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  #741  
Old Posted Nov 27, 2008, 2:45 PM
lrt's friend lrt's friend is offline
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Remember the E-W route? Well it was to parallel the existing tracks from Kanata to Orleans. Now, the exact same route would have too low ridership, for even a commuter train.
How do we know that this is true? It was going to connect the Kanata Business Park with the Queensway Carleton Hospital, Algonquin College, a number of business parks, and growing parts of Orleans, and provide cross connections with all other major transit routes and follow a substantially different route than the existing Transitways. You know, depending on the route chosen, I could have used it daily and think about all the intensification possibilities there would have been. LRT does not have to run every 2 minutes using 4 car trains to constitute a success. This same argument was used about the O-Train before it was built. There would not be enough ridership. Give me a break!
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  #742  
Old Posted Nov 27, 2008, 2:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Franky View Post
The Doucet-Leadman plan doesn't call for streetcars (20 km/h average) it calls for LRT (35 km/h average). You may still be right about ridership, though somehow I think the Carling line and even the S-E transitway to Southkeys would be well used. No numbers to back this up of course, though that's another problem with the TMP "boondoggle".

If you are right, then the only option left is Double-Deck Hybrid buses and a tunnel. (Or Personal Automated Transit )
Yes, I'm all for the LRT on Carling too, and LRT on Byron also. The numbers were there for the S-E Transitway compared to the O-Train conversion.
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  #743  
Old Posted Nov 27, 2008, 2:50 PM
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Originally Posted by lrt's friend View Post
How do we know that this is true? It was going to connect the Kanata Business Park with the Queensway Carleton Hospital, Algonquin College, a number of business parks, and growing parts of Orleans, and provide cross connections with all other major transit routes and follow a substantially different route than the existing Transitways. You know, depending on the route chosen, I could have used it daily and think about all the intensification possibilities there would have been. LRT does not have to run every 2 minutes using 4 car trains to constitute a success. This same argument was used about the O-Train before it was built. There would not be enough ridership. Give me a break!
You're talking about TOD on a heavy rail route, this is completely different. This was in the TMP, so yeah it was true. And no, I won't give you a break. For LRT to be a success, it must at least offer faster speeds and/or lower costs than BRT, which that route didn't bring. The Spadina LRT in Toronto could be considered a failure, and many transit fans considered it as such.

There is still much TOD to do on the Transitway. BRT didn't help.
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  #744  
Old Posted Nov 27, 2008, 2:57 PM
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For LRT to be a success, it must at least offer faster speeds and/or lower costs than BRT, which that route didn't bring.
How can you make that comparison when BRT is simply not feasible on that corridor or anything close to it?
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  #745  
Old Posted Nov 27, 2008, 2:59 PM
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I find it really disappointing that they don't debate the road part separately. $2.1 billion is an eye-popping number for just road expansions. Even though they say we will concentrate more on transit then roads, that's still way too much for road expansion projects. In fact, there were more road expansion projects added to the TMP then the previous one in 2003 even though a less faster growth in the update. I'm sure some of that could be trimmed (my preference by at-least half) as unnecessary and useless and move it to the transit part.

Groundbreaking for rail will be after 2013 from what i've heard yesterday so the economic crisis will be long gone by then and the feds will likely be back in huge surplus modes (unless they are doing tons of unnecessary spending like the war and the icebreaker in the north) so they would afford to contribute more to the plan as does the province. Also, there will be certainly be at least one more recession before 2031 after this one (when official).

That would be ridiculous to zap the plan just because of this year's global economic problem especially if they only plan to start the rail part and tunnel in 2013-2015. I'm going to bet there will be a strong growth in 2013-2015 and big surpluses again federally.
It is obvious that many city councillors are tired of this debate and want to push through the whole package tomorrow and be done with it.
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  #746  
Old Posted Nov 27, 2008, 3:26 PM
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One thing that has not been discussed is the 14 to 10 vote yesterday to do an EA on the SE Transitway conversion to LRT.

What is interesting is the vote breakdown and how the east and west end councillors voted as a block against the councillors in centretown and the southend.

Although, there is merit in this idea, the value of the Baseline BRT becomes more limited as the possibility of a Hurdman connection is cut off.
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  #747  
Old Posted Nov 27, 2008, 4:25 PM
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Originally Posted by lrt's friend View Post
One thing that has not been discussed is the 14 to 10 vote yesterday to do an EA on the SE Transitway conversion to LRT.

