The Retail Thread

[IHEARTPDX]

Wasn't there talk of some entity buying those pioneer place and building a tower in its place?
I would love to have all that retail at street level spread out across downtown...yes i know it's impossible at the moment but i would love to see that any way...some of the massive parking structures downtown could be replaced with towers and proper retail at its base...and if the city would tax surface parking lots so that it's more profitable to build on them than to leave them as parking lots we could see an adequate amount of retail, office, and housing space in the downtown core replace the mall. On that note...i wouldn't mind seeing Lloyd center go bye bye as well...the city could convert that space to greenspace with a new museum possibly.

[nobody]

Pie in the sky but I would love to see those things as well.

[65MAX]

Lloyd Center isn't going anywhere anytime soon, and I don't think the mall is bad. I'm not sure why you would want to replace perfectly good retail space with another park anyway. What they CAN do though is have storefront retail along the entire Multnomah Ave (south) side so that the mall has a better relationship to Holladay Park and the neighborhood in general. It doesn't have to be so fortress-ey.

Regarding Pioneer Place, the rotunda block (with the theaters on top) was designed to support a tower above it at some point in the future, if they wanted to add on later. There's no need to tear it down. Again, I'm not sure why you would want to tear out perfectly good retail space.

[PacificNW]

Yup, it is the rotunda/theater block that was designed so that a tower could be incorporated at a later date. I, too, question the need to tear down these malls. I have always thought both Lloyd and Pioneer Place could redesign their street level stores so that they had sidewalk entrances.

[IHEARTPDX]

I just don't like malls...I think part of the vibrancy of city life is having retail at street level, not concentrated in a mall. There are also tons of restrictions on what type of store you could open in a mall, so it pretty much excludes smaller, new businesses. If all of those retailers in the mall were at street level and spread out within a 10 block area, there would be opportunity for myriad small, local businesses to open in and around those bigger stores, more people on the street, more opportunities for restaurants to open up near these retailers and a chance at having a more vibrant CBD.

[llamaorama]

You know multi-level urban malls in downtown settings can fail easily. They are vulnerable to high vacancies on the upper levels when shoppers don't bother going to those levels. With enough competition from street-level shops people won't even set foot in the door anymore. Without external visibility the rents will drop

I think focusing public effort on improving the street experience takes priority, let the retail free market sort itself out.

[65MAX]

Malls are not all bad. They provide the variety and critical mass of retail that a lot of people want when they go shopping. As long as they are accessible by mass transit and integrate well into their surrounding neighborhoods, I see nothing wrong with them.

I think Pioneer Place is a vital part of downtown's retail environment. Remember, a lot of the stores there open right onto the sidewalks, they're not walled off from the rest of downtown.

[bvpcvm]

Originally Posted by 65MAX

Remember, a lot of the stores there open right onto the sidewalks, they're not walled off from the rest of downtown.

they do? i can't think of a single one.

i have to agree with IHEARTPDX, we'd be better off with retail on the street. the one advantage of the mall is the chance to escape the rain on occasion.

[zilfondel]

I think that Pioneer Place Mall is a special example... and very carefully designed. However, they should have allowed the stores to open onto the sidewalk and not wall it off like they did. However, the design would not work if the blocks were larger, like the Salem Center Mall in Salem, which completely killed off all street activity.

Has anyone ever checked out those old courtyard mall historic buildings downtown? Some of them pack in some very interesting little shops that NOBODY even knows exist! Kind of sad, really... they used to be very popular back at the beginning of Portland's history. However, there are maybe 1/5 the number of people downtown than there used to be, so...

We just don't have the activity and density to support it all, I believe. We need a lot more people downtown!

[zilfondel]

Lloyd Center, on the other hand, needs a lot of help. It just kills off that whole section of the city.. with that terrible streetwall parking garage.

I bet the architects thought they were being clever, too, by having a colonnade along the street. But man oh man, does it ever make it difficult to find the entrance (!!!!) and kill off any opportunity for street activity.

Needs a billion-dollar overhaul, thats, for sure. And I think its gonna be a few years before thats remotely possible...

[65MAX]

Originally Posted by bvpcvm

they do? i can't think of a single one.

Well, off the top of my head....

Tiffany
Macaroni Grill
Saks (the women's store)
the other Saks (the men's store)
Louis Vuitton
Coach
J Jill
the entire food court

I believe there are a couple more PP stores that open directly onto the sidewalk, but just those few are pretty damn good. There is no way you can convince me that Pioneer Place is "walled off" from the rest of downtown.

It might help to think of it as one very large department store. It just has a wider selection of brands than Macy's or Nordstrom.

