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  #661  
Old Posted Nov 25, 2008, 3:11 PM
lrt's friend lrt's friend is online now
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Does replacing buses with rail on Albert/Slater satisfy their requirements? If not, there is no point to considering rail - most advantages are nulled.
As I said, the Albert/Slater Coalition wants transit off 'their' street. I have always thought this was unrealistic and not in the best interests of our transit system, even if we built a tunnel, whether for trains, buses or both. As our current plan clearly demonstrates, this is not going to happen any time soon, so why didn't we recognize this all along, and develop a plan that allows Albert and Slater to remain a transit corridor? I have mentioned before that Calgary's planned downtown tunnel will not take all transit off of 7th Avenue. The purpose of Calgary's tunnel is to expand downtown transit capacity substantially and that is accomplished by having 2 transit corridors, and not redirecting all transit into the tunnel.

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  #662  
Old Posted Nov 25, 2008, 3:27 PM
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Originally Posted by lrt's friend View Post
As I said, the Albert/Slater Coalition wants transit off 'their' street. I have always thought this was unrealistic and not in the best interests of our transit system, even if we built a tunnel, whether for trains, buses or both. As our current plan clearly demonstrates, this is not going to happen any time soon, so why didn't we recognize this all along, and develop a plan that allows Albert and Slater to remain a transit corridor? I have mentioned before that Calgary's planned downtown tunnel will not take all transit off of 7th Avenue. The purpose of Calgary's tunnel is expand downtown transit capacity substantially and that is accomplished by having 2 transit corridors, and not redirecting all transit into the tunnel.
What's the structure of those responsible for planning in Calgary? Do politicians make the decisions? It seems to work better whatever it is.
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  #663  
Old Posted Nov 25, 2008, 4:36 PM
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I don't think that Andy can change the plan at this point. Trains are hard to stop once they are rolling.

I was disappointed to read the Citizen article. It pointed out that he has had to go this alone, that the evaluation was riddled with spelling errors, and that he had locked his keys in his car and resorted to smashing his window to drive his car.

What the article didn't bring forward were any of the points in the review he did of the Staff's plan.

It was all about making this nothing but buffoonery. Too bad. Andy is an Engineer as well as a (previously) respected Politician and might have had some worth while ideas and analysis.
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  #664  
Old Posted Nov 25, 2008, 4:48 PM
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I don't think that Andy can change the plan at this point. Trains are hard to stop once they are rolling.

I was disappointed to read the Citizen article. It pointed out that he has had to go this alone, that the evaluation was riddled with spelling errors, and that he had locked his keys in his car and resorted to smashing his window to drive his car.

What the article didn't bring forward were any of the points in the review he did of the Staff's plan.

It was all about making this nothing but buffoonery. Too bad. Andy is an Engineer as well as a (previously) respected Politician and might have had some worth while ideas and analysis.
I agree, the article didn't focus on the important matter and attacked the person instead of the report. That's just rhetoric. I think it speaks volumes the lengths this guy has gone to just to make his voice heard. Many of us won't even go to a public meeting to voice our opinion. I think he deserves respect for caring enough to do this on his own dime.

I'd love to see the actual report.
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  #665  
Old Posted Nov 25, 2008, 8:34 PM
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Watson puts brakes on rail plan

Patrick Dare
The Ottawa Citizen

Tuesday, November 25, 2008

OTTAWA - Ontario Municipal Affairs Minister Jim Watson has intervened in Ottawa's public transit debate, questioning whether the city has the money to carry out a multi-billion-dollar plan.

Mr. Watson, the MPP for Ottawa West-Nepean, sent a letter to Mayor Larry O'Brien Tuesday, questioning the accuracy of cost estimates for the $4.7-billion, long-term plan and asking whether the city has the financial ability and backing from the federal government to carry out the series of commuter rail and bus Transitway projects. The letter also questions the potential cost increases of the plan and whether the proposed phasing will match the funding envelopes that are available from the federal and provincial governments.

The letter comes one day before a meeting in which city council is to debate the plan and perhaps vote on it.

Mr. O'Brien responded by holding a press conference at which he packed a banker's box full of city reports and analysis of the city's transportation system and said he would send it to Mr. Watson. Mr. O'Brien said he wants to answer all of Mr. Watson's questions thoroughly to ensure the Ontario government supports the plan.

The mayor and his staff are working hard to shore up support for a strong council vote on the new transportation master plan, meeting with individual councillors to reassure them about financing and the soundness of the city's strategy.

