Millennium Line - Evergreen Extension | Completed

[ravman]

Originally Posted by deasine

That's the most stupid thing I've heard.

Robert Tribe- Robert Tribe is a long-time Executive VP of SNC Lavalin. He has worked on various rapid transit projects for SNC including the original Skytrain, and rapid transit projects in Kuala Lampur and Manila. He called the latter project “an excellent example of innovation in public-private partnerships.” Will now sit on a board that is responsible for overseeing a project involving his company.

ok you all know who he is right--- Translink BOD member

http://142.36.252.26/cgi-bin/bcimg/?PTY-LIB-1995

That is a links from Elections BC... "British Columbia Disclosure Reports - British Columbia Liberal Party"- add up the donation to the BC Liberal!

Enjoy! ( note to mods- Elections BC is neutral and this is what they have posted from what the BC Liberals have disclosed. i am going to assume that they have disclosed EVERYTHING, but let the record from Elections BC speak for itself that SNC-Lavalin or known associates of SNC-Lavalin DID donate money to the BC Liberals, even though that may be "the most stupid thing [you]'ve heard." and thanks for the Warning, with this evidence, i shall consider it to be rescinded)

[Jared]

Originally Posted by ravman

ahhaha you would THINK so... but the Gordo and company are going to force a P3 who is then going to turn around and cut corners left right and center.... you saw how they botched the Canada line... single tracking, cut/cover 40m platforms etc etc.... I already see SNC Lavalin outside the gordo's office trying to win the contract and so they can botch yet another rapid transit.


The NDP, i believe, in their policies supports a ALRT to Douglas College and with a change in government, they are going to actually build the thing. Everyone wants this done sooner rather than later and Because Everyone Matters, the NDP is actually going to build a line out beyond Coq Station.

Sorry i know the truth hurts, but it was the NDP that built the Millennium Line in a manner that was compatible with the existing system and the Liberals built the Canada line using a different technology, which meant increased cost for a OMC and different trains. The logical thing was to connect it to Waterfront station and have it more convenient for "Everyone". It was the NDP who built switches and a third track to accomodate a future extension beyond Coq Station!

A couple of points:

- The number of scope cuts from the Canada Line was regrettable, but it was not InTransitBC's uniliateral decision to change scope, it all had to be approved by RAVCO. Blaming InTransitBC is like blaming a car dealer for not giving you a Ferrari after you agreed on (and paid for) a Honda Civic.

- Am I to understand you believe the province should have put an extra billion dollars into the Canada Line (to get rid of the P3 component, and to pay for all the extra scope)? Please clarify. Also, isn't the NDP critical of pumping in extra dollars to complete a project instead of cutting scope (see Convention Centre).

- The 40m platforms aren't really a big deal, the real issue is the lower maximum capacity (of which the platform lengths are a component).

- Another OMC would be needed anyways, the Edmond's yard wont be able to hold all the extra trains being thrown at it. This is the reason why there will likely be another OMC in Coquitlam.

- The Canada Line is connected at Waterfront station, unless you mean continuing the same tracks. They're pointing the wrong way. There was a study done in 2003 which proposed this, but the line took a different (and IMO inferior) route that connected to Stadium station.

- You claim the NDP is planning to build a line out past Coquitlam Station. Are you suggesting the Evergreen Line as planned will not go all the way to Douglas? Or are you suggestion the NDP wants to build something east of Coquitlam Station? Do you have any evidence for these plans? And I mean something a bit more concrete than the transport critic mentioning "I think it might be a good idea" in a local newspaper.

Lastly, the funniest thing about your entire rant is that you seem to have missed the biggest blunder the Liberals made WRT the Evergreen Line: Cancelling it in the first place. If they hadn't axed the orignal plan, it could have been built much cheaper and much sooner (I think the original year 2000 cost estimate was $700 million. I belive this only went to Lincoln though, not Douglas). How on earth did you miss this?

