Downtown Update

[markbarbera]

Liebermann's current woes with the Westside Theatre are his own doing, not the city's. It is a result of his failure to do due diligence when buying the place. Now he's trying to manipulate the media to do an end-run around city bylaw enforcement rather than abiding by them from the get-go. He has no sympathy here.

Apply for the zoning change and operate within the current restrictions until it gets passed. It's not like he is losing gigs because of the lack of liquor licensing. He's managed with special event permits until this point. Why a need for a permanent licence now all of a sudden? What changes to the venue does he plan?

[ryan_mcgreal]

Originally Posted by markbarbera

Now he's trying to manipulate the media to do an end-run around city bylaw enforcement rather than abiding by them from the get-go.

That may be true, but that doesn't change the fact that the city's morass of bylaws is a) bad for business in itself and b) painfully slow and cumbersome to work through. If someone wants to buy a property, invest in renovating it and operate a business out of it, the city should be fast, simple, and responsive to deal with. Instead, the city itself is one of the biggest obstacles.

It's past time that Hamilton moves from zoning-based codes (strained peas over here, mashed potatoes over there) to form- and performance-based codes.

[markbarbera]

The city is not impeding his operation of a theater here. This is a 'licensing to sell alcohol' issue here. Not just city red tape. And the licensing committee is hyper-sensitive to application handling these days. And so they should be. I surely don't want them rushing through licensed bar approvals. That's how we end up with places like the infamous former C.D. Bar on Ottawa Street.

Personally I don't like how this site is evolving. It was first supposed to be a new theatre venue, now it needs a permanent liquor licence for concerts and weddings?

[ryan_mcgreal]

Originally Posted by markbarbera

It was first supposed to be a new theatre venue, now it needs a permanent liquor licence for concerts and weddings?

I've never been to a theatre that didn't serve alcohol. Heck, even movie theatres are now starting to include licenced areas (e.g. the Silver City Oakville on Burloak). Comparing Westside Theatre to CD Bar is a real stretch.

[raisethehammer]

this isn't the 1940's anymore.
The city's zoning is completely out of date. Back then, nobody in their right mind would envision at old factory on Steven Street being used as a residential loft, theatre, performing space, art gallery, lounge etc.....
nobody would have envisioned a TV studio being used for weddings, banquents, concerts, theatre etc.....

It's how other cities end up with wicked places like the Distillery District, King West (TO) and Pearl District (Portland).

"we've never allowed liquor in old factories so we sure aren't going to now, darn it!" is not the way of bringing Hamilton into the 21st Century and attracting all the 'cool kids' from TO as the National Post put it.

[realcity]

there's two arguments happening here.

1. YES The City's by-laws are extremely outdated. I get it. But.....

2. Lieberman has only himself to fault. If he's trying to prove a point about outdated by-laws he's certainly not doing a good job. LLBOs are one thing, but the city first should start with multi-use zoning allowances and drop the ridiculous parking requirements.

I agree with markbarera.... operate on 'stag' licenses and lobby for a rezone/LLBO. But why has he waited until now to do this? Also the place is a dive.. it was pitched as a new 'theatre' not a place for stag & does and weddings.

I've been to many OPera and Aquarius productions and while there is some drinking at intermission, it's only a 12-24 at most in line. It could have to do with intermission is only about 10 minutes long by the time you make your way to the lobby. Lieberman's format may be different but I'm sure with some creative problem solving he can have a temp solution, instead of another blame game a la Tivoli.

[markbarbera]

Originally Posted by ryan_mcgreal

I've never been to a theatre that didn't serve alcohol. Heck, even movie theatres are now starting to include licenced areas (e.g. the Silver City Oakville on Burloak).

My point is, the licensing and zoning should have been something attended to at the time of purchase in 2005, not three years after the fact. How is it the city's fault that the owner did not properly license it from the start - and was apparantly unaware of its zoning restrictions? If he had done his homework, the zoning issue would have come to light years ago.

Everyone is on the same page about bylaws and the amount of paperwork a business owner needs to deal with to get a business up and running in this city. Tim McCabe has identified this as a problem and committed himself to improving the overall process. Perhaps this case should be a reason to support his efforts, rather than the typical knee-jerk criticism of the city.

