Gore Park

[BCTed]

Originally Posted by raisethehammer

you don't need to direct any of my comments towards specific posters.
Unless you're looking to simply stir up trouble. I didn't say a thing towards Bob.
My comment simply stated that we would have heard by now if homeless people were barging into restaurants and kicking in windows. Perhaps it happened once in the past 5 years, or 15 years?? maybe never? the point is, I dine exclusively downtown and can't remember ever being panhandled at the front door of a restaurant, let alone inside.

So what do you think Bob Bratina stands to gain from posting such incorrect information? Is he mistaken or is he lying?

[crhayes]

Originally Posted by ryan_mcgreal

In other words, sweep them under the rug.



"Low lives"? You do know they're human beings, right? As my grandmother used to say, "There but for the grace of God go you and I."



Concession Street is actually quite a hip urban centre - arguably the only such destination on the Mountain.



You seem to have drawn exactly the wrong conclusion in your contrast between Toronto and Hamilton.

If Toronto has more "sketchy" people (really compassionate pejorative, by the way) but still more "normal" people, it follows that the solution isn't so much to get rid, somehow, of the "sketchy" people but rather to figure out how to draw still more "normal" people.

After all, the "sketchy" people in Toronto haven't scared off the "normal" people - far from it. The only reason the "sketchy" people in Gore Park are particularly noticeable today is that they aren't surrounded by gobs of "normal" people going about their business.

Summary: the presence of "sketchy" people isn't the real problem; it's merely the predictable symptom of an urban strategy that for decades has drained investment out of the downtown and decanted citizens to the suburbs.

Figure out how to get money and people flowing back into downtown, and two things will happen:

1. The same absolute number of "sketchy" people will comprise a much smaller share of the total and, hence, a much less intimidating presence; and

2. The absolute increase in investment, innovation and opportunity will draw some of those people out of poverty and into gainful employment, especially if the revitalization is undertaken in such a way as to provide paths out of poverty and avoid ghettoizing poor people in undesirable conglomerates.

In the case of Toronto, there are plenty of businesses and shops to attract "normal" people, which we don't have here in Hamilton. And, it is my opinion, that as long as sketchy people are in Gore Park it will limit it's attractiveness and therefore potential investors. So yes, my comparison between Hamilton and Toronto stands.

As far as concession goes, to me it looks dumpy. I would much rather go to any place on Upper James - another hip urban center? Probably even more so than concession.

And yes lowlives are human beings as well, and I am sure some of there are there unjustly. However, many of them dug their own graves. Not only that, but there are resources made available to them that can help them get back on their feet and it's obvious that they do not utlilize any of them.

[crhayes]

Originally Posted by adam

One incident certainly doesn't mean its an escalating problem.

True, but by increasing problem I dont think they are specifically referring to incidents of homeless people busting into restaurants. I think they just mean the aggressiveness of those people downtown is increasingly getting worse.

[ryan_mcgreal]

Originally Posted by crhayes

In the case of Toronto, there are plenty of businesses and shops to attract "normal" people, which we don't have here in Hamilton. And, it is my opinion, that as long as sketchy people are in Gore Park it will limit it's attractiveness and therefore potential investors. So yes, my comparison between Hamilton and Toronto stands.

With all due respect, you're still missing the point. What is Toronto doing differently than Hamilton that it has "plenty of businesses and shops to attract 'normal' people"? The difference is not that Toronto has swept away its "sketchy" people, since they're still present. It must be something else.

If Hamilton wants to revitalize its downtown core, we need to spend less time worrying about the presence of "undesirables" and more time worrying about the 'something else' that is the real issue.

[raisethehammer]

Originally Posted by FairHamilton

Ah, you told me to "get real" for something Bob wrote on his website (fully credited in my post). No need to tell me to "get real" tell it to the person who wrote it.

And what trouble am I stirring up, and with whom??

I've never seen an atom split, but they tell me they can do it............

I was saying 'get real' to the idea that this happens downtown and is such a big problem.
You know that.

[raisethehammer]

Originally Posted by ryan_mcgreal

With all due respect, you're still missing the point. What is Toronto doing differently than Hamilton that it has "plenty of businesses and shops to attract 'normal' people"? The difference is not that Toronto has swept away its "sketchy" people, since they're still present. It must be something else.