[SpongeG]

just drive to the airport or take the many shuttle options from teh tri cities - i can walk to at least 3 hotels in coquitlam and get on an airport shuttle if i wanted to

[deasine]

Originally Posted by ravman

Robert Tribe- Robert Tribe is a long-time Executive VP of SNC Lavalin. He has worked on various rapid transit projects for SNC including the original Skytrain, and rapid transit projects in Kuala Lampur and Manila. He called the latter project “an excellent example of innovation in public-private partnerships.” Will now sit on a board that is responsible for overseeing a project involving his company.

ok you all know who he is right--- Translink BOD member

Okay... Telus donated more money than Robert Tripe & SNC/Lavin... maybe that's the reason why the BC Government is now using Telus phones instead of Rogers (I have no idea which phone company they are using).

Looking back at the General Election Financing reports, Robert Tripe of SNC/Lavin donated in the 2005 election, which was after the November 24, 2004 RAVCO recommendation. By the way, both Bombardier and SNC/Lavin donated to the BC Liberal campaign in the 2001 election.

Originally Posted by ravman

Enjoy! ( note to mods- Elections BC is neutral and this is what they have posted from what the BC Liberals have disclosed. i am going to assume that they have disclosed EVERYTHING, but let the record from Elections BC speak for itself that SNC-Lavalin or known associates of SNC-Lavalin DID donate money to the BC Liberals, even though that may be "the most stupid thing [you]'ve heard." and thanks for the Warning, with this evidence, i shall consider it to be rescinded)

While ElectionsBC is neutral, the tone of your post wasn't. It is not necessary to point these things out. And no your warning won't be rescinded and there is no reason why it should be. Evoking political discussions in anywhere else but the political forum should not be done and won't be tolerated any longer.

While this isn't SSC, such rules can be/are applied here. This forum and its server are private property. You're here only because you're invited to be here. We can revoke that invitation at any time for any reason, or no reason at all.

[mr.x]

Originally Posted by ravman

ahhaha you would THINK so... but the Gordo and company are going to force a P3 who is then going to turn around and cut corners left right and center.... you saw how they botched the Canada line... single tracking, cut/cover 40m platforms etc etc.... I already see SNC Lavalin outside the gordo's office trying to win the contract and so they can botch yet another rapid transit.

A P3 doesn't necessary mean another Canada Line. There are many forms of P3 systems, not just the one design/build/operate/finance P3 we had with the Canada Line. Other P3 systems can work for the Evergreen Line if done correctly.

The fact of the matter is the Canada Line, off peak times will be running every 20 minutes (10 in vancouver) and i tell you waiting 6ish minutes for a skytrain at Lake City Way or Production or whereever on a late evening, is bad enough.... the last thing British Columbians want is this government to build a botched project that has a train every 20 minutes or something to go to Coquitlam especially after changing trains at Lougheed ( provided they do not integrate it) and Broadway/Commercial.

It's merely the contracted minimum, I would think the frequency will be higher than that during off-peak and especially late night.

[Metro-One]

Many new train lines start with such frequencies, in fact many new train lines start with even lower frequencies (once ever 6 minutes along the Vancouver stretch is pretty good for a new line during peak periods) not to mention these frequencies can be easily increased.

But why are we talking so much about the Canada line on this thread?

Let's get some more evergreen line news!

[mr.x]

Originally Posted by ravman

Purchase more trains after ONLY 7 years- that is a very long foresight....

In all fairness, many more Mark I cars were purchased in 1991....just 5 years after the Expo Line was complete.

the Millennium Line delayed for months... the Evergreen line has been "Delayed" since 2001

It was either the Evergreen Line or the Canada Line. And the Evergreen Line was temporarily shelved for the Canada Line, especially with the upcoming 2010 bid. At the end of the day, we did build a new rapid transit rail line.

Keep in mind that it was also the NDP at ~1995 that shelved the Socred plan to extend SkyTrain to Richmond/YVR in favour of serving its own NDP ridings in Burnaby and the Tri-Cities by building the Millennium Line and the then "Port Moody-Coquitlam Line", now known as the Evergreen.

yes a new OMC would have been needed, but it is more efficient to have 2 big ones that can also accomodate the extension to UBC, Coq station and Langley.

That, I would have to agree with....it's all about economies of scale.

the RFP was done by the Prov govt namely the Falcon and company... they saw that Bombardier had an advantage to use a rolling stock and they also saw the large cash donations from SNC in their pockets and that is why they decided to put this in the RFP so that it gave SNC an advantage

You should note that SNC-Lavalin has been a huge part in building rapid transit in B.C. for decades. They didn't exactly pop up from nowhere. They were heavily involved in the design and construction process of both the Expo and Millennium Lines.

