Gore Park

[BCTed]

Originally Posted by raisethehammer

I was almost mugged on the main drag in Miami Beach and downtown Boston (the main shopping strip downtown) for simply walking by and minding my own business.
My above description of my first visit to TO was on Yonge at Dundas.
Some of you need to do some traveling and I don't mean to St. Thomas or Tillsonburg.

So if more people on here were men of the world like you, the realization would hit that Gore Park is not actually a sketchy place and is in fact populated by a perfectly normal group of people. Is that roughly correct?

If I were better travelled and not such a rube, do you suppose that I would be inviting the fine Gore folk into my home for supper?

[geoff's two cents]

Originally Posted by go_leafs_go02

Tourists don't go to vancouver's east side or poorer parts of other cities, because there is nothing touristic or really to do there, and they're far away from local attractions generally.

Vancouver's east side is actually directly adjacent to the historic Gastown district, which is quite a tourist magnet. Point taken, however. The DTES is not Burrard and Georgia.

To be sure, a lot of what's on here sounds a tad xenophobic, which is probably due in part to the fact that mere text on a screen can be misleading.

I think there's also something of a tendency, however, to overstate the level of poverty and the extent of downtown blight in Hamilton. When we first arrived here, coming from the Kerrisdale area of Vancouver, we were actually quite shocked at the state of downtown. It's not that it's the worst we've seen by any stretch (Oshawa, for instance, feels more dangerous and looks more downtrodden; there's not much to do in Sudbury's downtown, and the lack of people traffic makes it feel less safe; so I've heard, the worst parts of Hamilton have nothing on the worst parts of Detroit or Baltimore, or the Vancouver DTES, which I've been to and around several times), however, but rather that our expectations were higher for Ontario's 3rd largest city (4th if you count Mississauga by itself, but then again, they don't even have a major newspaper of their own), "steeltown" or no.

There's also a very striking disconnect here with what it is now and what it once was. An early Canadian scientific journal rated Hamilton in the mid-1850s right up there with Montreal and Toronto in terms of culture and architecture, with the added advantage that Hamilton had the "primeval forest" of the escarpment. Hamilton captured the modernist imagination in a way similar to how Vancouver would decades later; the engineers and architects loved it here. Much of the old architecture from that era that is still around is very beautiful. Any way you slice it though, the centre of the city at King and James has lost a great deal.

As I said though, Hamilton's not as bad as it might appear on first sight to be. Believe it or not, the people "loitering" in the Gore are actually not as scary as many who wander all over Vancouver - meth has really caught on there, and the panhandlers are more aggressive. My girlfriend was propositioned in Jackson square while I was turned around, which was anything but pleasant, but it hasn't kept us from enjoying downtown. There was nothing quite like an Italian soda or coffee on the Infusions patio. The food here is also amazing and quite inexpensive - It just requires a little bit of effort to walk around and find the good places (vegetarian, Italian, German, Portuguese restaurants and a wonderful Portuguese bakery, great pubs, Vietnamese, Irish [if that's even a distinct category], Indian, some good breakfast places, and much more that we haven't had a chance to do). The waterfront, in my opinion, though it's got nothing on Vancouver, wins over Toronto's hands down. It just needs a good restaurant strip (which Toronto also doesn't really have). Walking from Princess Point to James North is a fantastic way to spend a sunny autumn afternoon.

Ancaster village, downtown Dundas, Westdale (less so, imo), and Waterdown (even less so, imo) certainly have their charms, and they're ok to walk around, but there's not nearly as much going on in these areas, they were too culturally homogeneous for us, and the opportunities for catching a film downtown, eating great, reasonably-priced food (imo, Ancaster's Coach and Lantern Pub excepted), watching live music, and accessing a waterfront were sorely lacking. Transit in these places (except Westdale) is also mediocre, at best.

For us, I think it was in part the effort we put in to getting to know the city that made it such an enjoyable experience. Other cities that on the face of it require less effort (Stratford and Victoria come to mind) might be decent for a walk, but are extremely overpriced and lacking in the cultural opportunities on offer here. We tired of those places very quickly.

