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  #541  
Old Posted Jan 2, 2009, 12:15 AM
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Boulder & Weld are counted in the Denver - Boulder CSA.

Regarding the MSA, those counties are included due to commuting patterns. The MSA primarily measures commuting-sheds rather than urbanized areas. Or alternatively, it's a measure of how much sprawl is occuring when many people are driving out of those counties to work rather than working within them.

Glad you mentioned the idea of Weld County should split, I thought it was odd when I moved to Colorado myself.
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  #542  
Old Posted Jan 2, 2009, 3:42 AM
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Either split or give the portions west of I-25 to Boulder Co., although, I think the former is a lot more likely.
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  #543  
Old Posted Jan 2, 2009, 6:30 AM
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I thought Weld was removed...?
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  #544  
Old Posted Jan 3, 2009, 5:36 AM
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Steel prices have fallen 50% since September, how does this affect things for RTD?
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  #545  
Old Posted Jan 4, 2009, 6:17 AM
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Well, RTD pre-ordered a lot of steel for teh West Corridor, before it went up anymore. Then it actually goes down. But fo r the other corridors, it will help a lot. Copper is even more important. Massive amounts of copper are needed for the electrical system and copper costs many times that of steel, per ton. I believe copper is down as well, though I doubt it is anywhere near the 50% steel is down.

RTD starts a new cost estimate in February and it will take 6 months to complete. Next August will likely be the costs RTD has to move forward with on at least the East, Gold and Union Station projects.
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  #546  
Old Posted Jan 4, 2009, 7:16 PM
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RTD starts a new cost estimate in February and it will take 6 months to complete. Next August will likely be the costs RTD has to move forward with on at least the East, Gold and Union Station projects.
Jesus!!! Glaciers move faster.
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  #547  
Old Posted Jan 5, 2009, 1:11 PM
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Oh come *on* people, relax... this is why schedules were published before the thing even started... they have a lot of time to catch up. And these are big damn projects with big, complicated issues... 2018 means 2018. Patience.
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  #548  
Old Posted Jan 5, 2009, 3:10 PM
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Oh come *on* people, relax... this is why schedules were published before the thing even started... they have a lot of time to catch up. And these are big damn projects with big, complicated issues... 2018 means 2018. Patience.
Isn't the bulk of the Union Station work supposed to be completed by 2012?
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  #549  
Old Posted Jan 5, 2009, 11:34 PM
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Union Station is no more than 6 months behind schedule and from what I understand, that can be made up for by accelerating construction on each phase of the more essential elements and then going back and completing the remaining elements last. That's what I gather.

I assume this means they will focus on the transportation aspects of the project first and delay the commercial aspects of the project until the economy strengthens some.

And in reality, the only thing behind schedule is the Light Rail Terminal. The Bus Terminal and Commuter Rail Terminal are all on schedule. And the Light Rail Terminal isn't much at all. All they have to do, is complete the Light Rail Terminal by the end of this year and they are back on schedule. That's my interpretation.
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  #550  
Old Posted Jan 6, 2009, 1:09 AM
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What is the status of the North metro line? Is it to be DMU or EMU? Last I heard it was going to be DMU, but a new study showed that EMU may now be better, so they were going to re-look that option. Now I see articles claiming only the Northwest Line will be DMU.

Nothing I have read from RTD says the North will not be DMU. If it will be EMU, how will the extra funds be acquired to construct the electrical canopy?

Anyone have details or new information?
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  #551  
Old Posted Jan 6, 2009, 4:03 PM
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Last I heard was that all but the NW line were being changed to EMU due to high diesel prices. I don't know anything other than that.
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  #552  
Old Posted Jan 6, 2009, 5:03 PM
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This question was asked last summer on the NorthMetro forum page:

http://teamtoolslive.com/northmetro/forum/index.php?board=2.0

Hi Dave,

I read an article in the Denver Post, where Jim Starling was quoted about the surge in diesel fuel prices and how its prompting RTD to consider substituting electric trains for planned diesel commuter trains on the North Metro rail line to north Adams County. I think this is logical and, as you know, consistent with the majority of the communities wishes in the north area. But some questions:

1) When will you decide?
2) Will this have impacts on the location and design of noise mitigating concrete walls? I wouldn't think so, since RTD's take on pushing the diesel alternative was that, at high speeds, there is no noise difference between EMU and DMU.