[mr.x]

Originally Posted by deasine

I can't believe you mentioned about Canada Line... there is no reason why the Canada Line should be connected with the rest of the SkyTrain network. It would've cost a lot more for ALRT technology instead of conventional rail. There is no need to connect the two networks together as people from Burnaby wouldn't be taking the SkyTrain all the way to downtown back down to Richmond. It serves two different kinds of commuters. A new OMC would've been needed as the current OMC is almost maxed out to the limits.

If I didn't recall wrong, the RFPs made sure that Bombardier did not combine rolling stocks with the SkyTrain so that it would make it fair for all companies, SNC/Lavin, Bombardier, MTRC, etc., who were bidding for the Canada Line contract.

Well actually, had RAVCO allowed Bombardier to submit a cost savings bid the Canada Line as SkyTrain would have cost only $150-million more than SNC-Lavalin's $1.72-billion bid. And as we all know, the $1.72-billion is now $2-billion.

But RAVCO, as you said yourself, wanted to keep the process fair. And so, they rejected the Bombardier cost savings bid even though it would have cost less. And using economies of scale, the operational costs for a SkyTrain Canada Line would have likely been lower too.

Bombardier's resubmitted bid was reportedly $2.5-billion, versus SNC-Lavalin's $1.72-billion.




Anyhow, I'm getting quite tired of ravman bringing politics in every post he makes.

[Metro-One]

It sounds silly but i am actually kind of excited to have a little more variety in Vancouver's train technology. Makes it more interesting to ride a different style of rail car. So with the Evergreen line (and the new cars ordered for Expo/M lines) are there any changes to the new Mark 2 cars compared to the ones we already have? Different seating alignment, body style, LCD displays inside the cars?

[deasine]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

It sounds silly but i am actually kind of excited to have a little more variety in Vancouver's train technology. Makes it more interesting to ride a different style of rail car. So with the Evergreen line (and the new cars ordered for Expo/M lines) are there any changes to the new Mark 2 cars compared to the ones we already have? Different seating alignment, body style, LCD displays inside the cars?

No one really knows what is in store with the future... Different seating alignments are (supposedly) going to be on the next fleets of MKII cars.

[Metro-One]

Thanks. I really hope they have overhead LCD displays like on the new C-line cars.

[mr.x]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

Thanks. I really hope they have overhead LCD displays like on the new C-line cars.

Don't you mean LED display?


Hopefully, they'll also have LED displays outside the train too showing the final destination. Wishful thinking, no?

[deasine]

Originally Posted by mr.x2

Don't you mean LED display?


Hopefully, they'll also have LED displays outside the train too showing the final destination. Wishful thinking, no?

Well installing interior LED displays isn't too hard. Just use the ones on the buses... though it might be a bit of a challenge underground...

[CoryHolmes]

Originally Posted by mr.x2

Don't you mean LED display?


Hopefully, they'll also have LED displays outside the train too showing the final destination. Wishful thinking, no?

I'd rather they had LED displays at each station with a countdown until when the next train showed up. Take out a lot of the guesswork and people leaning over the tracks to see when the next train is due.

[eduardo88]

Originally Posted by CoryHolmes

I'd rather they had LED displays at each station with a countdown until when the next train showed up. Take out a lot of the guesswork and people leaning over the tracks to see when the next train is due.

I'm really surprised they don't have that already, how hard/expensive can it be to install LED displays on the platforms, especially when its an automated system so programming the schedule onto the LED can't be that complex...

[The_Henry_Man]

Originally Posted by mr.x2

Well actually, had RAVCO allowed Bombardier to submit a cost savings bid the Canada Line as SkyTrain would have cost only $150-million more than SNC-Lavalin's $1.72-billion bid. And as we all know, the $1.72-billion is now $2-billion.

But RAVCO, as you said yourself, wanted to keep the process fair. And so, they rejected the Bombardier cost savings bid even though it would have cost less. And using economies of scale, the operational costs for a SkyTrain Canada Line would have likely been lower too.

