K Street Pedestrian Mall Renovation

[econgrad]

^ If I am the ideologue, then why is there strong interest to put cars back on K street?

I would also like some evidence of K street going downhill after the street cars stopped operating, because this article states that the mall was a lively cruise spot up until 1969. I think your creating your facts again...

http://www.sacunion.com/pages/education/articles/10093/

I am also willing to bet that the retailers strongly disagree with you about the success of a mall not catering to consumers such as soccer moms, etc. That is why their is success in Roseville Galleria, and not in DTP, easier to access with vehicles/cars.

[Majin]

econgrad no offense but I'm still confused as to why you are here and not Fresno.

[Phillip]

Originally Posted by econgrad

I am also willing to bet that the retailers strongly disagree with you about the success of a mall not catering to consumers such as soccer moms, etc. That is why their is success in Roseville Galleria, and not in DTP, easier to access with vehicles/cars.

So why did Florin Mall shut? Florin had abundant free parking in a middle class family neighborhood.

And why does Westfield's SF Centre thrive? There's no free parking within miles. The mall garage charges $3.50 per 20 minutes, up to $25/day, and there's a line of cars backed up waiting to get in. The mall is packed and suburban soccer moms are a small portion of the crowd.

The Roseville model works in places like Roseville. Other models work better other places. Not all of Westfield's malls are suburban, and some of their suburban malls are in as rough a shape as Downtown Plaza.

========

I mentioned about no ads from DTP in the December Sactown. There's none in Sacramento magazine either. I thought maybe Westfield decided to split their buy this year, promoting the Galleria in Sactown mag and DTP in Sacramento. But no DTP ads in either mag.

[wburg]

econgrad, being a cruise spot is not an indication of economic vitality. Cruisers hang out in their cars and maybe patronize a liquor store or a late-night diner, but generally the stores along a cruise area are already closed. The whole point is driving around, not shopping. Not to mention that large numbers of intoxicated teenagers driving around is typically one of the things that scares off middle-class soccer moms from wanting to shop someplace. If you read later in the article you'll note that the K Street project was undertaken in 1969 not because K Street was super successful, but because they wanted to revive K Street.

My information comes from studies of the downtown shopping problem and competition from suburban shopping centers, written in the late 1950s and early 1960s. They point to K Street's decline coming shortly after the opening of suburban shopping centers, like Town & Country Village in 1948, then Arden Fair, Country Club and others in the early 1950s.

It wouldn't really make much difference if we demolished several city blocks around K Street Mall and turned them into parking lots. We know this, because when K Street Mall was first opened, several city blocks around the mall were demolished and turned into parking lots. At the time, the downtown freeways were brand new and vastly under-capacity, so traffic wasn't a problem. But K Street was never a particularly successful experiment.

The real problem with downtown malls vs. suburban malls is proximity: people will go to the closest mall. If the downtown mall has the same sort of stores as the suburban mall, there is no reason for someone living in the suburbs to go to the downtown mall.

[Majin]

I know no one really takes me seriously here but I'll go ahead throw my random 2 cents in as a resident basically living on the K street mall for the past year or so.

I'd say at least 80% of the problem with K street mall and DTP as a whole has nothing to do with LRT running through there, nothing to do with the need to open it up to cars, nothing to do with soccer moms not wanting to go there.

The real problem is there is no where near enough housing in downtown proper, especially around the JKL corridor. Just not enough people to patronize the mall and surrounding business. It's quite sad for me to walk down K street on a Monday night at 7pm and see Ride Aide closed, most restaurants and other shops closed. There are just not enough residents strangling the streets at night during the weekdays.

Anyway I believe LRT vs Cars vs Streetcars etc is a worthy discussion but the housing issue in the JKL corridor needs to be addressed in parallel or else any efforts made on the mall will in my opinion be wasted without the residents to support it.

BTW what is the issue with the lack of housing? For the insane amount of rent I pay there MUST be some serious demand for cheaper housing.

[wburg]

Majin: You're absolutely right. There needs to be a lot more housing in the central city, especially downtown. As mentioned above, the main reason why downtown malls don't work is because suburban malls are more convenient for suburban residents. But urban malls are far more convenient for people who live downtown! Increase the central city population, and suddenly those downtown businesses have more customers.

K Street went downhill when Sacramento's middle class moved out to the suburbs, and the working class was kicked out by redevelopment, in the 1950s and 1960s. Bringing back central city housing (at all income levels) can reverse that trend, and create a volume of customers for downtown businesses to stay open late.