Of course, as much as I like it here, I still hope the core has a brighter horizon. I hated not being able to buy clothes downtown and having to catch an uncomfortably full bus to Limeridge (ah, nothing like strip malls, parking lots, and 6-lane roads to warm the heart), and I sincerely hope that most of the places lining the north side of Gore give way to more reputable businesses. For a somewhat unsettling time, just watch the types of people going into and coming out of that adult film theatre. Not fun.

I don't know if I necessarily want the people in the Gore to go away (unless that pimp who cornered my girlfriend is among them). I rather wish that the people who currently have a serious complex about going downtown (there's lots of them here in Westdale - I'm sure there's lots more elsewhere) would actually give eating out, drinking coffee, and watching films and live music in the core a serious chance, and - hell, why not - give up their cars for a day and actually walk along James N. from downtown to the waterfront. I don't want the downtown to turn into a sanitized, white bread shopping mall, but those stores on the north side of King aren't going to go anywhere unless there's a greater mix of people downtown.

[raisethehammer]

Originally Posted by geoff's two cents

Vancouver's east side is actually directly adjacent to the historic Gastown district, which is quite a tourist magnet. Point taken, however. The DTES is not Burrard and Georgia.

To be sure, a lot of what's on here sounds a tad xenophobic, which is probably due in part to the fact that mere text on a screen can be misleading.

I think there's also something of a tendency, however, to overstate the level of poverty and the extent of downtown blight in Hamilton. When we first arrived here, coming from the Kerrisdale area of Vancouver, we were actually quite shocked at the state of downtown. It's not that it's the worst we've seen by any stretch (Oshawa, for instance, feels more dangerous and looks more downtrodden; there's not much to do in Sudbury's downtown, and the lack of people traffic makes it feel less safe; so I've heard, the worst parts of Hamilton have nothing on the worst parts of Detroit or Baltimore, or the Vancouver DTES, which I've been to and around several times), however, but rather that our expectations were higher for Ontario's 3rd largest city (4th if you count Mississauga by itself, but then again, they don't even have a major newspaper of their own), "steeltown" or no.

There's also a very striking disconnect here with what it is now and what it once was. An early Canadian scientific journal rated Hamilton in the mid-1850s right up there with Montreal and Toronto in terms of culture and architecture, with the added advantage that Hamilton had the "primeval forest" of the escarpment. Hamilton captured the modernist imagination in a way similar to how Vancouver would decades later; the engineers and architects loved it here. Much of the old architecture from that era that is still around is very beautiful. Any way you slice it though, the centre of the city at King and James has lost a great deal.

As I said though, Hamilton's not as bad as it might appear on first sight to be. Believe it or not, the people "loitering" in the Gore are actually not as scary as many who wander all over Vancouver - meth has really caught on there, and the panhandlers are more aggressive. My girlfriend was propositioned in Jackson square while I was turned around, which was anything but pleasant, but it hasn't kept us from enjoying downtown. There was nothing quite like an Italian soda or coffee on the Infusions patio. The food here is also amazing and quite inexpensive - It just requires a little bit of effort to walk around and find the good places (vegetarian, Italian, German, Portuguese restaurants and a wonderful Portuguese bakery, great pubs, Vietnamese, Irish [if that's even a distinct category], Indian, some good breakfast places, and much more that we haven't had a chance to do). The waterfront, in my opinion, though it's got nothing on Vancouver, wins over Toronto's hands down. It just needs a good restaurant strip (which Toronto also doesn't really have). Walking from Princess Point to James North is a fantastic way to spend a sunny autumn afternoon.

Ancaster village, downtown Dundas, Westdale (less so, imo), and Waterdown (even less so, imo) certainly have their charms, and they're ok to walk around, but there's not nearly as much going on in these areas, they were too culturally homogeneous for us, and the opportunities for catching a film downtown, eating great, reasonably-priced food (imo, Ancaster's Coach and Lantern Pub excepted), watching live music, and accessing a waterfront were sorely lacking. Transit in these places (except Westdale) is also mediocre, at best.

For us, I think it was in part the effort we put in to getting to know the city that made it such an enjoyable experience. Other cities that on the face of it require less effort (Stratford and Victoria come to mind) might be decent for a walk, but are extremely overpriced and lacking in the cultural opportunities on offer here. We tired of those places very quickly.

