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  #7261  
Old Posted Oct 25, 2008, 7:13 PM
urbanboy urbanboy is offline
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I think all of the metro region should work together to strengthen the three historic urban centers: Salt Lake City, Ogden and Provo. These suburban developments weaken our urban economic strongholds, therefore the entire state economy is also weakened.
     
     
  #7262  
Old Posted Oct 25, 2008, 8:34 PM
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I agree with you 100 percent, Urbanboy. These proposals are absurd. They just can't be serious. How could suburban cities that can't even fill up their one-story strip malls think they can fill an office tower.
It will sound haughty, but I honestly don't understand suburban thinking most of the time. If they want tall structures (which seems to be the only real motiviation) why don't they build walls with Watchtowers so they can keep the minorities out?
     
     
  #7263  
Old Posted Oct 25, 2008, 11:46 PM
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skyscraper sprawl

I also agree 100% with Urban Boy. All of these maverick developers and Mayor Tom Dolan of Sandy all share an egocentric view of themselves. We should strengthen the three existing urban cores. We can't have anybody and their dog continue to think they can just build whatever, anywhere. The gateway was barely just out of the downtown core, and it had a huge impact on the two existing downtown malls by sucking the vitality out of them. That's why we have the massive and very expensive City Creek Center development. If the LDS church didn't step up, that area would continue to decline because of the Gateway and other growing suburban centers. The suburban centers should grow of course, but not at the arrogant proposals like the Proscenium in Sandy. Let's hope the financial crisis sends a shockwave and knocks those tower to a third of their proposed height. It seems like everybody is trying to play king of the hill at the sacrifice of ruining the vibrancy of the capital city.
     
     
  #7264  
Old Posted Oct 26, 2008, 2:38 AM
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Suburban Highrises or No

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Originally Posted by Orlando View Post
I also agree 100% with Urban Boy. All of these maverick developers and Mayor Tom Dolan of Sandy all share an egocentric view of themselves. We should strengthen the three existing urban cores. We can't have anybody and their dog continue to think they can just build whatever, anywhere. The gateway was barely just out of the downtown core, and it had a huge impact on the two existing downtown malls by sucking the vitality out of them. That's why we have the massive and very expensive City Creek Center development. If the LDS church didn't step up, that area would continue to decline because of the Gateway and other growing suburban centers. The suburban centers should grow of course, but not at the arrogant proposals like the Proscenium in Sandy. Let's hope the financial crisis sends a shockwave and knocks those tower to a third of their proposed height. It seems like everybody is trying to play king of the hill at the sacrifice of ruining the vibrancy of the capital city.
Orlando: I don't like the proposed Proscenium project in Sandy because, like you, I think it is an unrealistic ego trip. But I think dismissing all suburban high rises out of hand isn't realistic either, nor makes good economic sense. For example, the office space boom in the Hill AFB area is realistic because of the growth of the missions the base is taking on. The I-15 corridor next to the base is the only sensible location to build. With limited land, it makes sense to go up. It doesn't make sense to push the office space to support Hill to downtown Odgen or SLC. Why add 7-8 miles of distance in one direction and 25 miles in the other direction?

There is also cost. While land in downtown Odgen is relatively cheap, land adjacent to the SLC CBD is not. There are also the issues of upgrading the existing infrastructures to meet future demand. It is much more expensive to lay broadband fiber optic cables in an urban setting than in a suburban setting...much less to deal with. Add to that the need for much higher and better quality power supplies, parking, and all other critical utilities. My guess is that the cost to develop high-rises in a suburban settings is far cheaper than urban settings. With the exception of Manhattan, I cannot think of one major urban center where significant high-rises haven't sprung up on the periphery of the central business district, instead of downtown. There are few businesses with profit margins high enough to fill downtown high-rise development. With the crunch in the financial industry, there are going to be less.