The lack of housing has a lot to do with the unspeakably bad economy, unfortunately, and there's no easy answer for that.

[econgrad]

Majin you are correct, and thanks for sharing. Wburg, no sources?

[Surefiresacto]

Do you guys suppose that if the Railyards project is successful and brings an influx of urban residents to Sacramento, then the DTP has a chance of revival?

[Majin]

^^ Given that the railyards is no where near DTP and the railyards will have it's own shopping district that will be likely nicer, DTP would be finished.

[Cynikal]

Originally Posted by Majin

I know no one really takes me seriously here but I'll go ahead throw my random 2 cents in as a resident basically living on the K street mall for the past year or so.

I'd say at least 80% of the problem with K street mall and DTP as a whole has nothing to do with LRT running through there, nothing to do with the need to open it up to cars, nothing to do with soccer moms not wanting to go there.

The real problem is there is no where near enough housing in downtown proper, especially around the JKL corridor. Just not enough people to patronize the mall and surrounding business. It's quite sad for me to walk down K street on a Monday night at 7pm and see Ride Aide closed, most restaurants and other shops closed. There are just not enough residents strangling the streets at night during the weekdays.

Anyway I believe LRT vs Cars vs Streetcars etc is a worthy discussion but the housing issue in the JKL corridor needs to be addressed in parallel or else any efforts made on the mall will in my opinion be wasted without the residents to support it.

BTW what is the issue with the lack of housing? For the insane amount of rent I pay there MUST be some serious demand for cheaper housing.

I agree, I've been screaming this for years. K street needs 24 hour foot traffic and not just at the price point that Majin pays but a diversity of rents.

[econgrad]

Originally Posted by Surefiresacto

Do you guys suppose that if the Railyards project is successful and brings an influx of urban residents to Sacramento, then the DTP has a chance of revival?

I think this is one of those... maybes. 10,000+ residents correct? If DTP offers some reason for them to go over and shop, I am sure some will. Majin has another good point, if its not convenient to them, they may not come over to DTP. Cynikal is correct as well, 24 hour foot traffic will of course help out an area t be more vibrant. We have the answers, cars and people/residences.

[ltsmotorsport]

That K street central project that joninsac posted a while back would be a huge help. It was the one on the same block as the Citizen and we only ever saw pics of a model, no actual details (although the two towers were definitely res. in design).

[Phillip]

Originally Posted by Surefiresacto

Do you guys suppose that if the Railyards project is successful and brings an influx of urban residents to Sacramento, then the DTP has a chance of revival?

If the Railyards didn't include major retail that influx of population to downtown would greatly benefit DTP. But retail will be in the Railyards and that could be the final nail in DTP's coffin....if DTP hangs on long enough to see the Railyards built.

Since progress at the Railyards is slow I think the big wild card in DTP's near-term future is whether Macy's stays or goes, more than what happens in the Railyards. I haven't heard that Macy's is leaving (and I wouldn't hear; I'm not connected), but Macy's has been closing underperforming stores around the country and the DTP store seems vulnerable at least. Losing Macy's would be devestating to DTP, since it's the mall's only anchor.

If DTP was levelled I think its location would be perfect for a corridor of highrise apartments and condos. That would be great for K Street, of course. But it seems like things maybe have to get worse before they can get better again.

[wburg]

econgrad: Plenty of information can be found in the Sacramento Room of the Central Library. Ask for the pamphlet files for malls and shopping centers, redevelopment, and the West End.

The studies I mentioned are:

The impact of Sacramento's suburban shopping centers on her central business district / Hansel Hudgens Cope.

West End commercial complex : a general development plan and report for a portion of project area no. 2-A and no. 3 in Sacramento / prepared for the Redevelopment Agency of Sacramento by Skidmore, Owings & Merrill.

There are other studies and collections on Sacramento's redevelopment era, you just kind of have to poke around for them. Some are at SAMCC, others at the CSUS library.

If you don't want to do the primary source research, I'd recommend Steven Avella's books Indomitable City, a general city history that mentions the redevelopment era and K Street, and The Good Life, which focuses on Sacramento's consumer culture.

[LandofFrost]

This weekend I went to DTP to do some Christmas shopping. I remember what it was like to go shopping in DTP the first few years it was open; there were tons of people, all the shops were full and there was constant foot traffic coming from Old town down to K street.

What I saw this weekend was just depressing. The entire block east of DTP is a deserted mess, almost post-apocalyptic. The mall was deserted... on Saturday! One week before Christmas! Now I realize that it was freezing outside, but .. damn.. The week before that i went to Arden Mall and it really wasn't that crowded either, so the economy could also be to blame.