The plan calls for turning bus Transitway from Blair Station in the east to Tunney's Pasture into commuter rail, with a tunnel under downtown. Eventually the rail system would be built to Baseline Station in the west and south to Riverside South.
© The Ottawa Citizen 2008


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  #666  
Old Posted Nov 25, 2008, 10:55 PM
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Holy 🞵🞵🞵🞵 this is getting ridiculous! How come the night before they vote on anything some idiot sticks their nose where it doesn't belong and causes everyone to question their vote? Do I smell a bit of political interference based solely on some party's personal interests? First John Baird, then Clive Doucet, and now Jim Watson. What a bunch of retards. If it's such a big issue now, it would have been a big issue 2-3 weeks ago, and the only reason it's being brought up now is to interfere with the political process at city hall (for better or for worse).
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  #667  
Old Posted Nov 25, 2008, 11:12 PM
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Holy 🞵🞵🞵🞵 this is getting ridiculous! How come the night before they vote on anything some idiot sticks their nose where it doesn't belong and causes everyone to question their vote? Do I smell a bit of political interference based solely on some party's personal interests? First John Baird, then Clive Doucet, and now Jim Watson. What a bunch of retards. If it's such a big issue now, it would have been a big issue 2-3 weeks ago, and the only reason it's being brought up now is to interfere with the political process at city hall (for better or for worse).
You know what, these people have been saying the same thing all along! Doucet wanted Carling from the start, Haydon wrote reports for the mayor - NOBODY LISTENS TO REASON! We need theatrics to get a point across and addressed, that's what's ridiculous! This mayor must go away (either to jail or back to the shady business world).
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  #668  
Old Posted Nov 25, 2008, 11:13 PM
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JEAN DRAPEAU, WHERE ARE YOU!!!!!!????

*sigh*

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  #669  
Old Posted Nov 26, 2008, 12:47 AM
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I hope it's not just a retaliation from 2006 when a Conservative stick his nose to a plan made headed by a Liberal, now the opposite? I'm just sick in tired of this Liberal vs Conservative politics over this issue.

Or maybe Jim is just sending a message to the Council he might run for Mayor in 2010.
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  #670  
Old Posted Nov 26, 2008, 12:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Franky View Post
What's the structure of those responsible for planning in Calgary? Do politicians make the decisions? It seems to work better whatever it is.
Lets say someone was an Aldermen, and wanted a new line built. There is a specific process that would be the most likely to be followed (of course, council could just approve it on the first motion, but is very unlikely to happen).

Notice of motion: Request administration to prepare a report on building a streetcar system to tie in the subject communities of the Centre City Plan, reporting to X committee (could be either Transportation Infrastructure, Planning or really just about any committee that is marginally close).

Report to Committee: at this stage, the report could be
  • Referred back to admin with requested changes in scope, in case they went off completely differently than you intended
  • Referred to the appropriate committee (such as if you asked for the study on the social impacts of the project, once you received that, you could send it to another committee with the recommendation they take it up further
  • Referred to admin for public consultation, basically requesting a report on the consultation
  • Circulated to other committees in case they want to make reports on the impact to them of the project
  • Sent to full council
All the processes above end eventually with a report to council. Once in front of council, council can do the following things, amongst other more obscure ones:
  • Refer back to committee with recommendations
  • Request a consultants report be prepared, allocate money to do so, and direct where the report comes back to
  • Pass a report that includes a budget, timeline and recommend administration undertake the actions in the report (budgets must include where the money is coming from)
  • Pass a report that doesn't include a budget or timeline and recommend administration return with the appropriate plan for approval
  • Pass a report and direct administration to undertake a project from within existing budgets, and let budgets set the timeline (this also needs a direction on where it should be placed on the TIIP [Transportation Infrastructure Improvement Program] list)
  • Pass a report saying that in the future it will be recommended for the TIIP list at the standard TIIP sessions at budget time
  • Pass a report saying that the plan could go forward if covered by an alternative source of funding
  • Pass a report and direct admin to undertake it assuming all the relevant legal changes in other planning documents are undertaken
  • Pass a report and direct admin to return to council with all the legal changes required by the report for final approval
  • Reject the report
In Calgary, the process can get pretty weird, since at times we have approved budgets before we even knew what route we wanted to take, directed admin to expropriate property before the full budget is approved, ordered LRT cars for routes before the route is funded, changed routes after the budget and timeline was passed, approved changes in the route if money was found from non-governmental sources to pay for it.

It is pretty adhoc, what really helps is that the entire LRT system was laid out in the 1970s, and as the plans for that system evolves (lets say, capacity limits necessitate a change) admin reports back to council on different options. council approves changes years, even decades before anything is built. The initial studies for the west line examined upwards of 20 different alignments. The update examined 6 different options for areas that needed changes due to changes since the first report. The 2nd update examined 4 options. The third examined 3. The awesome thing about all of this, is that after the first report, stations didn't move (only the line routing between stations). There was even a fourth update that examined whether it was more proper to service a completely different geographic catchment
area, and what route options we could use if we were to service that area.