[crhayes]

Originally Posted by raisethehammer

how about a slightly different take:

the city needs a new zoning designation called 'EH' - empty commercial.
That's what all their zoning loopholes and big song and dance procedures end up resulting across the city.
How many times have we heard about the city being the biggest obstacle in business ventures.... Pearl Company is currently going through this. Westinghouse still sits empty thanks to the visionaries at the hall.
Lieberman may be a jerk, but this city is so antiquated and stuck in the past it's disgusting.
stripping away zoning obstacles and heavy-handed requirements are what allowed King West in Toronto to boom back to life after being an empty industrial district.
Seems Hamilton council is more than happy to keep our city as an empty industrial district because "that use doesn't comply with our zoning from 1943"....what a bunch of idiots.

LOL...I've never met any of the councilors...but every time I read one of your posts I get more and more afraid to. It's almost to the point where (in my head) they are diseased!!

[ryan_mcgreal]

Originally Posted by markbarbera

My point is, the licensing and zoning should have been something attended to at the time of purchase in 2005, not three years after the fact.

I'm not disputing this, except to suggest that their business plan seems to have changed since they first opened the theatre (as most business plans do once they come into contact with reality).

My point is that if Hamilton had effective, investment-friendly licencing and coding regulations - as many other cities already have - this wouldn't be an issue in the first place.

Originally Posted by markbarbera

Everyone is on the same page about bylaws and the amount of paperwork a business owner needs to deal with to get a business up and running in this city. Tim McCabe has identified this as a problem and committed himself to improving the overall process. Perhaps this case should be a reason to support his efforts, rather than the typical knee-jerk criticism of the city.

It's not knee-jerk criticism to complain that the city hasn't done something it needs to do so badly that everyone agrees about it, from urban activists to the general manager of planning and economic development.

[emge]

Originally Posted by crhayes

LOL...I've never met any of the councilors...but every time I read one of your posts I get more and more afraid to. It's almost to the point where (in my head) they are diseased!!

We've got a few good ones too. Don't (entirely) despair.

[raisethehammer]

Originally Posted by emge

We've got a few good ones too. Don't (entirely) despair.

most certainly.
some are absolutely great.
Unfortunately, that is the minority. I've had various dealings with the city over the years and the nonsense you have to go through in the planning/zoning departments is unreal.
No wonder home-builders just start bribing staff and paying for councillors election campaigns. It's way easier and cheaper than dealing with the never-ending red tape.

But yes, some councillors do a great job and I'm sure most, if not all, are wonderful people.

[adam]

[raisethehammer]

Spoons Cafe is open on King East in IV now.
Hard to tell how busy it is riding by with the frosted glass windows...I hate it when eateries make their windows hard to see through from the outside.

[thistleclub]

Re: Westside

The Tivoli was licensed, was it not? And will this mean that Creative Arts Inc., the other half of the operation, has to find a new home? (My curiosity is componded by the domain action at http://www.creativearts.on.ca.)

[crhayes]

Originally Posted by raisethehammer

Spoons Cafe is open on King East in IV now.
Hard to tell how busy it is riding by with the frosted glass windows...I hate it when eateries make their windows hard to see through from the outside.

I would think people inside appreciate it

[highwater]

I doubt that. Part of the reason people dine out is to see and be seen.

[adam]

Tinting windows of a restaurant is a suburban idea where you go to a restaurant to forget that you are in a subdivision.

A downtown restaurant, on the other hand, benefits from the streetscape and it adds to the experience. Maxim's Deli had this feel to it. I used to enjoy eating there and watching the happenings on King St. The owner was from Toronto.

[raisethehammer]

yea, Spoons is on a great stretch across the street from a bunch of buildings that have been beautifully renovated in the past couple years.
You want people inside to enjoy gazing out over the street and you want people walking by to look inside and see a nice, bustling scene.
I guess in the suburbs you can eat in a big, windowless box since nobody is walking by and there's nothing to look at, but downtown I NEVER go into a place without windows or with windows covered up.

[raisethehammer]

another new restaurant opening soon on King at Catharine. Called Pineapple Thai I think.

[crhayes]

Originally Posted by raisethehammer

yea, Spoons is on a great stretch across the street from a bunch of buildings that have been beautifully renovated in the past couple years.
You want people inside to enjoy gazing out over the street and you want people walking by to look inside and see a nice, bustling scene.
I guess in the suburbs you can eat in a big, windowless box since nobody is walking by and there's nothing to look at, but downtown I NEVER go into a place without windows or with windows covered up.

Hmm, well I live in the suburbs and I am currently a broke student, so as much as I would like to start checking out restaurants downtown I can't for now.

Anyone want to pick up the tab? lol