What is interesting is the vote breakdown and how the east and west end councillors voted as a block against the councillors in centretown and the southend.

Although, there is merit in this idea, the value of the Baseline BRT becomes more limited as the possibility of a Hurdman connection is cut off.
Oh?! Who voted for what? At least they're open to the idea. And it could keep the O-Train open for a while. (and use electrification).
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  #748  
Old Posted Nov 27, 2008, 4:26 PM
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Originally Posted by lrt's friend View Post
How can you make that comparison when BRT is simply not feasible on that corridor or anything close to it?
Of course it is, that's exactly what they're doing on the Québec side for the Rapibus.
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  #749  
Old Posted Nov 27, 2008, 4:37 PM
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Of course it is, that's exactly what they're doing on the Québec side for the Rapibus.
Fair enough, but that alternative has never been considered either and it assumes that the ROW is wide enough. I would perfectly happy with a BRT alternative if rail is too expensive. Surely, some relatively inexpensive use of existing track is possible as well.
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  #750  
Old Posted Nov 27, 2008, 4:53 PM
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You will never be able to build a tunnel that long for 500M$. The cost estimates you guys came up with are horrendously simplified.
The numbers are based on the "Billion Dollar Boondoggle". $780M for the tunnel with 3 stations. See page 139 of "Transportation Master Plan Infrastructure Requirement Study"
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You can't force people to take an interest in an infrastructure project...
And you can't say people agree when they haven't voiced an opinion.
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Originally Posted by Deez View Post

Public comments were not limited to open house attendees, there were hundreds more submitted by phone, email, and letter. I should know because I read them all.
I may have both attended and written letters. How many hundreds of different people e-mailed?
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Originally Posted by Deez View Post

When are the numbers going to warrant a metro system in your opinion? Everybody has a different opinion...Suzie has shown that she thinks it's feasible to continue operating surface routes, while djeffrey thinks the City is ready for a metro now.
Based on the numbers given, Double-decker buses with priority and off-board ticketing etc... would work at grade, so obviously it would work better in a tunnel - less stops and more time needed to access though, but no slowdowns. I think the cost of a metro is premature and according to a McCormick guy, DT should never excess 22,000 per direction because of building height limits in the DT area which really means a metro will never be needed. If he's wrong, a metro would certainly solve the problem.
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  #751  
Old Posted Nov 27, 2008, 5:11 PM
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Nothing rapid about transit

Wheels on city council's bus go round and round ... and go nowhere fast
By SUSAN SHERRING


A train wreck.

That was the description of one seasoned city hall observer watching from the gallery yesterday.

Healthy cynicism or a bang-on assessment?

After a marathon 14-hour committee meeting last week on the future of the city's transportation master plan, council as a whole got back at it yesterday.

But after a day's worth of questions and answers, they barely made a dent in the work that needs to be done.

The meeting will reconvene tomorrow -- and they should keep Saturday open.

What's the problem?

Well, there are 23 councillors and one mayor, and it seems clear the plan satisfies none of them completely.

That's not so surprising. But in fact, the plan doesn't come close to completely satisfying a bunch of them.

And there's still that nagging doubt lingering in the room -- can taxpayers really afford the proposed system?

Somehow, out of the blue, the $1.7-billion price tag for the first phase of the light-rail proposal grew to $2.1 billion -- and there wasn't a blink of an eye.

The price difference is taking into account inflation -- the estimated cost to build in the years ahead.

But somehow, it's not going to cost taxpayers any more money on their tax bill.

How the heck does that work?

Well, according to city treasurer Marian Similuk, the city's $700-million share of the project will be paid with borrowed money over a 30-year period.

(Perhaps the city should be buying our houses.)

Will the feds and the province pony up? No one knows for sure, though that leads to a couple of other interesting questions.

QUESTIONABLE TIMING

The timing of the letter from provincial Municipal Affairs Minister Jim Watson can only be described as questionable. But then, so too are the comments from federal Infrastructure Minister John Baird.

Baird, of course, will always go down as a footnote in the history of light rail, having pulled federal funding on the original north-south LRT plan just before the 2006 municipal election. Now it seems Baird is suggesting the feds have got money to spare. Wouldn't he like to see the plan first?