If Hamilton wants to revitalize its downtown core, we need to spend less time worrying about the presence of "undesirables" and more time worrying about the 'something else' that is the real issue.

'something else' number 1: bloody highways that make it near impossible and darned un-enjoyable for human beings to be walking the streets. Downtown retail needs people walking in and out, not cars and trucks flying past.

[flar]

Concession Street is sketchy now? We should do something about all those doctors and other "medical professionals" loitering up there.

[raisethehammer]

I'm starting to think that we have some racists on the board.
Like downtown, Concession is VERY multicultural. Maybe that's the 'sketch factor' that some of the posters don't like???

[highwater]

Originally Posted by crhayes

As far as concession goes, to me it looks dumpy. I would much rather go to any place on Upper James - another hip urban center? Probably even more so than concession.

OMG. This comment reminds me of a story a teacher friend of mine told me. He was taking his class of very affluent kids from Vaughn to a concert at the Oakville Centre. As they were walking along Lakeshore in downtown Oakville, one of his students turned to him and asked "Is this the slums?" Downtown Oakville! Can you imagine? It's like Rodeo Drive down there these days. But to a kid raised in the maze of monster homes, cul de sacs, and power centres that is Vaughn, a dense, walkable downtown looked like the slums.

[crhayes]

Originally Posted by flar

Concession Street is sketchy now? We should do something about all those doctors and other "medical professionals" loitering up there.

I never said Concession was sketchy, I said to me it looks dumpy.

Originally Posted by highwater

OMG. This comment reminds me of a story a teacher friend of mine told me. He was taking his class of very affluent kids from Vaughn to a concert at the Oakville Centre. As they were walking along Lakeshore in downtown Oakville, one of his students turned to him and asked "Is this the slums?" Downtown Oakville! Can you imagine? It's like Rodeo Drive down there these days. But to a kid raised in the maze of monster homes, cul de sacs, and power centres that is Vaughn, a dense, walkable downtown looked like the slums.

First of all, I said "to me" which implies that it is my opinion. I am entitled to my own opinion and am not stating a fact. I think Concession looks dumpy; if you don't that's great!

Originally Posted by ryan_mcgreal

With all due respect, you're still missing the point. What is Toronto doing differently than Hamilton that it has "plenty of businesses and shops to attract 'normal' people"? The difference is not that Toronto has swept away its "sketchy" people, since they're still present. It must be something else.

If Hamilton wants to revitalize its downtown core, we need to spend less time worrying about the presence of "undesirables" and more time worrying about the 'something else' that is the real issue.

You are not understanding what I am saying. Maybe back when people started investing in downtown Toronto there weren't a lot of sketchy people there, and it was the fact that it became such a busy area that attracted the sketchies there.

I never said they are the only problem. I am sure there are others, such as high property taxes for business etc. But I do believe they are part of the problem, and without them there more people would be attracted downtown and potentially more businesses as well.

I don't understand how people can argue that Gore isn't better off without them. I never said that it was a HUGE problem, I was merely stating that Gore would be better off without those skethcies.

Originally Posted by raisethehammer

I'm starting to think that we have some racists on the board.
Like downtown, Concession is VERY multicultural. Maybe that's the 'sketch factor' that some of the posters don't like???

What is your problem? Why would you even bring race into this? It was never mentioned previously. I go to Mac where there is a MASSIVE amount of ethnic diversity. I am definitely the farthest thing from a racist. In fact I am caucasian and I am part of a club called Asian Focus, my three best friends are asians and I have a countless number of black and brown friends.

Not only that, but the only homeless people I have seen downtown are caucasion - and most of the people I see roaming concession (on a daily basis) are caucasion as well. I guess I am racist against my own race?

[FairHamilton]

Originally Posted by raisethehammer

I was saying 'get real' to the idea that this happens downtown and is such a big problem.
You know that.

So if you weren't directing it at me, then you were directing it at what Bob Bratina wrote. But somehow you think I'm the one accused of bring him into the thread (beyond re-posting pertinent info from a councillor's website).

Do want a shovel? It helps to dig the hole.

[oldcoote]

Originally Posted by raisethehammer

'something else' number 1: bloody highways that make it near impossible and darned un-enjoyable for human beings to be walking the streets. Downtown retail needs people walking in and out, not cars and trucks flying past.

