Hazel on Hamilton

[comadriver]

Mississauga differs from Toronto in many respects. It has a top-notch network of libraries and community centers. Their gyms are clean, modern and cheap.. The suburbia is pretty bad though, and I think overpriced.

And that's why I am moving to Hamilton.

[Boomtown_Hamilton]

Originally Posted by flar

Hamilton is to Mississauga as apples are to oranges, actually make that Hamilton is to Mississauga as apples are to something completely different that fruit.

Toronto was full, it expanded to fill its boundaries. There were (are) obviously some empty spaces, but there was no nice flat open farmland like there is (was) in Mississauga. Toronto's airport happened to be there. Mississauga is Toronto in all but name. It's surburban through and through and I laugh when people claim that it is one of Canada's largest cities. It simply would not exist if not for Toronto.

It's easy to have a balanced budget with constant massive development for 30 straight years. Talk to me in 30 more years when all their nice shiny infrastructure is crumbling like Hamilton's and there is no longer double digit growth. Then we'll see how balanced their budget is.

I agree with you 100%...I've always thought of Misssissauga as a suburb of Toronto. Everyone likes to give Hazel accolades but a blow-up doll in her place would have done just a good a job. They are just lucky to be next door to Canada's biggest city and one of the fastest growing cities in North America; Toronto.

[adam]

Here is a rendering of a group of condos that's being built right near the Mississauga city centre:



go ahead and drool... I did.

Here is their site: http://www.absolutecondos.com/

[raisethehammer]

Originally Posted by Boomtown_Hamilton

That's a nice looking building...something like that would look good in downtown Hamilton. Instead of building one 100-story building like Stinson wanted to do I would rather they build three 30-storey buildings or two 50-storey buildings instead.

LOL...this is one of the buildings I had in mind when I referred to shlockey buildings.
It is HIDEOUS! A lame stucco-looking attempt at New York gothic architecture.
Makes me want to barf almost as much as that idiotic NYTowers in North York.
Look at those friggin lame 'gargoyles'. haha.
I'm sorry, but this building sucks in every way possible.

[raisethehammer]

Originally Posted by adam

Here is a rendering of a group of condos that's being built right near the Mississauga city centre:



go ahead and drool... I did.

Here is their site: http://www.absolutecondos.com/

these ones also rank high in the 'schlock' department.

I love the phrase 'mississuga city centre' Lol. A friggin mall.

[flar]

My photo tour of Mississauga City Centre last winter provoked some heated discussion:
http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=143799

There are a lot of strong opinions on Mississauga

[adam]

So far you guys have shown that Mississauga and Hamilton have a couple things in common: they both are mostly suburbia and have a "friggin mall" (as RTH so aptly put it) as their city centres. And if Stinson was successful in building his tower then Hamilton would have a third thing in common with Mississauga - a major condo development.

[flar]

Originally Posted by adam

So far you guys have shown that Mississauga and Hamilton have a couple things in common: they both are mostly suburbia and have a "friggin mall" (as RTH so aptly put it) as their city centres. And if Stinson was successful in building his tower then Hamilton would have a third thing in common with Mississauga - a major condo development.

I think you're stretching it in all three departments.

Hamilton is not mostly suburban. Even the mountain is not really suburban north of Fennel. All of our suburbs have cores that are at least as old as Hamilton itself (Burlington, Waterdown, Dundas, Ancaster, Stoney Creek). Look at a map and compare Hamilton to London, ON. London is mostly suburban with a tiny core. Hamilton is Hamilton with a small fringe of suburbia around the outskirts--most of Hamilton suburbia is in Burlington. Mississauga is just a huge tangle of winding roads and cul de sacs.

Hamilton is lacking in major malls (though we're quickly making up for it in big box centres). Again, compare to London which has several major malls like Limeridge. Hamilton has Limeridge, Jackson Sq, and I guess Mapleview or Mapleridge or whatever in Burlington. I guess both Missy and Hammer have downtown malls, one is successful, the other is not.

Major condo developments: Mississauga outdoes Hamilton here by several orders of magnitude.

[adam]

Okay we've settled that most of us would never want to live in Mississauga (me included). It still doesn't change the fact that their mayor has done an excellent job of attracting businesses to the city and, in turn, made condo developments lucrative for developers. Can't Hamilton learn a lesson or two from this? Aren't we trying to rejuvenate the core by attracting business and high density residential development? Wasn't that the whole point of the article before people started criticizing left right and centre?

[raisethehammer]

Originally Posted by adam

So far you guys have shown that Mississauga and Hamilton have a couple things in common: they both are mostly suburbia and have a "friggin mall" (as RTH so aptly put it) as their city centres. And if Stinson was successful in building his tower then Hamilton would have a third thing in common with Mississauga - a major condo development.

are you for real??
maybe you've missed the other threads showing Hamilton's density compared with other Canadian cities.
How you can call downtown 'a mall' is also perplexing. we have a mall downtown, like every city.
they have a mall, and that's it.