The SE LRT line used to be a spur of the south line, but now it is its own dedicated line with its own subway downtown. The deep SW spur became BRT feeding an LRT station. The North Central LRT didn't even have a plan to connect it into downtown (the last 8 kilometers as it gets closer to downtown) until the last 5 years, and will likely change again (the report back was accepted as 'this is the cheapest way to do it, but before anything more happens one should look at it again').

Calgary is currently in the middle of a study update for the downtown subways, with a huge budget ($8 million) that includes full surveys of utilities, and plans for where stations should be, how the different lines should interact and connect.

All of these processes work, since there is a general political consensus that the system should be built out over time, and that previous councils made good decisions for the most part. It works since when half of council wants to reroute a line, they don't do it, they request a report on the consequences of doing it, and then decide later.

It reality, the one who controls the consultants and the report writers have most the power under the system, and that is the CEO and President of the City. The CEO and President have a huge incentive to have as much spare cash available as possible, and therefor have a big incentive for long term planning (the 2005 transportation plan went to 2024 with budgeted amounts for projects, while the 2007 transit plan went to mid century) to help keep operational and planning costs to a minimum. The corridors for the next 5 billion dollars worth of LRT projects are already protected by statute, so whenever any land use comes up that might raise the future cost of a project, it is taken into account before a decision is made.

I could best describe the administration process as technocratic, with council rarely defying their predecessor's decisions which were guided by the original Sykes council. The politicians make all the decisions, but there is a strong incentive to follow past plans. (Our LRT Mayor was defeated while the project was under construction, but the anti LRT people split the vote so much that an even more pro-LRT, environmentalist, fiscally conservative Mayor was elected, Ralph Klein)
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  #671  
Old Posted Nov 26, 2008, 1:41 AM
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Originally Posted by AylmerOptimist View Post
JEAN DRAPEAU, WHERE ARE YOU!!!!!!????

*sigh*

I hope some day, we'll be able to clone him and make the clones as mayors of all canadian cities.
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  #672  
Old Posted Nov 26, 2008, 1:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Cre47 View Post
I hope it's not just a retaliation from 2006 when a Conservative stick his nose to a plan made headed by a Liberal, now the opposite? I'm just sick in tired of this Liberal vs Conservative politics over this issue.

Or maybe Jim is just sending a message to the Council he might run for Mayor in 2010.
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  #673  
Old Posted Nov 26, 2008, 2:17 AM
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Originally Posted by kyle_olsen View Post
Lets say someone was an Aldermen, and wanted a new line built. There is a specific process that would be the most likely to be followed (of course, council could just approve it on the first motion, but is very unlikely to happen).

Notice of motion: Request administration to prepare a report on building a streetcar system to tie in the subject communities of the Centre City Plan, reporting to X committee (could be either Transportation Infrastructure, Planning or really just about any committee that is marginally close).

Report to Committee: at this stage, the report could be
  • Referred back to admin with requested changes in scope, in case they went off completely differently than you intended
  • Referred to the appropriate committee (such as if you asked for the study on the social impacts of the project, once you received that, you could send it to another committee with the recommendation they take it up further
  • Referred to admin for public consultation, basically requesting a report on the consultation
  • Circulated to other committees in case they want to make reports on the impact to them of the project
  • Sent to full council
All the processes above end eventually with a report to council. Once in front of council, council can do the following things, amongst other more obscure ones:
  • Refer back to committee with recommendations
  • Request a consultants report be prepared, allocate money to do so, and direct where the report comes back to
  • Pass a report that includes a budget, timeline and recommend administration undertake the actions in the report (budgets must include where the money is coming from)
  • Pass a report that doesn't include a budget or timeline and recommend administration return with the appropriate plan for approval
  • Pass a report and direct administration to undertake a project from within existing budgets, and let budgets set the timeline (this also needs a direction on where it should be placed on the TIIP [Transportation Infrastructure Improvement Program] list)
  • Pass a report saying that in the future it will be recommended for the TIIP list at the standard TIIP sessions at budget time
  • Pass a report saying that the plan could go forward if covered by an alternative source of funding
  • Pass a report and direct admin to undertake it assuming all the relevant legal changes in other planning documents are undertaken
  • Pass a report and direct admin to return to council with all the legal changes required by the report for final approval
  • Reject the report
In Calgary, the process can get pretty weird, since at times we have approved budgets before we even knew what route we wanted to take, directed admin to expropriate property before the full budget is approved, ordered LRT cars for routes before the route is funded, changed routes after the budget and timeline was passed, approved changes in the route if money was found from non-governmental sources to pay for it.