Until architecture and engineering figures out how to build high-rises in an urban setting as economically as those in a suburban setting, things will not change. Possibly the answer lies in the opposite direction...if urban areas become much more desirable and affordable to live in, then a boom in high-rise office construction may happen to be proximate to the labor pool. Maybe we have things backward. Maybe we should be focusing on habitats before offices in our urban areas?????
     
     
  #7265  
Old Posted Oct 26, 2008, 4:18 AM
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Leonardo banking on 'Body Worlds'

By Jared Page
Deseret News

Leonardo officials remain optimistic the art, science and culture center will receive the $10.2 million in voter-approved bond money, despite Salt Lake City's legal opinion that it's not obligated to release the funds.

Giles said he believes that progress, combined with the success of the ongoing "Body Worlds" exhibit at The Leonardo, will prove to city officials that the bond money should be issued.

Leonardo spokeswoman Lisa Davis said "tens of thousands" of visitors have viewed the exhibit since its Sept. 19 opening.

"We started strong and it's stayed strong," Davis said.


http://deseretnews.com/article/0,5143,705257898,00.html
     
     
  #7266  
Old Posted Oct 26, 2008, 5:39 PM
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Sorenson gift to launch U. tech complex
University of Utah



A $15 million donation from the Sorenson Legacy Foundation will begin transformation of what has been a leisurely pastime for University of Utah students into the future of Utah's investment in technology research.

Instead of an 18-hole, 11-acre golf course, which currently separates much of the medical and technological research and development happening at the U., Sorenson's donation sets the stage for a new four-building complex as well as at least a dozen intramural playing fields, including room for lacrosse and rugby matches, and possibly a new running track


http://deseretnews.com/article/0,5143,705258110,00.html

USTAR building gets $15M boost

The new Sorenson building will be purposefully situated to connect the med school and its associated facilities against the foothills with the engineering complex to the west. It will be the first structure on a quadrangle proposed for the golf course, which will see its last round played out next month.

Lord Aeck & Sargent Architecture of Atlanta is designing the facility with local support from Prescott Muir Architects. It will contain a 20,000-square-foot nanofabrication facility to support U. chemists and engineers who are working on the next generation of biosensors and drug-delivery systems. The U. intends to break ground in late spring and open the facility by 2012.


http://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_10819779?source=rss
     
     
  #7267  
Old Posted Oct 26, 2008, 5:40 PM
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skyscraper sprawl counter argument

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Originally Posted by RFPCME View Post
Orlando: I don't like the proposed Proscenium project in Sandy because, like you, I think it is an unrealistic ego trip. But I think dismissing all suburban high rises out of hand isn't realistic either, nor makes good economic sense. For example, the office space boom in the Hill AFB area is realistic because of the growth of the missions the base is taking on. The I-15 corridor next to the base is the only sensible location to build. With limited land, it makes sense to go up. It doesn't make sense to push the office space to support Hill to downtown Odgen or SLC. Why add 7-8 miles of distance in one direction and 25 miles in the other direction?

There is also cost. While land in downtown Odgen is relatively cheap, land adjacent to the SLC CBD is not. There are also the issues of upgrading the existing infrastructures to meet future demand. It is much more expensive to lay broadband fiber optic cables in an urban setting than in a suburban setting...much less to deal with. Add to that the need for much higher and better quality power supplies, parking, and all other critical utilities. My guess is that the cost to develop high-rises in a suburban settings is far cheaper than urban settings. With the exception of Manhattan, I cannot think of one major urban center where significant high-rises haven't sprung up on the periphery of the central business district, instead of downtown. There are few businesses with profit margins high enough to fill downtown high-rise development. With the crunch in the financial industry, there are going to be less.

