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  #621  
Old Posted Nov 21, 2008, 4:39 PM
markbarbera markbarbera is offline
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Originally Posted by raisethehammer View Post
I looked at it this morning.
the 'walkways' are the usual tiny concrete sidewalks in front of stores. nothing is connected and to get from one building to another requires walking in parking lots and roadways.
The site plan can be deceiving if you do not keep perpective with scale. The narrowest walkway appears to be about four feet wide. The walkway in front of the big boxes is about 15 feet wide, and most other walkways look about six feet wide. To keep perspective, eyeball the sidewalk width in comparison to the width of a parking spot in the site plan. A parking spot averages six feet in width.

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Originally Posted by raisethehammer View Post
To suggest that crossing a downtown street at a stoplight is less safe or equally safe than trying to cross a mega-parking lot in 5 places in order to walk to another buildng is insane.
No, it is the truth. Crossing against 20 kmh traffic circulating in a parking lot is infinitely more safe than crossing 50 kmh crossroad traffic. Using the word 'mega' in your description does not impact on traffic safety.

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Originally Posted by raisethehammer View Post
My bias is against crap.
This is an urban neighbourhood with lots of pedestrians/cyclists and transit users.
Yet, this development has taken shape as if it's in the meadowlands.
The development plan is significantly different from Meadowlands. Meadowlands does nto take any pedestrian traffic into account. This development does. Again, a bias against Meadowlands is clouding your judgement.

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Originally Posted by raisethehammer View Post
I fail to see how you can be promoting this as pedestrian friendly when the most dominant feature on the site plan is a massive parking lot. Please post a photo-tour of your experience the first time you do some 'serious shopping' by bus/foot at this place.
And perhaps you can reserve judgement on the pedestrian experience until you have actually visited the completed site as well. You may be pleasantly surprised by your experience.
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  #622  
Old Posted Nov 21, 2008, 4:45 PM
markbarbera markbarbera is offline
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Originally Posted by ryan_mcgreal View Post
They said the same things about Jackson Square and the Eaton Centre (now Hamilton City Centre). Just like the new Centre Mall, those structures were turned in on themselves, presenting blank walls to their surroundings and locating parking inside the big block (albeit underground, and with actual indoor corridors between stores).

The surrounding areas, denied the continuity of a functioning streetwall, suffered badly after JS/CC went up. Foot traffic dwindled, stores closed, and buildings were neglected in a vicious cycle of depopulation and disinvestment. Call it a negative multiplier effect: the inward-facing commercial establishment drained its surroundings of vitality until a tipping point was crossed and the mall itself began to suffer, since its surroundings were so bad no one wanted to come downtown any more.

But we are dealing with a site that was already isolated from the community. There is no net difference to the area. There is nothing more inward-facing than the indoor shopping centre island surrounded by moat of parking.

Like I have said before, there is some argument that an opportunity for mixed-use redevelopment was lost here, but the end result will not worsen the area. At worst, the status quo will remain. At best, the neighbouring commercial areas will see an improvement in occupancy and real estate values, which is already being seen on Ottawa Street and to a lesser extend along Kenilworth. And the city will experience an increase in commercial property tax revenue.
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  #623  
Old Posted Nov 21, 2008, 4:46 PM
markbarbera markbarbera is offline
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Originally Posted by comadriver View Post
Ryan, any chance this could be a correlation rather than causal relationship?
That's an excellent point which is often overlooked. Thanks for pointing it out.
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  #624  
Old Posted Nov 21, 2008, 6:39 PM
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ryan_mcgreal ryan_mcgreal is offline
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Originally Posted by comadriver View Post
Ryan, any chance this could be a correlation rather than causal relationship?
In the interest of clarity, a causal relationship is a type of correlation; but you're correct that not all correlations are causal. Further, even where causality does exist, its direction is not always clear.

For example, there is a very strong positive correlation between ice cream sales and heatstroke, but it would be absurd to conclude that ice cream causes heatstroke or that heatstroke causes increased desire for ice cream. The correct explanation for this correlation is that both heatstroke and increased desire for ice cream are caused by hot weather.

This example indicates the best way to determine whether and how two correlated phenomena are connected causally: the presence or absence of a plausible causal path that makes useful predictions that can be tested empirically.

This gets tricky, of course, when studying the economic and social effects of a given building form. It's not like you can test these effects experimentally with an otherwise-similar control group!

But through the less direct process of careful observation, comparative analysis of different areas and different cities over time, it's still possible to draw pretty confident conclusions.