It is pretty adhoc, what really helps is that the entire LRT system was laid out in the 1970s, and as the plans for that system evolves (lets say, capacity limits necessitate a change) admin reports back to council on different options. council approves changes years, even decades before anything is built. The initial studies for the west line examined upwards of 20 different alignments. The update examined 6 different options for areas that needed changes due to changes since the first report. The 2nd update examined 4 options. The third examined 3. The awesome thing about all of this, is that after the first report, stations didn't move (only the line routing between stations). There was even a fourth update that examined whether it was more proper to service a completely different geographic catchment
area, and what route options we could use if we were to service that area.

The SE LRT line used to be a spur of the south line, but now it is its own dedicated line with its own subway downtown. The deep SW spur became BRT feeding an LRT station. The North Central LRT didn't even have a plan to connect it into downtown (the last 8 kilometers as it gets closer to downtown) until the last 5 years, and will likely change again (the report back was accepted as 'this is the cheapest way to do it, but before anything more happens one should look at it again').

Calgary is currently in the middle of a study update for the downtown subways, with a huge budget ($8 million) that includes full surveys of utilities, and plans for where stations should be, how the different lines should interact and connect.

All of these processes work, since there is a general political consensus that the system should be built out over time, and that previous councils made good decisions for the most part. It works since when half of council wants to reroute a line, they don't do it, they request a report on the consequences of doing it, and then decide later.

It reality, the one who controls the consultants and the report writers have most the power under the system, and that is the CEO and President of the City. The CEO and President have a huge incentive to have as much spare cash available as possible, and therefor have a big incentive for long term planning (the 2005 transportation plan went to 2024 with budgeted amounts for projects, while the 2007 transit plan went to mid century) to help keep operational and planning costs to a minimum. The corridors for the next 5 billion dollars worth of LRT projects are already protected by statute, so whenever any land use comes up that might raise the future cost of a project, it is taken into account before a decision is made.

I could best describe the administration process as technocratic, with council rarely defying their predecessor's decisions which were guided by the original Sykes council. The politicians make all the decisions, but there is a strong incentive to follow past plans. (Our LRT Mayor was defeated while the project was under construction, but the anti LRT people split the vote so much that an even more pro-LRT, environmentalist, fiscally conservative Mayor was elected, Ralph Klein)
Thanks for this. I don't know enough to make comments.
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  #674  
Old Posted Nov 26, 2008, 3:00 AM
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For a process that was supposed to be so much more open, where are the detailed ridership studies and details of where the city's $600M share for the first stage is going to come from? This was all documented in detail with the last project, and this naturally leads to questions from councillors and funding partners.

It is interesting to read the planning history of Calgary's LRT projects and how they managed to keep more or less on the same path. It is pathetic how it became necessary here in Ottawa to 'push the reset button' based on politics and knowing how much political cooperation had occurred to reach that point. There are going to be long-term implications for pulling the plug and lots of axes to grind. In 'pushing the reset button', we were affecting not just the north-south project but also longer-term vision for the whole city, and so much was discredited and therefore became politically difficult to further consider. Effectively, years of planning were thrown in the garbage, not exactly following Calgary's successful example.

What is most scary is how Larry O'Brien did John Baird's dirty work. This made the city financially responsible. When the Eglinton subway was cancelled, it was the provincial government that pulled the plug and therefore the city of Toronto was not left holding the bag.
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  #675  
Old Posted Nov 26, 2008, 4:48 AM
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Originally Posted by lrt's friend
For a process that was supposed to be so much more open, where are the detailed ridership studies and details of where the city's $600M share for the first stage is going to come from? This was all documented in detail with the last project, and this naturally leads to questions from councillors and funding partners.
Well for one, council is not approving a project...they're approving a plan. They're approving an idea that would outline when and how much money the city would spend, but they're not committing to spending any money. That really doesn't happen until a contract is awarded.

All business case work, all detailed ridership studies, etc. were prepared in the two years subsequent to the 2003 TMP being approved, when council approved 4.4B$ worth of transit capital investment.
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  #676  
Old Posted Nov 26, 2008, 5:10 AM
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You know what, these people have been saying the same thing all along! Doucet wanted Carling from the start, Haydon wrote reports for the mayor - NOBODY LISTENS TO REASON! We need theatrics to get a point across and addressed, that's what's ridiculous! This mayor must go away (either to jail or back to the shady business world).
Explain to me how Haydon's point was not addressed. There was a complete operational analysis of whether a bus tunnel could work along with how much it would cost. The public also overwhelmingly stated that they did not want a bus tunnel. Council then voted for a plan that did not include buses downtown.