Until architecture and engineering figures out how to build high-rises in an urban setting as economically as those in a suburban setting, things will not change. Possibly the answer lies in the opposite direction...if urban areas become much more desirable and affordable to live in, then a boom in high-rise office construction may happen to be proximate to the labor pool. Maybe we have things backward. Maybe we should be focusing on habitats before offices in our urban areas?????
You're probably right that land is less expensive in the suburbs and much easier to acquire. However, it is probably not necessarily cheaper to build including all of the necessary infrastructure. Though land maybe cheap, infrastructure to support is definitely not. Look at the new Real stadium and all the infrastructure they had to to do with new roads, parking, untilities, etc. That finance deal was a huge fiasco by Mayor Tom Dolan. Existing Urban centers already have most of the needed infrastructure, such as roads, highways, transportation, services(shops, food/restaurants, entertainment), and utilities. All of this is a lot of $$$$$.
     
     
  #7268  
Old Posted Oct 26, 2008, 8:23 PM
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I have mixed feelings about the Clearfield proposal.

To start off, I would like to point out that the article states the plan allows for towers "up to" 22 stories. So there is a great possibility that whatever is eventually and actually built will never even realize that height possibility. Ultimately, the market will decide what height and density that site can realistically support. I doubt that will ever be 22 stories in Clearfield, Utah.

I do, however, support the idea of something being built there given its prime location next to the Frontrunner station, halfway between two I-15 freeway exits, and within a stone's throw of two of the state's largest employment centers (Hill Air Force Base and the Freeport Center). When looked at objectively, development of this land is a no brainer. And 60 acres next to a commuter rail station as a virtual tabula raza really opens up the potential for something great. Not just for Clearfield but for the entire area. Since the land is bound to be developed, it would be a shame to see it end up as some low-slung, generic retail shopping center or a few hundred single-family homes, which is pretty much par for the course for the area. Given all of your criticisms, I still would take a town like Clearfield dreaming big and falling a little short (I'd say 10 to 12 story buildings are more realistic) any day than that same town never even dreaming big at all (and ending up with some sad suburban piece of infill). A mid-to-high density TOD is clearly the best choice for the development of this land, and that seems exactly what they are proposing. Even more encouraging is to see that the metropolitan transit authority, the city, and the developer are all working together to ensure that its done right. Let's hold of until we some some actual models or proposals before we start throwing out off-the-cuff judgments. They may just propose something really great. They may not. We'll see soon enough, and then your assessments will have more value.

On to the Salt Lake City vs. suburbs issue. I too want to see a majority of development, especially highrises, to occur primarily downtown. They help to create that urban synergy that Salt Lake City really needs, help keep sprawl at bay, and even rub each of our geeky egos here on the site so we can feel proud of a great skyline and impress all of our neighboring western metropolises and make them feel all jealous of what a cool downtown we have. lol. In a lot of ways we already do have a great CBD, and focusing towers downtown will only further that. That said, suburban development - even in these higher densities - still has its place, if done right. This one especially IMHO. Let's run over a few:

I don't support the Proscenium. Any Broadway-style theater belongs in Salt Lake City - nowhere else. The project is too big for its britches. The placement of the towers does not address the street or pedestrian traffic; it does not tie the development with others nearby to promote walkability. It makes a weak attempt at being transit-oriented - clearly relying more on freeway accessibility and visibility than TRAX traffic and accessibility. Most importantly, it does nothing to stir the spirit and everything to stroke Sandy's ego. Garbage in my mind.

I think The Point is super cool but I'm leary of trying to erect an entire city basically in BFE. Some may say Clearfield is BFE but the aforementioned site is part of a contiguous urban/suburban developed area. The Point is dropped literally in the middle of nowhere. Of course, that's its greatest strength and its greatest weakness in my eyes. The strength being this large piece of land is the only way Gehry could have such free reign in his vision and truly realize his desire to address and mimic the unique Utah landscape in a development. The placement of this development is what makes it truly beautiful. The first weakness of the placement, to me, lies in the fact that it sadly "leapfrogs" over so much urban fabric and only contributes to a the sprawling Wasatch Front. I'd like to see this project realized either closer to Salt Lake or closer to Provo, not at the empty space in between. The other weakness is that it clearly relies solely on freeway traffic. Utah County already has a bottlenecked I-15 corridor. Building such a huge development at this point of the mountain will only make that so much worse, and the millions of car traffic visits a year (Anderson predicts the development will be one of Utah's largest tourist attractions) will only make the valley's air pollution problem worse. It will be interesting to see how this one ends up for Utah.