Of course, as much as I like it here, I still hope the core has a brighter horizon. I hated not being able to buy clothes downtown and having to catch an uncomfortably full bus to Limeridge (ah, nothing like strip malls, parking lots, and 6-lane roads to warm the heart), and I sincerely hope that most of the places lining the north side of Gore give way to more reputable businesses. For a somewhat unsettling time, just watch the types of people going into and coming out of that adult film theatre. Not fun.

I don't know if I necessarily want the people in the Gore to go away (unless that pimp who cornered my girlfriend is among them). I rather wish that the people who currently have a serious complex about going downtown (there's lots of them here in Westdale - I'm sure there's lots more elsewhere) would actually give eating out, drinking coffee, and watching films and live music in the core a serious chance, and - hell, why not - give up their cars for a day and actually walk along James N. from downtown to the waterfront. I don't want the downtown to turn into a sanitized, white bread shopping mall, but those stores on the north side of King aren't going to go anywhere unless there's a greater mix of people downtown.

perfectly stated. Great post.

[highwater]

Originally Posted by raisethehammer

perfectly stated. Great post.

Ditto. Did you say you were heading back out West, Geoff? Too bad. Hamilton needs more clear-eyed, open-minded people such as yourself.

[geoff's two cents]

Well damn, highwater, thanks for the compliment, and I return it. I've always appreciated your comments on this site and raisethehammer, even when they don't directly match my own. Between that site and this, there's a lot of intelligent discussion (together, of course, with the less intelligent bits).

Yes, I don't feel as though I've had enough of the city yet, but job prospects here are not fantastic and, being a recent graduate, I have some debts to pay (and am old enough to feel ashamed when I have to borrow money). Hamilton has grown on us in a way that we didn't really expect it to at first. Even that pea soup smell that my body tells me is bad for me has started to feel somewhat comforting - gemuetlich would be a more adequate word for it. I might not be as much of a regular as I was before, but I'll still visit this site from time to time, and occasionally post as well.

If the city diversifies sufficiently that I will actually have job prospects here, I would definitely consider returning, perhaps even if - and I should say this cautiously - I had opportunities in Toronto as well.

[rousseau]

Originally Posted by raisethehammer

I take it many of you have never travelled outside of Western nations. If you don't like the mix of people in Gore Park I don't think you'd enjoy hanging out by the gulf of mexico flea market in Veracruz or being in shanty towns in the Dominican or the heart of the inner city in Bogota. Cuba was another eye opener.
I loved all these places and would go back in a heartbeat. It's good for young people to grow up with a better perspective of the world and not their fake, Hollywood version on the tv everynight.

Just jumping in here with a dose of reality: There is nothing virtuous or comparatively "genuine" about poverty. Indeed, the notion that you love Cuba or the Dominican because you perceive those places to be more genuine (again, whatever that means) due to the higher proportion of people living in poverty than Canada is, irony of ironies, considering who is pushing this, frivolous bourgeois nonsense. It's offensive, even.

Likewise, there is absolutely nothing more virtuous or genuine about Hamilton as compared to Oakville or Burlington. People on this board seem to forget that we're talking about aesthetic, cultural and social preferences here; genuine, authentic or virtuous don't enter into it. As someone who has lived in and travelled to a fair number of countries around the globe, I can tell you with what I think is a goodly degree of anecdotal authority that people in the vecindades in Mexico City, say, are no more virtuous or authentic or worthy of admiration than people in Oakville. They're certainly noisier and poorer, and living comparatively more chaotic lives, but if you find that somehow charming then you're a morally confused twit.

Hamilton's downtown has too high a proportion of people who are clearly down and out than is healthy. This is a fact, and it is a detriment to the overall growth of the city. That things have improved somewhat over the years is a good sign, to be sure. Still, when we lived there my wife was afraid to walk downtown alone in broad daylight, because as an attractive woman she was the object of far too much troglodytically threatening male attention in addition to the gauntlet of beggars and drooling mouth-breathers she had to walk through. She had some scary encounters when I wasn't with her. She didn't feel safe in Hamilton. We moved.