Speaking of comments from the gallery, one staffer suggested if the meeting dragged on much longer, instead of light rail, the city could investigate anti-matter transportation, maybe bring along Capt. Kirk and the gang.

Reporters jokingly tried to pay off the technicians watching the five minutes allowed for councillors' questions, offering to pay them to speed up the clock.

There are more than three dozen motions on the agenda, and yesterday, they only got to a few.

One, from Knoxdale-Merivale Coun. Gord Hunter, was deemed a "nasty little motion" by River Coun. Maria McRae -- just to give you an idea of the calibre of the debate.

Capital Coun. Clive Doucet wasn't about to let a long and dreadfully boring meeting deter him from talking.

"I've got five crummy minutes," Doucet complained.

It would be nice to argue in favour of public debate, but really, are councillors actually learning anything?

IT'S A MYSTERY

It would seem not, with Doucet himself describing many of the responses from staff as "mystery answers."

You have to know there's something wrong with a meeting when Bay Coun. Alex Cullen suggests there's no reason for more questions or debate, and Innes Coun. Rainer Bloess agrees with him.

Gloucester-Southgate Coun. Diane Deans wondered what was going on.

"What did you want to hide?" she asked.

Interesting question. No good answer.

As it turns out, yesterday's meeting was the last for outgoing city clerk Pierre Page, which didn't go unnoticed by Mayor Larry O'Brien and council, who gave him a standing ovation and a great party.

"I'm glad we've made this a memorable day for you," O'Brien quipped at the end of yesterday's meeting.

Memorable?

Unfortunately, just like so many other council meetings, it was long, confusing and unproductive.
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Transit debate has lost its way

Randall Denley
The Ottawa Citizen


Thursday, November 27, 2008


City of Ottawa staff have a big plan to expand transit dramatically by 2031, but the question is, will city councillors still be debating it then? Judging by their inclination to spend entire days asking questions that have already been answered, the transit debate could easily stretch into 2031, if not to infinity.

Councillors' big new theme yesterday was affordability. This would have been a good point in any of the last four or five years, because nothing has changed. It's not exactly a news flash that the transit project is expensive and will increase the city's debt. Fortunately, federal and provincial gas tax money and development charges will cover most of that debt over time. This was always a base assumption in considering transit expansion. Without city ability to spend, there would be no project.

City treasurer Marian Simulik distributed a one-page explanation of where the money will come from for the city's share of the $1.7-billion first phase of the project. It's so simple that even Municipal Affairs Minister Jim Watson will be able to understand it.

The Ottawa West-Nepean MPP sent a letter to Mayor Larry O'Brien this week, expressing concern about affordability and the availability of federal money. It was pretty rich. The federal side has made it clear that $400 million will be available. The province has only offered half that and the money is not actually booked in any budget. Ask provincial officials where it will come from and they tell you it's a promise.

In Watson's perfect world, councillors would have fumbled the transit plan and the cash-strapped provincial government wouldn't have had to pay anything. This would be the same provincial government, by the way, that is paying two-thirds of the cost of transit expansions in the Greater Toronto Area. The province has promised $11.5 billion there.

Despite the hours of tortuous and inconclusive debate yesterday, there is really nothing complicated about what's in front of councillors. They have just lost the thread of the story.

What they are being asked to approve this week is a plan. City staff will then take the plan to the federal and provincial governments seeking a firm commitment for money. If the money isn't adequate, councillors will have to revisit the issue. Maybe they should book a month for discussion now, just in case.

The $1.7-billion price tag is making some councillors look back fondly at the city's aborted plan to send rail from Barrhaven to downtown. What a bargain that was, they say now, at a mere $900 million. Some bargain. The federal and provincial governments were only putting in $200 million each. The city's $500-million share was way out of proportion to the money contributed by the other governments and it would have left the city without enough money to pay its share of subsequent phases of the transit plan.

Worse, the old plan provided rail on the surface downtown, a "solution" that even its supporters admitted would last only eight to 10 years before the volume of trains, cars and buses overloaded the downtown again. By the time the surface rail was in place, it would have been just about time to start work on the tunnel to replace it.

Some councillors also seem to forget that the old rail plan was part of a much larger scheme, as is the new one. The old transit plan would have spent $4.4 billion on buses and rail, but it wouldn't have solved the transit congestion problem downtown or done anything meaningful to shift the major east and west commutes to rail. Instead, it would have put the expensive new rail in secondary transit corridors with limited ridership.