Market Station is cool by me. The placement clearly relies on TRAX as primary access and it seems to be a true TOD to me. Although it would be great to see these buildings downtown, the development is still very central in the metropolitan area and is more infill than sprawl like the previous two projects I've discussed. I think eventually this project will be central to a new district in the Salt Lake area and will be a valuable and vibrant middle point between Sugarhouse and Downtown, especially after the introduction of a trolley system along 2100 South. Great project in my opinion.

The downside of all three of these Salt Lake MSA projects, IMHO, is one thing - target market. I think truly great development creates an inclusive community, not an exclusive one. A place where a well-heeled doctor or lawyer and can stroll out their front door for a morning walk and wave hello to their child's teacher sipping coffee on her front porch down the street. A place where the prominent local businessman runs into a local police officer on his day off because they shop at the same local grocer. They live in the same COMMUNITY. They're not separated by miles and miles, entire zipcodes, coded entrygates, and shopping centers that are designed for people who are more or less in the exact same socioeconomic branch as them which is the status quo for most of the Wasatch Front.

All of these projects cater to only one demographic - the rich! I'm not saying the should all have government subsidized, transitional housing or anything, but these really are all for the rich. I think all the projects are cool as hell, but I sure can't afford to live in any of them. I'd shop in them, sure (I like expensive clothes), but I'll have to drive to get there with the exception of Market Station likely. The same could be said for nearly all of the downtown projects under construction as well, including City Creek Center. You can't touch anything for under 300k. And if, God forbid, you actually have a family or children (which most Utahns do) forget about anything for under 600k in any of these projects. So where does that leave the rest of us?

Of course, I understand why they're so pricey - many reasons! In most cases, the land was acquired at quite a cost, and these developers need these projects to pencil. Centrally located land is expensive. Steel construction is expensive. Investors and the returns they expect are expensive. Developer's own tastes and profit expectations are expensive; ideally, when the project's built and sold out, the developer can buy a nice boat to cruise around Mexico. In turn, the homes are expensive. Nobody's in development to lose money. Then there's the prestige thing - everybody wants to be responsible for building the next Beverly Hills. Everyone wants to brag that a Huntsman, Eccles, member of the Quorum of the Seventy, or any other upper crust member of the Utah elite bought at THEIR project. Building a quality, high-density project for the rest of us just isn't glamorous, and it doesn't make as much money. I understand this. But that doesn't mean it shouldn't be done.

That's where the Clearfield project has some great potential, in my eyes. While we've yet to see a proposal, and I could be wrong, I believe UTA, Clearfield, and the development team will see that the high-density market in the metro area is saturated with high-end product. Furthermore, UTA received the land in a swap so there's no high overhead on this one. And UTA doesn't need huge windfall profits to build this thing - they're more interested in breaking even (or making a small profit) and building ridership than satisfying greedy investors. Then there's the target market - there are no Hunstmans, Eccles, or Quorum members living in or around Clearfield, nor are they expressing much desire to up and move there. There are, however, thousands upon thousands of workforce jobs within a 3-mile radius at HAFB and Freeport Center, with more coming as Falcon Hill ramping up development. These jobs range from $30,000 to over $100,000 per year and its just likely that some of these people may want the convenience and experience of living in a more urban environment - especially out-of-state transplants that are common in this area b/c of the Air Force Base. But moving to SLC to get that experience doesn't make sense. This project could provide that option to thousands of area workers without the high cost and extra travel time that moving downtown would provide while lowering commute times. Not only would area workforce find this project attractive, but those working downtown at Fidelity, KPMG, Church Headquarters, or any other downtown employers making salaries ranging from $40,000 to $70,000 who may want a nice urban living experience but can't quite afford any of the product being built downtown would find this a very attractive option given the easy commuter rail access to the city.