In Toronto you can generally slip back into the crowd when some lowlife decides he likes you, but in Hamilton it's not that easy. It should be easier. Quite frankly, Mr. RTF, the idea that your kids are more grounded in "reality" because they see more pregnant 15-year-olds smoking Craven A's in Gore Park than do the suburbanites in Ancaster, and the idea that this will somehow better equip your kids to deal with the "real world," is fatuous nonsense. For every native of Barton Street who develops a social conscience for what he has seen, I'll give you 30 who loathe the drug dealer next door and the moron who can't hold down a job across the street and the petty vandalism and the shoddy lives all around them, and would give anything to win the lottery and get the hell out of there. Nay, 50. A hundred.

Being around poverty doesn't make you more sensitive. Indeed, it seems more likely that it will actually desensitize you. Do you actually know what Mexicans think about other Mexicans who belong to different social classes? Do you really think the mercados are one big happy love affair? Are you really so ignorant, or naive?

[the dude]

Originally Posted by rousseau

Hamilton's downtown has too high a proportion of people who are clearly down and out than is healthy. This is a fact, and it is a detriment to the overall growth of the city. That things have improved somewhat over the years is a good sign, to be sure. Still, when we lived there my wife was afraid to walk downtown alone in broad daylight, because as an attractive woman she was the object of far too much troglodytically threatening male attention in addition to the gauntlet of beggars and drooling mouth-breathers she had to walk through. She had some scary encounters when I wasn't with her. She didn't feel safe in Hamilton. We moved.

i'm sorry, are you talking about hamilton or sixth century london? please, spare us the drama and let's do our best to keep this discussion on planet earth.

[rousseau]

Originally Posted by the dude

i'm sorry, are you talking about hamilton or sixth century london? please, spare us the drama and let's do our best to keep this discussion on planet earth.

Oh, sorry about that, I don't know what I was thinking suggesting that it can be trying and often threatening for women on their own in the downtown area of Hamilton. Thanks for setting me to rights. I'll be sure to inform my wife straightaway that it was all in her head.

Should I go ahead and set the other women in Hamilton I know straight, too? Or should I just nod condescendingly should they ever complain about taunts, aggressive come ons and physical intimidation?

Sarcasm over. Now, don't take this the wrong way, and it undoubtedly looks like I'm scoring a cheap point, but is there a chance you don't know very many women who are generally regarded as attractive and who also frequent downtown? Just a thought. I'm guessing you're a guy. I myself am, and lean toward the sort of physical stature that doesn't tend to invite casual conflict from strangers, so I often forget, to borrow a song title from Joe Jackson, that it's different for girls. I thought part of the reason for this particular thread was that it shouldn't have to be so much that way downtown.

RTF, on this particular point you are beneath contempt.

[geoff's two cents]

Originally Posted by rousseau

Sarcasm over. Now, don't take this the wrong way, and it undoubtedly looks like I'm scoring a cheap point, but is there a chance you don't know very many women who are generally regarded as attractive and who also frequent downtown? Just a thought.

rousseau, the rest of your post makes a generally valid (if, to some, overstated) point, and one, as my post above indicates, that I can partially relate to. The quality of your writing leads me to believe that you're otherwise above this type of adolescent nonsense. Can I assume so?

[rousseau]

Yeah, it was a cheap point, though I would argue that "the dude's" remarks were more egregious.

The bourgeois notion that poverty is charming and the ignorant belittling of danger to women are two things that tend to raise my ire. They brought me out of the woodwork tonight, for better or worse. Read my contributions with a salty grain, I guess.

Oh, an aside: the cultural offerings in Stratford are narrow but substantial, but this isn't the place for twenty-somethings who need big city life, there's no doubt about that. The real estate isn't more expensive here than Hamilton, though. It's generally comparable.

[adam]

Since I've been on this board, I've noticed several people who have moved away from Hamilton for whatever reason feel the urge to check up on this area devoted to the city they moved away from. If it was such a horrible place, why do they feel the need to constantly visit the message board and put the city down? What is it that gravitates them to it? Are they simply miserable that they couldn't fit Hamilton into their lives and feel the need to rationalize their move every time they are in doubt?