Go walk Durand sometime...you'll see a TON of condos. Remember, this is a real city with similar bones to Montreal, Brooklyn, Boston etc.... we have nicer condos in century old buildings in Durand than anything you'll ever find in Missy, especially in these vertical sprawl towers.
I'd love some new highrises downtown here like anyone, but to say we have no condos downtown is ridiculous.

Flar - I think one of the reasons for strong reaction to Missy is because of articles like this Spec one...trying to pass it off as a real city. anyone whose head isn't stuck up their backside knows that it's not a city. not in the slightest. it's just an extension of suburban TO with TO's airport.
They need to stop making this crap mayor sound like some hero. She was completely clueless while in office and history will bear that out when it's all said and done.
My 2 year old could be mayor of Missy and had the same results.

[thistleclub]

@ adam: Eleven years ago, during sesqui celebrations, the city had a short-term program designed to inspire downtown investment. They refunded fees, had no development charges or parking requirements, and adopted less restrictive zoning. Out of that came the City Places development at King Wiilliam and Walnut. McCallion is right about paying your way, and even she had to sto flex on that, hifting tax burden from business to homeowners. That would be one solution to the downtown deadlock. Basically what it amounts to is residents shouldering the offset tax load for as long as it takes to turn things around. In early 2001, The Spec's Lament For A Downtown series tried to de-frizz the tangle.

[Hammer Native]

We have some great condominium addresses at grand old properties the likes of which Mississauga will never see. Piggott/Sunlife buildings, Sandyford Place on Duke Street, Ballynahinch, a former mansion on James South under the escarpment, Mainhattan in downtown Dundas, various other loft projects and possibly Stinson School. Unfortunately it's the new stuff being built, (those that even do get built) are uninspiring.

[Hammer Native]

And one thing I always thought furthered the argument that Mississauga was just Toronto's westward sprawl;---even their major streets don't change names, Lakeshore, Dundas, Bloor, Burnhamthorpe, Eglinton. So much for a true city with an identity.

[adam]

Ok I give up. Hamilton has nothing to learn from a city with 50 Fortune 500 companies and a 23% growth in the past 10 years. (Hamilton's growth of 8% in the past 10 years is mostly due to amalgamation)

If you don't like a comparison to Mississauga, lets compare Hamilton to Calgary or Ottawa and try to figure out how to get businesses to relocate here. That's the point of the thread anyway.

[flar]

Originally Posted by adam

Ok I give up. Hamilton has nothing to learn from a city with 50 Fortune 500 companies and a 23% growth in the past 10 years. (Hamilton's growth of 8% in the past 10 years is mostly due to amalgamation)

If you don't like a comparison to Mississauga, lets compare Hamilton to Calgary or Ottawa and try to figure out how to get businesses to relocate here. That's the point of the thread anyway.

What does the article tell us though? What advice does Hazel have for us? To increase our tax base? We know that, it's just difficult. To fund infrastructure off short term development fees? That's not a good long term solution for which Mississauga will pay the price eventually.

Mississauga is Toronto. All those companies that located there located there because it's as close to Toronto as possible. Miles of nice flat greenfield ready to develop at minimal cost was sitting there waiting beside the the largest and busiest airport in Canada, right where the 401 (one of the busiest and most important trade routes in the world) and the QEW (another major route to another part of the USA) converge right next to the largest and most powerful city in Canada. We're just saying "how can you go wrong in that situation?" It's Toronto's growth but I'll give Hazel credit for rolling out the red carpet.

The simple fact is that Hamilton just doesn't enjoy that kind of demand. Maybe Toronto's growth will touch Hamilton--but if it does I really hope we don't follow in Mississauga's footsteps. Given such a golden opportunity, what is Mississauga? Acres of warehouses, office and light industry along highways + acres of winding roads and cul de sacs + a manufactured downtown centred on a shopping mall + several older cores that were swallowed up rather than built upon. A place so generic it is known worldwide for its banality.

[raisethehammer]

Originally Posted by adam

Ok I give up. Hamilton has nothing to learn from a city with 50 Fortune 500 companies and a 23% growth in the past 10 years. (Hamilton's growth of 8% in the past 10 years is mostly due to amalgamation)

If you don't like a comparison to Mississauga, lets compare Hamilton to Calgary or Ottawa and try to figure out how to get businesses to relocate here. That's the point of the thread anyway.

if Hazel wants to be honest about how her 'city' saw such growth, her advice to others should be "try to become mayor of a farmtown that is also home to Toronto's airport".

Done. End of story. Take the airport out of there and nobody would know who she is, or where her 'city' is.