If councillors want to get cold feet about transit spending now, there is one good reason to do it, but it's not because there is anything wrong with the staff plan. To get to the real problem, they need to go back to the most fundamental question, the one that has never been properly asked. Why do we need to bring so many people downtown to work every day?

Telecommuting and relocating some federal office buildings to the suburbs would reduce and spread out the commute. Instead, the federal government will spend hundreds of millions of dollars on transit. The government is locked on the idea that transit is a good way to move people without really thinking enough about why the people are being moved in the first place.

Transit and infrastructure are popular with governments eager to do something in tough economic times, but if the transit plan is simply intended to create jobs and build something ministers can have their pictures taken in front of, I would suggest that we replace it with a series of Egyptian-style pyramids. These would create construction-sector jobs and boost tourism. Egypt's pyramids are so dusty and far away, you know. Best of all, we could bury a politician under each one.

Contact Randall Denley at 596-3756 or by e-mail,

[email protected]

© The Ottawa Citizen 2008
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Watson's sober second thoughts

The Ottawa Citizen


Thursday, November 27, 2008


It is disconcerting that as late as the day before the final rail debate was to occur at Ottawa City Council, the former mayor of Ottawa who is now the current provincial minister of municipal affairs had doubts about funding the $1.7-billion project.

Jim Watson's Nov. 25 letter to Mayor Larry O'Brien was enough to send shudders down taxpayers' spines. Mr. Watson inquired about:

- whether land acquisition and utilities had been considering in costing the project;

- whether the city could cover capital and operating costs of the project;

- if potential cost increases had been taken into account;

- if the project could be phased in such a way as to meet funding available from the other levels of government;

- what funding was available from the federal government;

- if federal funding might jeopardize other money from the federal government concerning infrastructure;

- what back-up plan the city had in case expected funding from the senior levels of government is not available.

These are not questions a senior minister should be unclear about the day before the final debate is about to occur. That leads one to believe that the provincial government has not been adequately sold on this project and raises questions about just how thorough this plan is. Has this been rushed to meet some arbitrary deadline? Has all the homework been done? Mr. Watson's comments cause taxpayers to wonder if this plan is much more than lines on a map.

Especially worrisome is the amount of money involved. A sum in the neighbourhood of $1.7 billion for the first phase is not something to be wrong about. This is hard-earned money by Ottawans who are worried, like other people in other places, about the economic future in the face of a financial downturn.

Mr. Watson mentions the "challenging economic time" in his letter to Mr. O'Brien, making one wonder if the province is worried about the amount of revenue it will receive during this uncertain period. Or perhaps the province is concerned about the amount it might have to spend to revive the troubled Ontario manufacturing sector.

Mr. Watson has voiced his views in a dramatic way -- he will surely be accused of political grandstanding -- but it's hard not to share his frustration. He's right to remind council that provincial officials will need to vet the plan on ridership, costing and environmental impact. The minister has also pointed out that the province is only in for $200 million on a $1.7-billion scheme, which puts considerable pressure on city finances.

One suspects that Mr. Watson has expressed what many taxpayers are thinking.

© The Ottawa Citizen 2008
Not exactly glowing press on the current council transit debate.
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  #752  
Old Posted Nov 27, 2008, 5:24 PM
lrt's friend lrt's friend is offline
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Oh?! Who voted for what? At least they're open to the idea. And it could keep the O-Train open for a while. (and use electrification).
It is was the east and west end councillors who voted to do this. The O-Train will be relegated to secondary status which means that the O-Train will likely never be extended or electrified.
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  #753  
Old Posted Nov 27, 2008, 5:26 PM
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Originally Posted by lrt's friend View Post
Not exactly glowing press on the current council transit debate.
And they are being kind. Councillors don't even listen to one another. Councillors don't have the facts straight. Staff sometimes gives inaccurate, incomplete or wrong answers. Many of them should be fired on the spot.
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  #754  
Old Posted Nov 27, 2008, 5:38 PM
Richard Eade Richard Eade is offline
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Originally Posted by lrt's friend View Post
One thing that has not been discussed is the 14 to 10 vote yesterday to do an EA on the SE Transitway conversion to LRT.

What is interesting is the vote breakdown and how the east and west end councillors voted as a block against the councillors in centretown and the southend.