Above all, the core needs to be gentrified. Unless you introduce some higher end residential into the equation, it will always be a maze of bingo parlours, cash depots, dollar stores and 'undesirables'.

Give people a reason to be downtown. Because changing roads to two-way ain't gonna do it by itself.

[crhayes]

Originally Posted by oldcoote

Above all, the core needs to be gentrified. Unless you introduce some higher end residential into the equation, it will always be a maze of bingo parlours, cash depots, dollar stores and 'undesirables'.

Give people a reason to be downtown. Because changing roads to two-way ain't gonna do it by itself.

Yes that is true. I think that if they move the buses out of Gore and turn it into a pedestrian only area it will be a start. However they NEED something in Gore park to attract people there. We need something magnificent, like a big waterfall statue or a big Ferris Wheel or something. Another idea I had it if they built a lookout tower in Gore Park...something tall and beautiful that would allow people to go up and look over the city.

http://web.downtownvan.com/index.asp?p=11
-Obviously not built in this fashion, but you get the idea.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:London_Eye_Twilight_April_2006.jpg

I am not suggesting a ferris wheel to copy other cities - lol. But we need something crazy - and not just a cheap immitation - in order to be an icon for downtown.

[Millstone]

Originally Posted by raisethehammer

I'm starting to think that we have some racists on the board.
Like downtown, Concession is VERY multicultural. Maybe that's the 'sketch factor' that some of the posters don't like???

No, it's not "multicultural", it's sketchtown.

[highwater]

Originally Posted by crhayes

First of all, I said "to me" which implies that it is my opinion. I am entitled to my own opinion and am not stating a fact. I think Concession looks dumpy; if you don't that's great!

You stated your preference for the Upper James strip. The point of my story was that people who prefer suburban landscapes tend to regard dense walkable neighbourhoods as 'dumpy' or 'slummy' even when they objectively aren't, as in the case of downtown Oakville. You are entitled to your opinion, yes, but your opinion has been shaped by your preference for low-density, sprawling commercial strips, and is therefore no reflection on the reality of Concession St.

[crhayes]

Originally Posted by highwater

You stated your preference for the Upper James strip. The point of my story was that people who prefer suburban landscapes tend to regard dense walkable neighbourhoods as 'dumpy' or 'slummy' even when they objectively aren't, as in the case of downtown Oakville. You are entitled to your opinion, yes, but your opinion has been shaped by your preference for low-density, sprawling commercial strips, and is therefore no reflection on the reality of Concession St.

Maybe it is because I am younger...

I may have overstated the 'dumpiness' of Concession...it's not that bad. I think it's the overhead wires that kill it for me, and some of the buildings aren't kept up as nicely as others. Also that big empty blue building (what used to be Colour Your World) is an eyesore. Henderson is nice though as well as some of the apartments.

[highwater]

Originally Posted by crhayes

Maybe it is because I am younger...

Young, and open-minded.

[Jon Dalton]

Originally Posted by raisethehammer

some 'restaurant owner' is full of crap. We would have heard about it as a top story in all local media if homeless people were going into restaurants full of people, demanding food and money and kicking in the front window when turned away.
Get real.
Like you always tell everyone - don't believe everything you read.

Dude, this shit happens, I've seen it myself, and it isn't always in the paper. Let's give up pointless denial. You are right in that the problems in Gore Park are exaggerated, but you can't deny that there is a problem.

I also walk around all times of the night and haven't been assaulted. Not everyone has such luck.

[crhayes]

Originally Posted by highwater

Young, and open-minded.

Lol I am actually very open minded... I think my aspirations and expectations are just too high.

[omro]

OK, this is my comment, from an out of towner's perspective...

I walked down King towards Gore Park. It's smaller and narrower than I thought it was. It was a little before midday and it's pretty cold with the wind today. I wasn't going there for the purpose of commenting on this topic, but to find a part for a computer.

On one corner, the south west side of King and Hughson (at least I think it was, I wasn't paying that close attention to street signs), were a group of people that I wouldn't have felt too comfortable walking near, certainly not with a child. They seemed mostly white, mostly male and mostly unkempt (I will note that I didn't have my glasses on and while not majorly short sighted, the cold does make my eyes a little more blurry). No one seemed to be walking past them, except on the opposite of the streets and park.

I would imagine that people would have felt more comfortable in general, had they not been there as a group.