[Okstate]

^ Even with that (unimpressive) list... Wa. Square STILL has more storefront entrances. I would hardly consider Tiffany, Mac Grill, or Saks to be in the same league as the actual stores in the "mall". What restaurant in the food court has direct access? All i can think of is the entrance where you descend an escalator...which is even less "in your face" from the street than that of the other stores.

[bvpcvm]

^ no kidding, the food court doesn't open up onto the street! as okstate said, tiffany/macaroni grill and saks, while technically part of the whole development, aren't located in the mall to begin with. others? i'm drawing a blank on coach, but j. jill - yes, it has an entrance, but you enter into the back of the store. the store faces the mall. you can tell that they were stuck with an entrance and couldn't close it off entirely, but definitely wanted to. no, pioneer place is definitely walled off from the city.

[downtownpdx]

I agree it would be ideal to open up some of the storefronts of Pioneer Place -- it feels especially walled-off in the rotunda block on the east side.

But the idea of a mall is ok with me just because I think it serves the purpose of critical mass. Grouping dozens of retailers together on a couple blocks draws people to the center of downtown, who walk the streets and bring vitality to the surrounding area.

I have a hard time imagining, (as much as I would like to see this), all the shops of Pioneer Place spread out across downtown. Much of the existing streetside retail probably exists simply because of the draw of Pioneer Place. It acts like kind of an anchor, and then the spill-over activity makes the nearby streets more attractive. ...I wonder who'll move into the former Shoe Pavilion space? It's a weird spot, huge and mostly underground.

[PacificNW]

↑ Maybe one of the national "theme" cafe's like the "Rainforest Cafe".....Food isn't great but it does bring in the crowds and it doesn't need storefront windows for people and their kids to find it.......

[65MAX]

Originally Posted by Okstate

^ Even with that (unimpressive) list... Wa. Square STILL has more storefront entrances. I would hardly consider Tiffany, Mac Grill, or Saks to be in the same league as the actual stores in the "mall". What restaurant in the food court has direct access? All i can think of is the entrance where you descend an escalator...which is even less "in your face" from the street than that of the other stores.

Wasn't trying to impress anyone. BVPCVM couldn't think of a single store that opened onto the sidewalk. I was just listing the ones that do. And yes, Tiffany and MacGrill, while part of Pioneer Place, aren't directly connected to the mall, but both Saks most definitely are. Also, the sidewalk entrance to the food court at Fifth and Taylor is used by thousands of people every day (including myself). I'm not sure about "in your face", but it's absolutely well-designed and heavily used.

[Okstate]

I hope its OK if I consider that list unimpressive no matter your intention upon posting the info.

[downtownpdx]

Originally Posted by PacificNW

↑ Maybe one of the national "theme" cafe's like the "Rainforest Cafe".....Food isn't great but it does bring in the crowds and it doesn't need storefront windows for people and their kids to find it.......

Right -- or a Cheesecake Factory or something? If it's gonna be a chain it might as well draw the crowds. I don't think Shoe Pavilion really hit the mark in that category.

I like Nordstrom Rack's new(ish) digs but I miss the old location a bit, just b/c now that corner lacks the intensity it once had. The Rack pulls in a ton of people, and there was also an adjacent high-end shoe store ... then they just tore out the wall, and made it into one huge space that now sits empty. I know something will move in before too long, but I really like a bunch of smaller retail spaces over the huge ones that take up so much street frontage when they're vacant.

The new Mercantile shop at Alder and Park, as attractive as it is, did the same thing -- tore out a couple retail spots to make room for a big one. Just diminishes the character and variety of downtown's streetscape a bit, I think, but I realize many retailers need larger spaces to be viable.

BTW what the hell is keeping H&M from moving in, (despite the 🞵🞵🞵🞵 economy?) There are several perfectly good spots waiting for them...

[bvpcvm]

rainforest cafe... i sincerely hope you're kidding. same goes for cheesecake factory. the faux-stucco and robotic service are the last thing i want to see downtown.

on the other hand - i guess this is an instance of "my fascist retail chain is cooler than yours" - i'd love to see H&M in town. after several visits to H&M in SFO i've found myself regularly checking their facebook page for an announcement of a store here. it can't be long - there are already 3 in seattle...

[downtownpdx]

^^^ I agree, I wouldn't be too excited about either of those in Portland... just saying if it's gonna be a chain it oughta be something that draws foot traffic. But I honestly don't wanna see a Las-Vegasization of downtown.

Not to beat a dead horse, but seriously why THREE H&M's in Seattle and not one here??? I know of the Southcenter and downtown stores, but not the third. I have a feeling they would do ok here.