Although, there is merit in this idea, the value of the Baseline BRT becomes more limited as the possibility of a Hurdman connection is cut off.
How so? The Baseline BRT will use Data Centre Road to travel to/from Billings Bridge so the section from Baseline to Billings isn't affected.

Since the Baseline BRT is only Transit Priority, why not simply make Riverside a Transit Priority route as well and the problem is solved.

Honestly, people need to start to find ways to enable new ideas instead of dismissing them because they aren't what was.

If the trains of the S-E LRT go directly downtown, how many buses are still going to be needed along that stretch? Those headed downtown will probably transfer at Billings.

If the S-E Transitway is converted to rail, then the Cumberland Corridor could be laid as rail, running along the Browning Corridor and either up to Hurdman or down to Billings Bridge.

With the S-E LRT, there would be a substancial construction saving (~ $100M) and the south leg of the O-Train (south of Confederation) could be terminated removing the redundant link. This would cause only 500 people to transfer (onto the O-Train north) during the peak morning hour instead of 2,400 people to the S-E Transitway.

I can hear it now "But what about the TOD that was to happen over the converted O-Train?" Fine; convert the O-Train. At $5M/Km to electrify the 5 Km from Confederation to Bayview plus $5M each for three eLRVs, the conversion of the O-Train from Diesel to electric single rail, 15 minute service would only cost $40M. Then you could build over it. 15 minute service will be enough for the estimated 2031 peak use by 500 people per hour.
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  #755  
Old Posted Nov 27, 2008, 5:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Cre47 View Post
I find it really disappointing that they don't debate the road part separately. $2.1 billion is an eye-popping number for just road expansions. Even though they say we will concentrate more on transit then roads, that's still way too much for road expansion projects. In fact, there were more road expansion projects added to the TMP then the previous one in 2003 even though a less faster growth in the update. I'm sure some of that could be trimmed (my preference by at-least half) as unnecessary and useless and move it to the transit part.
.
Yes it is quite unfortunate... of course some roads are necessary for new subdivisions etc, but is 6 laning Hunt Club, widening Prince of Wales, and connecting hunt club and innes through the Greenbelt really necessary? Will it actually solve road congestion or just move it to another bottleneck (e.g. PoW will still be 2 lanes north of fisher) and increase our dependence on automobiles?

Also, the $2.1 billion doesn't include the hundreds of millions the province will be spending on highway widenings. These highways aren't for intercity travel, they are for commuter traffic. To really compare road/transit spending I think those highway numbers should also be factored in.
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  #756  
Old Posted Nov 27, 2008, 5:59 PM
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Yes it is quite unfortunate... of course some roads are necessary for new subdivisions etc, but is 6 laning Hunt Club, widening Prince of Wales, and connecting hunt club and innes through the Greenbelt really necessary? Will it actually solve road congestion or just move it to another bottleneck (e.g. PoW will still be 2 lanes north of fisher) and increase our dependence on automobiles?

Also, the $2.1 billion doesn't include the hundreds of millions the province will be spending on highway widenings. These highways aren't for intercity travel, they are for commuter traffic. To really compare road/transit spending I think those highway numbers should also be factored in.
Don't forget the incredibly expensive Alta Vista Corridor (AVTC) which will dump traffic into the already congested city core - not helpful.

Better alternative to Browning (underpass "U" and overpass "O" already exist):
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  #757  
Old Posted Nov 27, 2008, 6:27 PM
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I can hear it now "But what about the TOD that was to happen over the converted O-Train?" Fine; convert the O-Train. At $5M/Km to electrify the 5 Km from Confederation to Bayview plus $5M each for three eLRVs, the conversion of the O-Train from Diesel to electric single rail, 15 minute service would only cost $40M. Then you could build over it. 15 minute service will be enough for the estimated 2031 peak use by 500 people per hour.
Exactly. This is why I'm happy council agreed to study that segment.
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  #758  
Old Posted Nov 27, 2008, 6:33 PM
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How so? The Baseline BRT will use Data Centre Road to travel to/from Billings Bridge so the section from Baseline to Billings isn't affected.

Since the Baseline BRT is only Transit Priority, why not simply make Riverside a Transit Priority route as well and the problem is solved.

Honestly, people need to start to find ways to enable new ideas instead of dismissing them because they aren't what was.

