^Correction *intracontinental*. Or bicoastal if that suits you.

You cheeky bastard

[Octavian]

Originally Posted by Ilsaz

Intercontinental rail? A line that goes to South America? Or a line that crosses the Bering Strait?

I think it would be kinda neat. When I lived in Alaska they talked about a rail link between Alaska and Siberia. It fascinated me. But the costs meant it would probably never be. There is no rail connecting the Alaska Railroad with the lower 48 and the Transsiberian line was still far to the south.

Somehow, though, I don't suspect that is what you meant by Intercontinental.

I'm all for a plan for HSR to go from Denver west to Summit County, Vail and beyond. I do not, though, think it will be economically feasible and we will have to settle for a much slower rail link.

Actually, there is a prposal for an intercontinental tunnel,railway and pipeline proposed by Russia to alska under the Bering straight to ship Russian oil and natrual gas and Chinese goods to the US. No link. Google it.

[Denver Dweller]

Monday, January 26, 2009
Denver Business Journal

A phone survey of 700 likely voters in metro Denver, conducted Jan. 6-12, found 63 percent would support paying more taxes to get FasTracks done by 2017, the original time frame, the Regional Transportation District said Monday.

Respondents said they’d “generally support” increasing sales tax for RTD by up to 0.4 percent — or 4 cents on a $10 purchase, according to the RTD-commissioned poll.

That would double the amount of taxes metro-area residents currently pay for FasTracks.

Voters in 2004 approved paying an extra 0.4 percent to build FasTracks, which then had a $4.7 billion budget and a 12-year construction timeline to build more than 100 miles of rail lines throughout metro Denver, redevelop Denver Union Station and improve bus service.

Since then, skyrocketing construction costs have ballooned the budget to $7.9 billion even as the recession has shrunk RTD’s sales tax revenues to pay for the project — creating a roughly $2 billion shortfall on the project.

RTD’s board of directors is expected to make a decision this spring on what to do in the face of higher costs and lower revenues. Options on the table include shortening the transit lines, extending the time frame of the project by decades, or asking voters for more money.

That said, respondents told pollsters they thought approving FasTracks in 2004 was still a good decision, despite the budget problems that have cropped up since then.

About 83 percent of respondents said it was a good decision in the 2009 poll, compared to 79 percent with the same answer in RTD’s 2007 poll.

About 53 percent of respondents thought RTD could deliver the full FasTracks project with the current budget problems.

The poll was done for RTD by The Kenney Group.

The margin of error for the poll was plus or minus 3.7 percent.

All contents of this site © American City Business Journals Inc. All rights reserved.

[Fritzdude]

Originally Posted by Denver Dweller

Monday, January 26, 2009
Denver Business Journal

A phone survey of 700 likely voters in metro Denver, conducted Jan. 6-12, found 63 percent would support paying more taxes to get FasTracks done by 2017, the original time frame, the Regional Transportation District said Monday.

Respondents said they’d “generally support” increasing sales tax for RTD by up to 0.4 percent — or 4 cents on a $10 purchase, according to the RTD-commissioned poll.

That would double the amount of taxes metro-area residents currently pay for FasTracks.

Voters in 2004 approved paying an extra 0.4 percent to build FasTracks, which then had a $4.7 billion budget and a 12-year construction timeline to build more than 100 miles of rail lines throughout metro Denver, redevelop Denver Union Station and improve bus service.

Since then, skyrocketing construction costs have ballooned the budget to $7.9 billion even as the recession has shrunk RTD’s sales tax revenues to pay for the project — creating a roughly $2 billion shortfall on the project.

.

WTF..?

Have you seen commodity prices lately? If you're in the market for oil based products, cement, steel, copper, or anything else - this is the time to buy.

[SnyderBock]

The $7.9 billion estimate if the estimate from the end of July, they have not released a new estimate since then, reflecting lower commodity prices. However, sale tax collection have also been plummeting.

wong21fr,,,
I think I have everything going in teh right dirrection, thanks for your concern and sorry if I was too harsh.

[wong21fr]

No problem. I hate to knock the continental HSR back a bit, but based on price comparisons in Europe, you're not looking at all that much savings concerning rail over air travel for dedicated tickets.

[Octavian]

We no longer need to speculate over how fast Maglev would be. Short answer, Maglev and 220 MPH EMU are wicked fast on the plains and slightly faster than driving through the mountains. Updates on the Rocky Mountain Rail Authority site:

They have time tables and alignment studies. Looks like we need to move the CML out east as that's how the trains would access DUS. DIA to DUS under their plan in as little as 13 min. They got feedback to add a tech center station and to look at an alignment along E-470 (to get to DIA I assume).

Boulder, Longmont, Loveland may get bypassed since that alignment heading to Ft. Collins takes a lot longer then one along BNSF lines along where the RTD NE corridor is eventually planned. They estimate between 2:05 (79 mph Diesel train) and 1:05 to get from Denver to Cheyenne, depending on the rail technology. Denver to Ft. Collins in as little as 42 min.

Southbound, the trains have huge savings in time. Denver to Colorado Springs in 1:45 to 0:40. Denver to Trinidad between 4:30 and 1:45.

Heading west, the mountains make it harder to achieve huge advantages in travel time if traffic on I-70 is good. All the technologies they looked at have similar performance. DIA to Denver in 13-16 min. Denver to Copper in between 1:20 and 1:45. Denver to Avon (Vail) 2:12 - 2:32 (they take a longer alignment to Vail to serve Keystone and Breckenridge more easily and because they can't get over Vail pass with a train). Denver to Grand Junction in between 4:10 and 5:05 (the same as driving off peak).

Based on the travel times listed on their preliminary operating plan, looks like they are leaning towards picking the 150 mph non-tilting train, or a tilting train capable of up to 220 mph. The German ICE and French TGV are examples. It lets them use some existing track and is probably cheaper than the Maglev, and definitely more proven, for only slightly less performance.



They have about 23 miles of new tunnels they've identified. At $200 million a mile, that works out to $4.65 billion just for the tunneling.

Well worth looking at all their slides.