I have a feeling the players in this will realize that catering to this market is essential to make this project successful, because it is! Top management at UTA isn't stupid (they have built one of the most successful transit authorities in the US) and I doubt they will fail to recognize this. In the end, Clearfield City gets to build up its reputation, UTA gets more riders, consumers/workers get more urban housing stock at and attainable price, and the MSA gets a nice piece of infill - sounds like a win/win to me.

Thoughts?? Sorry for the rant, but I feel like it all had to be said. Grazie!



Let's keep our fingers crossed until we see a proposal, but I have good feelings.

Last edited by UTAZLoVer; Oct 26, 2008 at 9:00 PM.
     
     
  #7269  
Old Posted Oct 27, 2008, 6:11 AM
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wow that was one long rant. LOL
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2. "LDS Church Office Building" 28-stories 420 FT 1973
3. "111 South Main" 24-stories 387 FT 2016
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5. "Key Bank Tower" 27-stories 351 FT 1976
     
     
  #7270  
Old Posted Oct 27, 2008, 1:42 PM
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Utaz,

I think one item you hit is key: downtown SLC should be a very diverse community and include families with kids. Not many downtowns take kids into consideration during the planning process. I really think that the key to getting more people downtown is to build developments that include facilities for kids. That may be affordable 3-4 bedroom units or open spaces or even something as simple as painting a hopskotch on the sidewalk. Vancouver has done a good job of it, but virtually every urban core in the US is losing kids and families. The end product may be a diverse group of people in terms of race, incomes, etc. but the diversity is diminished by not including a major sector of our population.
     
     
  #7271  
Old Posted Oct 27, 2008, 3:34 PM
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wow that was one long rant. LOL
I know, I know. I'm sorry!
     
     
  #7272  
Old Posted Oct 27, 2008, 4:09 PM
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Originally Posted by UTAZLoVer View Post

Then there's the target market - there are no Hunstmans, Eccles, or Quorum members living in or around Clearfield, nor are they expressing much desire to up and move there. There are, however, thousands upon thousands of workforce jobs within a 3-mile radius at HAFB and Freeport Center, with more coming as Falcon Hill ramping up development. These jobs range from $30,000 to over $100,000 per year and its just likely that some of these people may want the convenience and experience of living in a more urban environment - especially out-of-state transplants that are common in this area b/c of the Air Force Base. But moving to SLC to get that experience doesn't make sense. This project could provide that option to thousands of area workers without the high cost and extra travel time that moving downtown would provide while lowering commute times.
There aren't any Huntsmans or Eccles, but Clearfield does have an Arkhitektor
     
     
  #7273  
Old Posted Oct 27, 2008, 4:14 PM
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There aren't any Huntsmans or Eccles, but Clearfield does have an Arkhitektor
Clearfield had a UTAZLoVer once, back when he was President of the French Club at Clearfield High School.
     
     
  #7274  
Old Posted Oct 27, 2008, 5:18 PM
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I know, I know. I'm sorry!

No worries.
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1. "Wells Fargo Building" 24-stories 422 FT 1998
2. "LDS Church Office Building" 28-stories 420 FT 1973
3. "111 South Main" 24-stories 387 FT 2016
4. "99 West" 30-stories 375 FT 2011
5. "Key Bank Tower" 27-stories 351 FT 1976
     
     
  #7275  
Old Posted Oct 27, 2008, 10:54 PM
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Performing arts theater would take up much of Block 70

By Barbara Rattle
The Enterprise

The Utah Performance Center on Main proposed for downtown Salt lake City will likely encompass the bulk of Block 70 from 135 S. Main northward.

On Oct. 16, Salt Lake City Mayor Ralph Becker announced that the city's redevelopment agency had inked an agreement with two property development arms of the LDS Church -- Property Reserve Inc. and Suburban Land Reserve -- to exclusively negotiate the purchase of the former Newspaper Agency Corp. (NAC) building at 135 S. Main, which would serve as the estimated $81.5 million, 2,400 seat theater's primary entrance.