If the trains of the S-E LRT go directly downtown, how many buses are still going to be needed along that stretch? Those headed downtown will probably transfer at Billings.

If the S-E Transitway is converted to rail, then the Cumberland Corridor could be laid as rail, running along the Browning Corridor and either up to Hurdman or down to Billings Bridge.

With the S-E LRT, there would be a substancial construction saving (~ $100M) and the south leg of the O-Train (south of Confederation) could be terminated removing the redundant link. This would cause only 500 people to transfer (onto the O-Train north) during the peak morning hour instead of 2,400 people to the S-E Transitway.

I can hear it now "But what about the TOD that was to happen over the converted O-Train?" Fine; convert the O-Train. At $5M/Km to electrify the 5 Km from Confederation to Bayview plus $5M each for three eLRVs, the conversion of the O-Train from Diesel to electric single rail, 15 minute service would only cost $40M. Then you could build over it. 15 minute service will be enough for the estimated 2031 peak use by 500 people per hour.
First of all, I said there was some merit to the idea. Correct? I did not dismiss it. What I was particularly bringing up was the vote, which again reflects a regional divide on council, and I believe we need to develop a better consensus on council in developing our transit plan. This decision was being made at the last minute, without considering the wishes of the affected wards and their councillors. This is why the comment was made that it was 'a nasty little motion'. This is not a good way to develop consensus, and sadly, if this was handled better, it may have been possible to bring those councillors on side. This sets us up for further divide in the future.


Second, I think it is reasonable to ask questions. There will be some impact on the Baseline BRT, and your solution does have some costs involved and those costs will depend on the degree of transit priority involved. After all, many million are slated for the Baseline BRT. We cannot look at the Transitway savings in a vacuum. Also, I have already suggested the electrification of the O-Train as an alternative and suggested that it be connected to the rest of the network, so that we could take full advantage of possible train routing. This is bound to increase ridership far beyond the present 500/hour.

Nevertheless, none of this was considered when this motion was made and voted on. It is critical that these extra considerations be included so the best long-term decision is made. That, very well, may end up being the conversion of the Transitway, but it better be part of overall better plan and not in isolation. I have no reason to feel confident about that.

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and the south leg of the O-Train (south of Confederation) could be terminated removing the redundant link.
Why do you keep bringing this up? A north-south route that doesn't serve the south has no value. The infrastructure already exists, so why not use it? If this were to occur, close the O-Train, as ridership will simply dry up. There is absolutely no need to create unnecessary transfers when the cost of not doing so is close to zero. Furthermore, you still need to maintain the track through to Walkley yards to access the mainenance facility, which is a stone's throw from Greenboro Station.

Don't you see your own double standard? You have just stated that we might consider spending on transit priority on Riverside running parallel to the Transitway.

We have also seen that we are going to build parallel LRT and Transitway between Baseline and Lincoln Fields stations. Do you object to this too?

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  #759  
Old Posted Nov 27, 2008, 6:39 PM
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Don't forget the incredibly expensive Alta Vista Corridor (AVTC) which will dump traffic into the already congested city core - not helpful.

Better alternative to Browning (underpass "U" and overpass "O" already exist):
Yes, notice how close it runs to the existing Transitway, how it serves low density industrial areas, and how it skips a key transit destination, the hospital district, which is planned for further intensification.

When rapid transit is developed in most cities, it generally connects 3 major locations, downtown employment areas, universities and hospital complexes.
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  #760  
Old Posted Nov 27, 2008, 6:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lrt's friend View Post
Yes, notice how close it runs to the existing Transitway, how it serves low density industrial areas, and how it skips a key transit destination, the hospital district, which is planned for further intensification.

When rapid transit is developed in most cities, it generally connects 3 major locations, downtown employment areas, universities and hospital complexes.
The Trainyards project includes a Wal-mart and many other stores. To the east, there will be office and residential towers and more stores will be built to the west. The New Bus Depot will have direct access to the busway and cost will be cheap and without ruining greenspace and communities.


http://www.ottawatrainyards.com/future.html

What's the argument for Hospitals? If I'm sick, I'm either in an Ambulance or driving, I'm not taking the bus. Visiting hours are off-peak, shifts are 12 hours continuous, so don't fit into regular peak times, makes little sense to me to connect it to a suburb. The current bus doesn't seem very busy.
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