I also read in the Rocky Mountain News that as the pricetag on the West line continues to swell, that RTD has responded in the the form of cutting rider and public amenities that had been part of the original project, including fewer security cameras and phones, less landscaping, fewer railings and benches, simplified noise walls and a narrower bike path.

My question is, can we expect similar cuts to the North line? And if so, have you considered shortening the length of the line in lieu of reducing the quality of the project? As this train cuts through the middle of several communities, I think many would rather have a shorter line that is done right, as opposed to a full line that is done half-assed.

Logged

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Thank you for your recent post and interest in North Metro. As you know, Diesel Multiple Unit (DMU) is the recommended technology alternative for the North Metro Corridor that was approved by the RTD Board last fall. At the time, that was the most financially responsible decision. When we evaluated both the Electric and Diesel Multiple Units last year, the price of diesel was $2.52/gallon. This year, we are all watching fuel prices increase dramatically.

So, while our analysis showed that DMU was the most cost-effective alternative for our corridor last year, we have a responsibility to include vehicle technology analysis as part of our 2008 Annual Program Evaluation in order to deliver the most cost-efficient corridor. Information from that evaluation should be released in August.

We will also be taking a look at how the different technologies affect our noise analysis and noise wall recommendations. While you are correct that EMU and DMU are very similar at high speeds, there is a difference in the vehicle noise during acceleration and deceleration near the stations. A recommendation of EMU trains for the corridor could result in less noise walls. In addition, there is potentially a difference in the height of the soundwall based upon the vehicle. Because of the location of the exhaust, a DMU soundwall would typically be 12 feet in height while an EMU soundwall could be 8 feet.

All of RTD, FasTracks and projects throughout the country are experiencing cost challenges recently. The Annual Program Evaluation that I referenced earlier takes a yearly look at construction costs and any changes to the corridors and factors those into an update of the corridor cost. It’s important to remember, however, that part of the voter-approved FasTracks plan was a North Metro Corridor from Denver Union Station to 162nd Avenue. The 18-mile length is what will be reflected in our cost estimates. We will, however, continue to review the corridor for ways to improve efficiency and cost-effectiveness throughout planning, design and construction.
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  #553  
Old Posted Jan 6, 2009, 8:11 PM
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What is that link for the North Metro Forum? I looked back but could not locate it.
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Last edited by SnyderBock; Jan 7, 2009 at 5:58 AM.
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  #554  
Old Posted Jan 7, 2009, 4:06 PM
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What is that link for the North Metro Forum? I looked back but could not locate it.
You mean... aside from the link I posted above?
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  #555  
Old Posted Jan 7, 2009, 4:09 PM
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oh thanks, I was looking back several pages for the link posted weeks ago. I completely over looked the new post right above!
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  #556  
Old Posted Jan 12, 2009, 9:28 PM
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Good news: FasTracks costs headed down



Ever hear of a public works project that dropped in cost? You soon may.
A worldwide drop in commodities and construction costs could lower RTD's $7.9 billion price tag for FasTracks.


But what one hand giveth ...


The worldwide recession is cutting even more deeply into RTD's sales tax revenues.


What it means is that even with its costs lowering, RTD's budget gap could be widening.


The dilemma was outlined this morning for a task force of the Metro Mayors Caucus, which is working with RTD to come up with a strategy for FasTracks.


In the last assessment of its budget and financing for FasTracks in August, RTD estimated it was $2.1 billion short of completing the program by the original 2017 date – it estimated it would generate $5.8 billion in resources by that time to pay for a $7.9 billion program.


That's why RTD has been working with community leaders to determine whether it should delay completion as revenues allow, build what can be afforded by 2017 or seek another sales tax hike and other revenue to get back on the original schedule.


With the release last week of sales tax collections for November, RTD found it had taken in nearly 10 percent less than in November 2007, a precipitous drop that caused the agency to freeze salaries, investigate bus and light rail service cuts and demand budget trims through all departments.


It also has an impact on FasTracks planning.