@rousseau, man.. your wife must be some amazing beauty with all the attention she received in Hamilton. Do you let her out into public often or keep her in the basement away from prying eyes? Honestly, your story is ridiculous.

[go_leafs_go02]

I'm going to guess is that they want to check in with developments. Personally, I couldn't care less about places I've never visited. Like when I check out pictures on SSP. I don't check out pictures of places I've never been to. It's only when I've been to a place, where I know the local geography, that I take interest.

So yeah, you live here, it always has a place in you..positive or not. I've been here a year, I don't ever plan on living here after I'm done school, but I'm sure I'll check in every once in a while to see if things are any different.

wow..one post 2 days ago...commenting on the sketchiness of people in Gore park..lead to this.

quite an entertaining read.

[the dude]

^agreed.

@rousseau - always a pleasure to read your posts. so, when's your first work of fiction coming out? i'd love an advance copy.

you know, egregious used to have a positive connotation. i think i'll assume that's how you meant it.

[rousseau]

Is having an attachment to a place even though you've left it really such a difficult concept to grasp?

Originally Posted by adam

@rousseau, man.. your wife must be some amazing beauty with all the attention she received in Hamilton. Do you let her out into public often or keep her in the basement away from prying eyes? Honestly, your story is ridiculous.

She's attractive, yes. She didn't appreciate the harrassment when she was on her own. It got to the point where she avoided downtown completely.

Very charming, the condescending attitude shown toward women on this thread. I'm wondering, would you actually tell a woman to her face that this kind of story was "ridiculous"?

[adam]

My girlfriend and myself happen to be of above average looks and we frequently walk around downtown Hamilton. But we have pleasant experiences all the time. What was your wife wearing at the time?

[adam]

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20081018.wbchomeless18/BNStory/National/home

Interesting article on homeless in Victoria, BC. The problem isn't isolated to Hamilton. Of course if you live out in the boonies you won't be confronted by those living in poverty simply because its out in the middle of nowhere.

[BCTed]

I'm really having difficulty seeing this from the perspective of raisethehammer and the two or three people that are in agreement with him on this topic. Do they see the Gore Park population composition as something healthy? Is it a great place to hang out? To bring your children? To go out on a date? To hold business meetings? Is it perfect?

Is there in fact no actual sketch out there and are most of us just poorly-travelled rubes who are all seeing things the wrong way?

This whole topic reminds me of all of the times that people like RTH have tried to be convincing about the vast amount of high-paying white-collar work in downtown Hamilton without having a clue what they are talking about. HAMRetrofit claimed that he could (off the top of his head) name 100+ businesses in downtown Hamilton that would be suitable employers of MBA graduates. RTH stuck to his guns about seeing loads of suits and ties downtown and he kept citing some vague statistic from StatsCan that he had completely misunderstood.

[FairHamilton]

Originally Posted by adam

@rousseau, man.. your wife must be some amazing beauty with all the attention she received in Hamilton. Do you let her out into public often or keep her in the basement away from prying eyes? Honestly, your story is ridiculous.

That's an extremely ignorant comment. So ignorant I'm almost ashamed on your behalf.

[FairHamilton]

Originally Posted by adam

What was your wife wearing at the time?

I thought your previous post was ignorant until I read this one. It takes the cake.

Attitudes/comments like that frighten me. Please go back to 1975.

[raisethehammer]

I'd like to say rousseau's true colours come out - offended by people who aren't insanely rich?? give me a break. how arrogant.
north americans are the richest people to ever walk the face of the earth. We're spoiled little brats who want to brush aside the working class on down out of view in order to create this false sense of commanding wealth and superiority in society.
The places I referred to in my travels are all normal middle class (on a world level) areas - Bogota and Veracruz were fabulous cities. I could easily move there in a heartbeat. Heck, we even had some white suburban shopping types that attended these trips with us and they enjoyed those cities immensely.
Rousseau simply dismisses anywhere not here as being dirt poor.
Like some of you, he needs to get out of pretentious, stuck-up Stratford and see the real world.