So staff don't want it, the public doesn't want it, council doesn't want it...that leaves you and Andy Haydon. Are you going to call a press conference too? The reason nobody is listening to him isn't because there's some sort of staff conspiracy to screw him over, it's because his stupid ideas have been addressed. His actions are nothing more than a temper tantrum at this point...fairly similar to what you guys have been doing.

Last edited by Deez; Nov 26, 2008 at 5:22 AM.
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  #677  
Old Posted Nov 26, 2008, 5:20 AM
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Watson puts brakes on rail plan

Patrick Dare
The Ottawa Citizen

Tuesday, November 25, 2008

OTTAWA - Ontario Municipal Affairs Minister Jim Watson has intervened in Ottawa's public transit debate, questioning whether the city has the money to carry out a multi-billion-dollar plan.

Mr. Watson, the MPP for Ottawa West-Nepean, sent a letter to Mayor Larry O'Brien Tuesday, questioning the accuracy of cost estimates for the $4.7-billion, long-term plan and asking whether the city has the financial ability and backing from the federal government to carry out the series of commuter rail and bus Transitway projects. The letter also questions the potential cost increases of the plan and whether the proposed phasing will match the funding envelopes that are available from the federal and provincial governments.

The letter comes one day before a meeting in which city council is to debate the plan and perhaps vote on it.

Mr. O'Brien responded by holding a press conference at which he packed a banker's box full of city reports and analysis of the city's transportation system and said he would send it to Mr. Watson. Mr. O'Brien said he wants to answer all of Mr. Watson's questions thoroughly to ensure the Ontario government supports the plan.

The mayor and his staff are working hard to shore up support for a strong council vote on the new transportation master plan, meeting with individual councillors to reassure them about financing and the soundness of the city's strategy.

The plan calls for turning bus Transitway from Blair Station in the east to Tunney's Pasture into commuter rail, with a tunnel under downtown. Eventually the rail system would be built to Baseline Station in the west and south to Riverside South.
© The Ottawa Citizen 2008


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Again, this is just getting stupid. The 2003 TMP set forth 4.4B$ worth of transit capital projects over 18 years (244M$/y). The 2008 TMP provides for 5.1B$ over 23 years (221M$/y). Where were the stories about affordability 5 years ago?
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  #678  
Old Posted Nov 26, 2008, 12:03 PM
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Again, this is just getting stupid. The 2003 TMP set forth 4.4B$ worth of transit capital projects over 18 years (244M$/y). The 2008 TMP provides for 5.1B$ over 23 years (221M$/y). Where were the stories about affordability 5 years ago?
To be fair, there wasn't an economic recession/crisis/whatever you want to call it five years ago...
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  #679  
Old Posted Nov 26, 2008, 1:21 PM
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Explain to me how Haydon's point was not addressed. There was a complete operational analysis of whether a bus tunnel could work along with how much it would cost. The public also overwhelmingly stated that they did not want a bus tunnel. Council then voted for a plan that did not include buses downtown.

So staff don't want it, the public doesn't want it, council doesn't want it...that leaves you and Andy Haydon. Are you going to call a press conference too? The reason nobody is listening to him isn't because there's some sort of staff conspiracy to screw him over, it's because his stupid ideas have been addressed. His actions are nothing more than a temper tantrum at this point...fairly similar to what you guys have been doing.
The numbers were fudged making BRT cost the same as LRT. This is no where near reality by all accounts. I was at those public meetings and the staffer told the group the BRT option doesn't work. Obviously, they were pushing their own agenda. Why do you think so few people attended these "consultations"? They know it's BS and the city will do as it pleases whether it makes sense or not.

And how long have we been saying it's a stupid plan and will cost too much? Pretty much since it was proposed. Does anything change? No.
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  #680  
Old Posted Nov 26, 2008, 1:59 PM
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So staff don't want it, the public doesn't want it, council doesn't want it...that leaves you and Andy Haydon. Are you going to call a press conference too?
lol

Quote:
To be fair, there wasn't an economic recession/crisis/whatever you want to call it five years ago...
It is widely recognized that the best way for our government to absorb some of this economic meltdown is to invest money into infrastructure. When Flaherty and Harper talk of a Canadian bailout, a ton of that money is going to go to roads, transit, building projects. That is how the Americans minimized a number of small economic slowdowns during the 1960's and prevented them from turning into full-blown recessions. I think the current market situation is a good thing for this transit plan.
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