Metro Vancouver Transit Discussion

[mr.x]

ugh....more nonsense from ivory tower scholars.


Anyhow, I'm actually surprised that the nominal capacity is so low for the Lines in peak hours yet it seems so busy.

Millennium Line (VCC‐Clark ‐ Columbia) 3,300
Surrey (King George‐Columbia) 7,700
= Combined Columbia ‐ Broadway 11,000
+ Broadway‐Waterfront short‐turns 1,000
= Combined Broadway ‐ Waterfront 12,000

[Metro-One]

A shuttle car between Columbia and lougheed would make sense at peak hours only if it is an express, meaning no stops in between.

[nname]

Originally Posted by lightning

yeah if anyone has any estimates of what the travel times might be for an underground SkyTrain, an at grade tram with right of way and TSP, and a BRT with right of way and TSP (assuming same origin, destination and stops as the 99B), that would be fantastic I would really be interested to know what the time savings of each system would be

I don't have the Broadway number, but this is for Evergreen Line in Coquitlam:
Bus (147, a bus that stop at a few stop along the way): 23~29min for 10km = 21~26km/h
B-Line (97, basically a bus that stop at every second stops): 31~39min for 12.5km = 19~24km/h
LRT (or you can call that tram, with ~30% grade separations): 24min for 11km = 28km/h
Skytrain (the number from the simulation): 14.5min for 11km = 46km/h

So Skytrain is almost twice as fast. Keep in mind that the corridor for the Evergreen line is much faster than Broadway (try to drive at 50~80km/h at Broadway...)

Assume the UBC Skytrain Line is 40km/h (which is slightly slower than Expo line), then the trip can be made in about 18~20min. Compare this to the current 99 B-Line, which takes 40min. The UBC Rapid Transit study made by CoV back in 2000 estimated LRT to UBC would take 41 minutes (vs. 39min for RapidBus).

Originally Posted by Metro-One

A shuttle car between Columbia and lougheed would make sense at peak hours only if it is an express, meaning no stops in between.

What's the point of an express when there's only 2 stops in between? You probably save 1~2min of the 8min trip for the shuttle.

[WBC]

Originally Posted by lightning

from the globe and mail

Yes, if was in academia I am sure that speed would not concern me as I would be working 2 hours a day and would actually not have to show up on time anywhere.

This reminds me of daily fantasies that can be found on Stephen Rees' blog. The dude is unemployed, uses transit once a month to visit some hippie gathering and then dispenses opinions on how we could solve all our problems with biking and trams. For people who actually work 8-10 hours a day and have families spending 1 hour each way in a bus or tram is not an attractive options. Nor is adding to the commute by having to shower, change and deal with the bikes after 1 hour bike ride.

So get us our damn SkyTrain to UBC!!!

[The_Henry_Man]

Originally Posted by DKaz

I suddenly have second thoughts about platform extensions. If it is technically feasible to achieve 30,000 PPPHD with the current system as is, why spend billions adding to add a mere 20% passenger capacity? And if we ever do need to transport more than 30,000 PPPHD, why not build a parallel commuter/express line? There'll likely be some expensive sections especially through New West and Broadway but for the most part the line would be at grade. The way I see it, skytrains are already packed by the time it even leaves Surrey Central Station, and half of them are heading downtown. An express train would shave around 10 minutes off their travel time and give them a much more comfortable ride. Stops at Surrey Central Station, New West, Metrotown, possibly Broadway, then terminate at Waterfront (WCE) Station... just a thought....

I think the future WCE line to Abbotsford would definitely help relieve that ridership pressure, especially if an interchange is constructed alongside the E-Line at Scott Rd.

[CLC]

Originally Posted by officedweller

In my experince the Portland Streetcar (tram) travels at a speed slower than the B-Line bus.

It is already good. In some of the real busy light rail system , such as Hong kong light rail (300,000-400,000 ridership per day) is in fact slower than bike

[Metro-One]

What's the point of an express when there's only 2 stops in between? You probably save 1~2min of the 8min trip for the shuttle.

Well it may be a little pre-mature but most expresses i have been on travel between hub to hub, and both of these stations would be hubs.

As for above Hong Kong's population is amazingly higher than Vancouver's, not to mention Hong Kong also has a massive metro system that carries many more passengers. The majority of LRT or tram trips are very short, while most people going to UBC or Broadway will be coming in from all over the place.

[CLC]

With travel times, trams would take more time to get to UBC than underground SkyTrain but, how much more time would SkyTrain save? and would it be worth the extra hundreds of millions dollars more that it would take to construct the SkyTrain?

just my example:
I don't need to go to UBC, but I always have to take a trip from Broadway/Commerical to Granville, it takes me 30 minutes (include wait time) for me on average.

When skytrain /subway is built , I would estimate no more than 12 minutes (include wait time)

Portland tram is slower than our b-line as some poster point out, Hong kong LRT with transit priority and billions of dollars improvement over years is still slower than bus options or even bike on some stretch. I cannot believe tramway/light rail on broadway would be any difference.

[deasine]

Originally Posted by officedweller

Portland bought self-propelled diesel LRT cars from Colorado Railcar and is paying for them bigtime - $17 M for the trains and $5.5 M to pump up the failing supplier.

http://www.oregonlive.com/special/index.ssf/2008/12/trimet.html

I don't think I would call them LRTs... more like DLRs. They are actually used for their upcoming commuter rail line.