"It changes the assumptions we're using in the financing plan for FasTracks much more radically than we expected," Bill Van Meter, RTD's senior manager for systems planning, told the mayors' meeting. "We don't have confidence in what our old financial projections will look like in light of the bombshell from November's figures."


RTD is tightening up its timetable to give updated information to the mayor's group and the community, and may delay a board vote on how to proceed with FasTracks until the end of March instead of mid-March. That will give RTD more time to develop more realistic numbers in light of recent economic news, and mayors may not have new data until March 3 instead of mid-February as originally planned.


Some mayors told RTD they don't like waiting because they will need time to react with their city councils. In addition, with the fast pace of worldwide economic news, even well thought out figures could be obsolete in a week.


"We have to make a decision," said Broomfield Mayor Pat Quinn. "What we do know is that whatever projection you guys come up with is going to be wrong anyway."


Van Meter said declining project costs as steel and concrete drop in price won't solve FasTracks problems.


"There's still going to be a sizable gap and something that merely tweaks

that isn't going to fix it," he said.


Aurora Mayor Ed Tauer said RTD should work toward a plan that acknowledges change is inevitable and build in flexibility to adjust to those changes, but that a decision on whether and how to build the whole program should be made.


"You just build that adaptability into the solution," he said. "Your 9.6-percent drop in sales tax in November is too small a data point to drive five to 10 years of planning your program."


"Your financial situation is probably going to change on a monthly basis," agreed Thornton Mayor Erik Hansen.

[email protected] or 303-954-5247.

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  #557  
Old Posted Jan 12, 2009, 10:52 PM
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Your financial situation is probably going to change on a monthly basis.
Pearls of wisdom.
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  #558  
Old Posted Jan 12, 2009, 11:40 PM
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it's rather immature of them to wait for the perfect moment and then expect none of the variables to continue changing over time...it's complicated, there will be huge pieces that change no matter what you do...hopefully, this is the start of a "let's get the damn thing built" attitude. surely they are design-building each corridor?
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  #559  
Old Posted Jan 13, 2009, 7:16 PM
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This seems like an very large program for organization that doesn't have any experience making the day-to-day decisions for anything close to this size/complexity. (Didn't T-Rex involve C-DOT and some private companies?) Was there ever any consideration to "hand over the keys" for the project?
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  #560  
Old Posted Jan 13, 2009, 11:22 PM
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It doesn't matter who has the keys to this project. Sales taxes remained strong with steady growth for 15 years straight, then crash. Materials skyrocket to historical highs, then crash. New data coming in now shows that commodities climbed to historical highs, despite the fact that demand was already trending downward and production was increasing at the same time. The only market force driving up prices in these materials and commodities were big investment firms such as "Merrill Lynch," whom were actually pushing investors to treat hedge investment funds as actually worthy of investing in as if they were stocks or Mutual funds. The demand for hedge Funds grew so huge, so rapidly from these investment firms, that it fueled the global cost increase. These are the same companies behind the mortgage crises. The same companies receiving hundreds of billions of dollars of taxpayer's funds with little or no oversight.

Just how much are these companies really worthy of being saved from bankruptcy? To me, it sounds like perhaps it was time for some of their smaller competitors to takeover their market share. One thing is for certain, they received this tax money, so that they would start issuing out the loans again and they are not doing this. What a surprise, these are the people that created the mortgage crises and threatened countless industries and construction projects around the country and world by pushing high risk investments in hedge funds.

How is RTD or anyone supposed to predict this crap? It's not going to happen. The only hope is that everything will stabilize in a few years and that the Denver area's population growth outpaces projection, resulting in sales taxes growing more rapidly than hopped--thus bring FasTracks relief down the road. That and/or any Federal assistance RTD qualifies for under some future Obama backed bill.

As for now, not only do I expect Design-Build, but I expect to see many corridors done with Design-Build-Operate contracts. Perhaps multiple corridors can be awarded to the same team at a discounted rate, even. Awarding the Gold and East Line to the same Design-Build-Operate entity may yield slightly reduced costs. Awarding the North and NW/US-36 projects to a single Design-Build-Operate entity, may again yield a discounted total cost.
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