Looking at a number of downtown malls built in different North American cities during the 1960s-1980s, certain patterns emerge:
  • The existing streets around inward-facing, indoor malls tend to deteriorate significantly after the malls were created.
  • The existing streets around outward-facing malls with porous streetwalls and around outdoor malls with pedestrian areas tend not to deteriorate as much.
  • The existing streets around malls that were converted from inward-facing to outward-facing (i.e. from blank to porous) tend to improve after the conversion.
As an example, an excellent academic study of this trend is Piere Filion et al.'s paper The Successful Few: Healthy Downtowns of Small Metropolitan Regions, which examines the relative success or failure of various downtowns and concludes that:

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downtown could no longer compete with the suburbs on its own terms and that their salvation rested instead on their distinction from the suburban realm in terms of the nature of their activities, a more compact built environment, and the predominance of pedestrian movement for intra-downtown journeys.
In other words: successful downtowns have streetwalls, dense, mixed building uses, and pedestrian-friendly infrastructure - none of which characteristics the new Centre Mall offers.

I also encourage you to supplement your research with basic firsthand observation. Starting at the corner of King and James, walk along King to Bay and turn right (north). Walk on Bay until York and turn right (east). Walk along York until James and turn right (south). Pay attention as you walk: to the sidewalk, the flow of traffic, the building walls that surround you, the presence or absence of other pedestrians, and so on.

Probably the worst offender in the megablock is City Centre, whose exterior is the most blank and impermeable, and whose facade is the most bland and cartoony (right down to fake flags on the clock tower). Ask yourself: What reason or incentive might I have to stand or walk outside this mall?

Last edited by ryan_mcgreal; Nov 21, 2008 at 6:57 PM.
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  #625  
Old Posted Nov 21, 2008, 7:19 PM
raisethehammer raisethehammer is offline
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Originally Posted by markbarbera View Post
But we are dealing with a site that was already isolated from the community. There is no net difference to the area. There is nothing more inward-facing than the indoor shopping centre island surrounded by moat of parking.
sadly this sort of logic has become a mantra in Hamilton as we try to defend garbage developments - "it's no worse than what was there" is not the kind of city I want to live in.
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  #626  
Old Posted Nov 21, 2008, 8:02 PM
markbarbera markbarbera is offline
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sadly this sort of logic has become a mantra in Hamilton as we try to defend garbage developments - "it's no worse than what was there" is not the kind of city I want to live in.
Likewise, the mantra to adhere to nothing less than the percieved idealism of a few of self-appointed experts on the subject has stagnated any kind of progress in this city, good or bad.

For the record, I do not see myself as a defender of garbage developments because I simply do not see the Centre Mall development as a garbage redevelopment. I actually think it is quite appropriate for the area given its retail history, and a realistic approach to the potential of an area that abutts such a large concentration of heavy industry. At risk of offending some, you simply cannot make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.

The city has been quite involved in the redevelopment plans for this site. It has the support of council, specifically the unqualified support of the councillor that represents the area in which it resides. The time to be critical of the redevelopment had come and gone years ago. Griping about it during the construction phase is a complete waste of time and energy.

Last edited by markbarbera; Nov 21, 2008 at 9:06 PM.
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  #627  
Old Posted Nov 21, 2008, 8:02 PM
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"it's no worse than what was there" is not the kind of city I want to live in.
Likewise, the RHVP enthusiasts have resorted to claiming they're vindicated because the universe didn't actually collapse into singularity when the expressway was completed.
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  #628  
Old Posted Nov 21, 2008, 8:11 PM
markbarbera markbarbera is offline
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Originally Posted by ryan_mcgreal View Post
Likewise, the RHVP enthusiasts have resorted to claiming they're vindicated because the universe didn't actually collapse into singularity when the expressway was completed.
It astounds me that this battle is still being fought years after the highway's completion. It has been built, and it is being used by thousands. Time to move on, folks.
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  #629  
Old Posted Nov 21, 2008, 8:31 PM
crhayes crhayes is offline
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I am going to reserve judgement until the project is complete. Sure, there may not be a streetwall, but hopefully there are some other aesthetics such as trees, banners etc. to make it look nicer.

Although this is not "ideal" to many people there definitely are some positives to it.
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  #630  
Old Posted Nov 21, 2008, 8:36 PM
comadriver comadriver is offline
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Ryan, I am on board with the concept of openness. Having re-looked at the plan that Mark linked to, I see significant street frontage, which visually obstructs a lot of the parking spaces if you look at it from Barton. Most smaller stores open onto Barton street. The biggest boxes are tucked to the back, which makes sense.

Is your precise issue with the sheer number of parking spaces? The intent is obviously to bring people in from outside the immediate area. Can you say with confidence that would happen without the parking spaces? What specific changes would you make to the layout, while keeping all of these businesses in the area? Keep in mind that a lot of them cannot operate unless they are a certain size and in a mall setting, due to the economies of scale.