On an up note, the Cosmo lounge and Palare were both packed to the limits the last two weekends, though honestly I don’t' know how people afford to go to these places every week. Cosmo cost my group of friends $90, just to get in the door and about $400 for alcohol. The six of us could have had dinner at Ella for the same price

[Majin]

^^ Yeah, for some reason downtown proper on the whole only caters to the rich and and the poor with almost nothing offered in the middle for both housing and entertainment... Midtown is a good mix of both. Downtown is lacking in that respect.

[econgrad]

Originally Posted by Majin

^^ Yeah, for some reason downtown proper on the whole only caters to the rich and and the poor with almost nothing offered in the middle for both housing and entertainment... Midtown is a good mix of both. Downtown is lacking in that respect.

That's what I have been saying all along! Except that the products geared to higher prices "the rich" are not worth it in DT or MT. More needs to be built and prices are about 30 to 40% way to high for the value of what you get for everyone, rich and poor. They need a glut of condos and apts DT and MT for things to improve I guess, so build build build! More apts and condos..

[doriankage]

From the Crapamento Bee.
By Ed Fletcher and Mary Lynne Vellinga
Published: Monday, Dec. 22, 2008 | Page 1B

As Bing Crosby's "White Christmas" played from the speakers above downtown Sacramento's outdoor ice rink Sunday morning, the K Street Mall scene sang another song.

The rain-soaked rink was empty. Hardly a storefront was open along the two blocks closest to the Downtown Plaza. And the homeless and nearly homeless outnumbered the shoppers.

"It's dead," said Alan DeMena, who ventured downtown from Antelope on Sunday morning with his wife and son to check out the scene and have lunch. "It's amazing. A few days before Christmas and there's nothing here."

"Nothing" isn't exactly true. More people were shopping at Westfield's Downtown Plaza.

The city of Sacramento has struggled for years to give the traffic-free stretch of K Street between Downtown Plaza and the Convention Center more economic and social pop.

There has been limited success at restaurants closer to the Convention Center. But the 700 and 800 blocks – home to absent storefronts and gaping holes in the ground – were empty Sunday.

For years, city officials have pinned their hopes on Joe Zeiden, whose family owns the Z Gallerie furniture chain. Zeiden proposes to revamp the historic storefronts in the 700 block for modern retail tenants, including Z Gallerie.

But Zeiden was delayed for several years by the city's battle with former K Street property owner Moe Mohanna, who only recently agreed to sell his nine properties to the city for $18.6 million. The market has changed, and Zeiden has made it clear he doesn't intend to move forward unless he gets more money from the city.

"He wants to meet with Mayor (Kevin) Johnson, and that meeting is being scheduled," said Assistant City Manager John Dangberg. "Based on that, I would suspect we'll get a proposal from him. We had a real different marketplace when he started."

Mohanna is working with local hotel developer Bob Leach on a plan to buy back his former properties in the 800 block of K Street from the city redevelopment agency, and build a 400-room hotel and a mixed-use complex fronting L Street.

DeMena held out hope Johnson will be able to get the area singing once more.

Some physical improvements to the mall are already on the way.

The city is scheduled to start construction in February on $4 million in improvements to the K Street pedestrian mall that include new seating, lighting, paving and sidewalks.

Light rail trains will pull into new platforms, and the station in the 700 block of K Street will be moved around the corner.

Then, in March, Westfield is expected to begin a $40 million renovation of the shopping center. The food court will be moved from the area next to the movie theater to the front of the mall at Seventh and K.

At Downtown Plaza, there were, few if any, lines and plenty of room for shoppers to maneuver.

"We came here because Arden Fair (mall) is too busy," said Michelle Gonzales, of Woodland.

Gonzales said she didn't have to fight her way through the store and still found everything she needed.

Elizabeth McAllister, of south Sacramento, had the same thought: "We didn't have to wait in any lines."

Donna McDonald and her daughter Rae found the New Year's Eve blouse they'd been searching for at Downtown Plaza. They said they don't have much use for other K Street shopping in its current state.

[LandofFrost]

^^^^ Wow, they pay people to write this 🞵🞵🞵🞵? I bet this article took 15 minutes to write, and was probubly half made up.

[wburg]

"Area With Almost No Stores Poorly Attended By Shoppers During Large Winter Storm In The Midst Of Massive Recession" pretty much sums it up.