[Boomtown_Hamilton]

Originally Posted by adam

Ok I give up. Hamilton has nothing to learn from a city with 50 Fortune 500 companies and a 23% growth in the past 10 years. (Hamilton's growth of 8% in the past 10 years is mostly due to amalgamation)

If you don't like a comparison to Mississauga, lets compare Hamilton to Calgary or Ottawa and try to figure out how to get businesses to relocate here. That's the point of the thread anyway.

Again, I don't think Hazel or anybody else for that matter from Misssissauga has anything to do with all that growth they've experienced the last few years there. Like I said earlier you could have a blow-up doll in her place and the results would have still been the same....the results would have still been the same because they are a suburb of Toronto and Toronto's International Airport is in Misssissauga. If Toronto's International Airport was in Hamilton you would have seen the same type of increase in population, tax revenues and fortune 500 companies relocating and setting up shop here in Hamilton.

[yyzer]

Flar - I think one of the reasons for strong reaction to Missy is because of articles like this Spec one...trying to pass it off as a real city. anyone whose head isn't stuck up their backside knows that it's not a city. not in the slightest. it's just an extension of suburban TO with TO's airport.
They need to stop making this crap mayor sound like some hero. She was completely clueless while in office and history will bear that out when it's all said and done.
My 2 year old could be mayor of Missy and had the same results.

o.k.....so why all the hostility, raisethehammer??

I lived in Toronto for many years, in the Annex, Forest Hill, and Etobicoke, then my wife and I moved to Mississauga....after about a year of adjustment, I grew to love the place, and would never move back...

But wait....we have family in Hamilton, and visit there often....so are fairly familiar with the city...

Imo Hamilton and Mississauga are as different as night and day...

Hamilton - old, blue collar, economically depressed, mostly traditional anglo-saxon/European Ontarians, and if I may say, a bit desperate and fearful of missing out on the future - judging by some of the comments on this forum...

Mississauga - new, white collar, full of new immigrants especially Asian, economically booming, and definitely confident of its future...

The demographics are completely different...

Is Mississauga a real city? of course it is, but at 704,000 population, it is also one heck of a big suburb of Toronto....

Your comments about Hazel are completely wrong, and unjustified...if there is one mayor in the Golden Horseshoe who 'walks the walk' it is Hazel...she makes a habit of being right, is pro-business, and pro-development...so Mississauga was born in the 1970's....a time when ideas about 'progress' were different than today, and when 'urban sprawl' was hardly even thought of...she nevertheless has done a splendid job in building the city....I would take her any day over a bumbler like David Miller...

And let me tell you, pal...I have met Hazel on a few occasions, and she is really, really tough...raisethehammer,to quote an old movie, "she has got chunks of guys like you in her stool"....

I still like Hamilton, though....

[Boomtown_Hamilton]

Originally Posted by yyzer

o.k.....so why all the hostility, raisethehammer??

I lived in Toronto for many years, in the Annex, Forest Hill, and Etobicoke, then my wife and I moved to Mississauga....after about a year of adjustment, I grew to love the place, and would never move back...

But wait....we have family in Hamilton, and visit there often....so are fairly familiar with the city...

Imo Hamilton and Mississauga are as different as night and day...

Hamilton - old, blue collar, economically depressed, mostly traditional anglo-saxon/European Ontarians, and if I may say, a bit desperate and fearful of missing out on the future - judging by some of the comments on this forum...

Mississauga - new, white collar, full of new immigrants especially Asian, economically booming, and definitely confident of its future...

The demographics are completely different...

Is Mississauga a real city? of course it is, but at 704,000 population, it is also one heck of a big suburb of Toronto....

Your comments about Hazel are completely wrong, and unjustified...if there is one mayor in the Golden Horseshoe who 'walks the walk' it is Hazel...she makes a habit of being right, is pro-business, and pro-development...so Mississauga was born in the 1970's....a time when ideas about 'progress' were different than today, and when 'urban sprawl' was hardly even thought of...she nevertheless has done a splendid job in building the city....I would take her any day over a bumbler like David Miller...

And let me tell you, pal...I have met Hazel on a few occasions, and she is really, really tough...raisethehammer,to quote an old movie, "she has got chunks of guys like you in her stool"....

I still like Hamilton, though....

How exactly is Hamilton "economically depressed" as you put it? Could you please cite some specific examples? Canadian Business magazine last month came out with their rankings as who they thought were the best cities in Canada to do business in and Hamilton came in 3rd place overall in English Canada....funny thing is I tried to see where on the list Misssissauga was ranked but did not find them anywhere until someone pointed out to me that Mississauga was not listed because they combined Mississauga with Toronto and Toronto was waaaaaaaaay down the list.

[Boomtown_Hamilton]

OK correction....Mississauga is on the list...Hamilton was 3rd, Misssissauga was 16th and Toronto came in at #25 in English Canada.