As someone who just bought a house not too far from Centre Mall and intend to bike, walk or drive to some of these stores, I like the layout. It sure beats the Square One-type plan, where you need to walk for 20 minutes inside the mall just to get to the store you need.
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  #631  
Old Posted Nov 21, 2008, 8:58 PM
raisethehammer raisethehammer is offline
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Originally Posted by markbarbera View Post
It astounds me that this battle is still being fought years after the highway's completion. It has been built, and it is being used by thousands. Time to move on, folks.
claims were made by RHVP enthusiasts and now is where 'the rubber meets the road' to see if those claims are true are not. So far, RHVP enthusiasts have resorted to responding "it's been built. move on."
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  #632  
Old Posted Nov 21, 2008, 9:04 PM
markbarbera markbarbera is offline
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You are incorrectly categorizing me as a RHVP enthusiast. However, I do have enough sense not to dwell in the past and know how to move on.
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  #633  
Old Posted Nov 21, 2008, 9:07 PM
raisethehammer raisethehammer is offline
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no, I wasn't referring to you. Just to RHVP enthusiasts in general.
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  #634  
Old Posted Nov 21, 2008, 9:15 PM
markbarbera markbarbera is offline
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I am surprised at how heavily this road has been adopted, but I now accept the fact that, for the majority of citizens of Hamilton, the RHVP is a useful part of the infrastructure. But this thread is now bogged down by ramblings over the merit of done deals. I say again, time to move on.
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  #635  
Old Posted Nov 21, 2008, 9:23 PM
raisethehammer raisethehammer is offline
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it may be a done deal in terms of being constructed, but nowhere near being a 'done deal' in terms of delivering it's promises: tens of thousands of new jobs, millions in new tax assessment and tons of industry that would make it a worthwhile investment. Of course, we'll look over Larry DiIanni's claim that "NO residential sprawl will be built at the top of the road. It's for INDUSTRY and PROSPERITY that we need". Funny. I was at a friend's house the other day and their backyard backs onto the entry ramps to RHVP.

Nobody ever doubted that people would drive on it.
Ever been to L.A.?? Strange thing happens when you build roads - people drive on them.
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  #636  
Old Posted Nov 21, 2008, 9:30 PM
markbarbera markbarbera is offline
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Originally Posted by raisethehammer View Post
it may be a done deal in terms of being constructed, but nowhere near being a 'done deal' in terms of delivering it's promises: tens of thousands of new jobs, millions in new tax assessment and tons of industry that would make it a worthwhile investment. Of course, we'll look over Larry DiIanni's claim that "NO residential sprawl will be built at the top of the road. It's for INDUSTRY and PROSPERITY that we need". Funny. I was at a friend's house the other day and their backyard backs onto the entry ramps to RHVP.

Nobody ever doubted that people would drive on it.
Ever been to L.A.?? Strange thing happens when you build roads - people drive on them.
I feel duty-bound to point out the obvious. This is a thread about the Centre Mall, not the RHVP. Its mention here is a bit of a straw man. There's a thread for its discussion elsewhere. If it is humanly possible that something that ought to have been said about it has not yet been said, then post it there.
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  #637  
Old Posted Nov 21, 2008, 10:08 PM
raisethehammer raisethehammer is offline
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I think it absolutely relates to this thread. It's being touted as the 'reason' for the 'wonderful' Centre Maul development by RHVP backers. At least they are willing to admit that Centre Mall is being redone for cars only.
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  #638  
Old Posted Nov 21, 2008, 10:30 PM
markbarbera markbarbera is offline
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Actually, if it is being 'used' to tout this development, the argument is that the improved access the RHVP provides will allow for a wider demographic of shoppers to add to its dwindling base. And there must be truth to that, considering the retail development sprouting up at the southern end of the RHVP.

But the RHVP was not brought up in your earlier post in that context, was it? It was more in the form of a broadsided cheap shot at a former politician and others who dared to defy your opinion and actually supported the construction of the RHVP.

A couple more points regarding that post. Do point out if I am wrong, but your friend's home that backs onto the RHVP ramp had to have been built prior to the parkway. No new residential construction has been built backing onto the RHVP since its completion.

Yes I have been to LA. Lovely town. Can't wait to visit again.
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  #639  
Old Posted Nov 21, 2008, 10:35 PM
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Originally Posted by markbarbera View Post
It astounds me that this battle is still being fought years after the highway's completion. It has been built, and it is being used by thousands. Time to move on, folks.
Years? It's been one year.
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  #640  
Old Posted Nov 21, 2008, 10:37 PM
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Centre Maul (oops, did I spell that right?) has nothing to do with the Red Hill Parkway. Big box is a universal trend in retail as malls become passé. Whenever a mall is getting old, they just slap up a big box that's already designed. See Queenston mall, Mountain Plaza mall, etc, etc. In this case they at least did a bit of cut & paste and rotate 180º in AutoCAD to come up with the 'streetwall' variation.

It's Hamilton, we ought to be thankful for a bit of mediocrity right? I'm lukewarm on the whole thing, if it was downtown I'd be right pissed off but where it is, it's only as bad as any other city's inner suburb mediocrity. There's something very similar that went into some unsed railway land in Toronto's Junction neighbourhood. It's a huge waste of land and infill potential, but in that area it won't do much harm.
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