An artist's rendering on the Downtown Rising Web site indicates the theater would also consume the three buildings due north of the former NAC structure -- the former Inkley's building, the former Museum of Utah Art and History building and the former Prudential Savings and Loan Building, if not more.

The church and the city -- mostly the church -- own all the buildings between Regent Street and Main Street between the former Tribune building and 100 South, Becker said. The RDA's exclusive negotiations with Property Reserve Inc and Suburban Land Reserve extend to those structures as well.

The Deseret News building and the Brownstone Building on 100 South are not part of the negotiations.

According to the final report on the project by the Downtown Theater Action Group, several of the existing structures would require complete or partial demolition to accomodate the new theater, designed to attract first-run Broadway touring shows, provide additional options for the likes of Ballet West and the Utah Opera and attract nationally prominent music and comedy acts.

"We have worked with the Utah Heritage Foundation," Becker said, "and we don't anticipate, based on our discussions, that we have any issues associated with the buildings of any historic significance" that might have to be razed.

Becker also said the city is negotiating with Property Reserve Inc. "for a joint development that would include the entire property that would be the performing arts center and multi-use development.
     
     
  #7276  
Old Posted Oct 28, 2008, 4:35 AM
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regent street as main entrance??????

Am I misreading all the information? I keep hearing that the main entrance, will be from Regent Street. Is this correct? That's basically an alley. Why in all of the reasons for doing this project, would you want your main entrance to be in an alley? You have that huge ugly parking structure that it would face, and why wouldn't you want a great architectural statment on Main Street instead? Please, someone tell me I am misunderstanding all of this. It seems like SLC is trying to underwhelm the public as much as possible, by tucking this into a bunch of existing buildings, and its main entrance in an alley. For all the trouble of doing this, why would you?
     
     
  #7277  
Old Posted Oct 28, 2008, 5:07 AM
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The article in the Enterprise says that the entrance would most likely be on Main Street at 135 South.
     
     
  #7278  
Old Posted Oct 28, 2008, 5:04 PM
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The entrance will be on both main and Regent Street.
__________________
1. "Wells Fargo Building" 24-stories 422 FT 1998
2. "LDS Church Office Building" 28-stories 420 FT 1973
3. "111 South Main" 24-stories 387 FT 2016
4. "99 West" 30-stories 375 FT 2011
5. "Key Bank Tower" 27-stories 351 FT 1976
     
     
  #7279  
Old Posted Oct 28, 2008, 7:13 PM
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Wow...

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Originally Posted by scottharding View Post
I agree with you 100 percent, Urbanboy. These proposals are absurd. They just can't be serious. How could suburban cities that can't even fill up their one-story strip malls think they can fill an office tower.
It will sound haughty, but I honestly don't understand suburban thinking most of the time. If they want tall structures (which seems to be the only real motiviation) why don't they build walls with Watchtowers so they can keep the minorities out?
If you really look at almost all of the major urban areas you will find that while you criticize, it is not uncommon.

I love this line "How could suburban cities that can't even fill up their one-story strip malls think they can fill an office tower. " You are kidding right?

Suburban cities are not people. they happen to be part of the core of the area. A high rise located anywhere, be it city or suburb, is a contribution.

How can you say they will not have a use for it. Guess what? All of those piddly malls were the same ghastly mistake every town, city or urban area made.

This is only my opinion but every urban area has a core downtown. The point is to strengthen it. Concentrating all of the high rise construction in one area is not what makes a downtown strong. It is the people.

I really think that it is because SLC is rising like a rocket. No one is used to the potential of it all. It is not an all in one proposition.

I have always been amazed at how SLC is developing when I get back. This is excellent. Yet, to focus on the placement of buildings and how they have the nerve to possibly end up in another location is absolutely hilarious at the least.
     
     
  #7280  
Old Posted Oct 28, 2008, 9:56 PM
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Drove past the Peery Hotel building. Dang, that is not a good color for that building. Not what I would have chosen. I will grab a shot of it this weekend.
     
     
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