[SpongeG]

yeah thats sort of like our west coast express service

as for the MAx - its pretty fast when its on its own - when it gets into downtown it is slow but along the freeway it is quite fast

its not bad at all

the streetcar is nice too - better than a bus anyway

[ssiguy]

SkyTrain does make sence to some degree if they hook it up properly with the MLine so it has no transfers from Coq to UBC. Its expensive but thanks to Clark we are stuck with it. The MLine should never have been SkyTrain but LRT or even Monorail.
The thing that scares me is that Bombardier seems to be really pushing SkyTrain tech but to no avail. If 20 or more years when Toronto has closed its SRT and Detroit's has died a slow death, I'm afraid of what will happen if Bomardier considers it not worth the expense as it is yesterdays technology and decide to scrape ALRT. Vancouver will be in a real pickle.

The gov't says it wants a "skytrain-like" technology but as far as I know it is the only manufacturer. There are some linear-inductions but they are subways and high-speed which is complitly uncompatable. Either way, the cars are going to cost a fortune and Vancouver will have no option but to pay it. that's the main problem with proprietry technology.

[fever]

Portland's LRT is really slow downtown, and not that fast otherwise. The streetcar's a little faster than walking but way slower than biking.

Portland's commuter rail train problem looks to be a result of protectionism and using a ROW shared with freight. They were obligated to purchase DMUs from a US supplier if at all possible, but there was apparently only one certified US manufacturer of DMUs that could operate on tracks also used by freight trains. (The trains are also really ugly.)

[Metro-One]

I personally have never had a problem with skytrain, and doesn't Bangkok have ALRT along with cities in China? I think it is a good system, much better than LRT and especially better than Monorail, which is better suited for short tourist tracks in Disneyland and airport people movers. As i have stated before people who are not scholars in train technology genially like it, i have many friends from Europe and Asia who enjoy skytrain and think it is a good and clean "metro" system with great frequency.

Also why can't our operation and maintenance center be able to construct our own mark 2 cars? Of course it would be a 1 or 2 at a time process but you think it would be possible to have a small assembly yard as part of a new OMC. Why do we always have to do things in huge jumps? Why not add a few more cars annually? It is not like skytrain has fixed schedules and it would throw the entire transit schedule out of order.

Thank you Clark for making M-line a true transit line instead of a joke, that way the evergreen line will be skytrain as well and we have a better chance (an ace in the hole) for the UBC extension being skytrain instead of a over glorified bus. As i have said before, LRT has its place in the transit system, but not as main lines. For many, such as myself, to get us out of cars we need good frequencies and speed to make it worth while, if i am going to be stuck in traffic and stopping every 100 meters in an LRT i would rather be driving where i can listen to my stereo and have trunk space to place my bag etc...

With respect to LRT being fast on the freeway stretch on Portland, i agree with that simply because there are no stops and it is given its own ROW, but there will be no grade separation or true ROW down Broadway, instead it will be a slow ride with many stops, which is perfect for someone commuting only a block or two to go to the local market, but that is a very small fraction of commuters in such a corridor.

[ssiguy]

The thing that really pissed me off is the comparison Translink made between SkyTrain and LRT. When comparing speeds thew had the LRT with a lot more stops and then claiming LRT was slower.
If they did a fair ccompariosn and still wanted SkyTrain then fine but don't scew the numbers.

[Metro-One]

I have ridden on many LRTs that are not grade separate or have ROW, and they are really really slow. Calgary's C-train is much different, as is Edmonton's LRT because they, for the most part, unlike the proposed UBC LRT, are grade separated and have their own rail bed corridors separate from vehicle traffic. The UBC corridor will be at grade on the street with traffic for a looooong way, not a block or two, but a looooooooong way, so i think it is very fair to compare it to other such similar street cars/LRT that are very slow.

PS - Most cities that are currently building LRT systems already have well established and extensive subway/heavy rail systems. Also Portland's LRT system currently has less than 50 000 riders a day, and the new line is only expected to increase the numbers by 15 000. To me that screams "Build ALRT down Broadway!!!!! LRT is only good for small surface commutes." For example downtown Vancouver is perfect for LRT, Robson street, Denman and Granville, perfect! Because downtown already have ALRT below grade for the longer distances.

I support LRT in Surrey, but only if it is build with its own rail corridor and grade separated in the urban core areas.

[ssiguy]

The benefit of LRT is that it can also travel atgrade. It should definatly been tunneled under Broadway til Alma/Dunbar but after that atgrade would be just as fast. There is very little traffic past that point and would save a few hundred million which should go immediatly to Hastings.
Ive said it before but....................it has to be SkyTrain now but it does NOT need to go all the way to UBC, Alma would be fine. That section of Broadway has almost no stop lights. It only has one BLine stop after Alma all the way to UBC which tells you the relativly light ridership aftrer that. BLine with even higher frequency would do nicely. Save that cool half/billion and put it to wear the money would be far better spent...........Hastings.
Within one block of Hastins EAST of main are 6 regular routes including the very busy Victoria and soon BLine. It also has far more car traffic slowing things down even further. UBC?.........yes someday but put the money were it is needed most and that's Hastings.

[Metro-One]

Well I would support building skytrain to Alma and then stopping it there and have a B-line take over for the time being, with the future capability of being able to expand skytrain the full distance in the future. We need the M-Line and the C-Line to overlap and have a hub, it is a must!

[Spork]

Speaking of the conversion of the 135 to a B-Line (95? 96?). Anybody have any idea when this will be made? I have been hearing about this for about 2 years now, and still nothing.

[fever]

What about the grade west of Alma? If you mean skytrain to Alma then more B-Lines, I agree it could be phased that way and a decision could be made later on an extension to UBC.

I'm not so sure about Hastings. It seems like the type of route a B-line (or LRT) would belong on. Local routes could feed the B-line (or LRT) instead of going all the way downtown.

[SpongeG]

i liked riding the muni in san francisco - slow as it was it was a good way to travel

same with portland - it may be slow but its good and gets you where you wanna go

people need to slow down a little more - thats not such a bad thing