Bombardier's resubmitted bid was reportedly $2.5-billion, versus SNC-Lavalin's $1.72-billion.

Anyhow, I'm getting quite tired of ravman bringing politics in every post he makes.

But then the cost of the Bombardier's bid would also increase at the same time due to inflation and rising labour costs along with the current SNC-Lavalin's plan over time. So I don't think that would make any difference.

The biggest problem was RAVCO's gross underestimation of potential residents and the capacity that C-Line can serve. It should've been at the realm of 20000 pphd. Even though it serves fewer current/potential customers than E/M Lines, but Richmond still has sufficient demand to warrant that (it's around 185,000 ppl now, right after Burnaby!!), not to mention Vancouver, South Surrey/Delta and White Rock. But if Docklands Railway in London was able to undergo expansion of its capacity, why can't the C-Line?

Originally Posted by mr.x2

Don't you mean LED display?


Hopefully, they'll also have LED displays outside the train too showing the final destination. Wishful thinking, no?

Is it actually possible that Bombardier can make some kind of MK2.5 trains to incorporate LED displays showing the Line and its terminus destination in front, side and inside the trains? I think M/E/Evergreen Lines should all need them because they all interline with each other. Although there are voice announcement that would say which line that train runs on, what about the people who are hearing-impaired? I know they are announcements on the displays on stations, but that's too obscure. Putting those displays on the trains themselves is a MUST on those lines.

[DKaz]

Originally Posted by The_Henry_Man

what about the people who are hearing-impaired? I know they are announcements on the displays on stations, but that's too obscure.

No complaints from my hearing impaired friends. LED displays on the trains themselves would be nice (on both ends plus the sides would be a huge bonus) but they make do with what's currently available...

I'm more concerned that they installed the yellow tactile strip at the edge of the platform. It should've been installed at least a foot away from the edge of the platform like in Tokyo etc. to warn people that they're too close to the edge of the platform. The way it's installed now, if you're stepping on the yellow tactile strip you're ALREADY too close to the edge of the platform!

[mr.x]

Originally Posted by The_Henry_Man

But then the cost of the Bombardier's bid would also increase at the same time due to inflation and rising labour costs along with the current SNC-Lavalin's plan over time. So I don't think that would make any difference.

Yes, logically if SNC-Lavalin's bid cost $1.72-billion and eventually turned into $2.05-billion, then Bombardier's $1.85-billion would probably be more like $2.1-billion. But at the end of the day, there would have been lower operational costs.

The biggest problem was RAVCO's gross underestimation of potential residents and the capacity that C-Line can serve. It should've been at the realm of 20000 pphd. Even though it serves fewer current/potential customers than E/M Lines, but Richmond still has sufficient demand to warrant that (it's around 185,000 ppl now, right after Burnaby!!), not to mention Vancouver, South Surrey/Delta and White Rock. But if Docklands Railway in London was able to undergo expansion of its capacity, why can't the C-Line?

I thought Docklands LR was primarily above ground/elevated? It's much easier to extend ground/above ground stations than the cut and cover mess on Cambie. Any significant platform extension would require digging up massive sections of the line to settle the grading to allow for a longer station.

Is it actually possible that Bombardier can make some kind of MK2.5 trains to incorporate LED displays showing the Line and its terminus destination in front, side and inside the trains? I think M/E/Evergreen Lines should all need them because they all interline with each other. Although there are voice announcement that would say which line that train runs on, what about the people who are hearing-impaired? I know they are announcements on the displays on stations, but that's too obscure. Putting those displays on the trains themselves is a MUST on those lines.

It would be nice if the stations themselves had automatic station announcements about train arrivals, along with the countdown message on the LED or LCD screens. In Hong Kong, the stations announce: "The train to ____ is now arriving. Please let passengers off first." And personally, I think there should be door closing announcements too on the trains: "Please stand away from the doors."

[Metro-One]

Yes i agree, we do need more announcements at the stations and more detailed announcements in the trains. Also many times the audio in the train is to low and you can barely hear it underground. It should be programed to be louder when in underground locations.

[SpongeG]

the federals stepped in to get the Canada line built - without them we would have probably had nothing and the evergreen line might be underway now but who knows