Rapid Transit

[thistleclub]

Originally Posted by raisethehammer

people will use 'train' or 'light rail' most likely.
unless we name it...in Portland it was called 'The Max'.
Everyone would just say "let's take the Max downtown" etc....

I find that people generally go with the fewest syllables... "car" over "auto," for example, or "bus" over "HSR" (except in semi-formal talk, when directing newcomers, or cases where you want to make a branding distinction, "bus" is intra-urban and "GO" is inter-urban... Burlington Transit and Greyhound/Canada Coach get the short end of the stick but whatever). Portland's handle is smart in that regard.

[BrianE]

Originally Posted by omro

A little diversion.

What do canadians call their LRTs?

We British call them trams.

Would the LRT trains in Hamilton be trams, trolleys, streetcars, or something else? What's the correct term?

I love cultural 'memes' like this. It's almost impossible to predict what naming convention will eventualy win out in the end. My personal favorite is the South Lake Union Transit in Seattle. I'm sure there's no end to the 'riding the SLUT' jokes.

Hamilton has some great naming memes going on with "The Linc" "The Gore" "Limeridge" "Copps" "RBG". It seems like the Red Hill Parkway is simply becoming "The Red Hill", RHVP is not catching on.

In the end I think the LRT system will be commonly refered to as "The B-Line" and "The A-Line" and all other public transit will just be "The Bus"

[markbarbera]

Originally Posted by raisethehammer

I'm talking about when the removed all the overhead wires.
Ridership plummeted by almost 10 million per year.
Recent years it's begun to go back up, but nowhere near it's highest levels.

Can you point me to these figures? Te only downward blip I have seen is in 1998/99. I don't recall a drop in 1991, the year the HSR retired electric trolley buses.

[SteelTown]

Funding The Big Question Around Light Rail
Ken Mann
10/6/2008

Words of caution in regards to the possibility of a light rail transit system in Hamilton.

City politicians stress that while they are supportive of the concept, the 1.1 billion dollar cost of building it must be paid for by the province.

Councillor Chad Collins among those stressing that it's a "non-starter" if the province doesn't foot the bill. Ancaster's Lloyd Ferguson describes it as the potential "show-stopper".

Beyond that he remains strongly behind the project, especially after studying light rail transit systems in Calgary, Charlotte and Portland.

Ferguson stresses that riders would love it, adding that the economic uptake would help our downtown prosper.

The plan calls for light rail transit along an east-west line between McMaster University and Eastgale Square, and north-south between the west harbour and the airport.

Metrolinx chair Rob MacIsaac will be in town on Tuesday afternoon to answer questions about the proposal. He'll be speaking to a committee of the local chamber of commerce.

[LikeHamilton]

LRTs 'boost economies'

Buses have 'a stigma,' says Eisenberger

Eric McGuinness
The Hamilton Spectator

(Oct 7, 2008)
Mayor Fred Eisenberger expects light rail transit to boost Hamilton's economy as well as its public transit ridership.

"There's a significant economic uptake you don't get with bus rapid transit," he told council's public works committee yesterday.

The mayor and councillors who visited Calgary, Charlotte, N.C., and Portland, Ore., all report light rail boosted development in those cities, especially downtown.

Eisenberger said he hasn't heard one Hamiltonian say rapid transit is a bad idea -- either bus rapid transit or light rail transit -- but most favour light rail because it's more likely to be used "no matter what your income or station in life."

"Light rail appeals to everyone. There's a stigma attached to buses in every community that does not attach to light rail."

The mayor said he's counting on Metrolinx, the provincial transportation planning agency, to include at least one Hamilton light rail transit line in its first five-year budget due in November.

If that happens, "we will have achieved a huge success in getting our share of funding."

Jill Stephen, manager of strategic planning, reminded councillors that Metrolinx's recently released 25-year draft plan identifies two Hamilton rapid transit routes in the first 15 years -- a crosstown B line from Eastgate Square to University Plaza and a north-south A line from the waterfront to the airport with a link to Lime Ridge Mall.

Scott Stewart, general manager of public works, said the A and B lines together would cost an estimated $1.1 billion, and unless that comes from the province, the project is a non-starter.

City staff suggest priority go to the B line because it would attract more passengers right away, cost less to build and be more likely to spur redevelopment.

Stephen said public opinion favours light rail running two ways on the same street, rather than east on Main and west on King as buses do now. Planners also now think it's possible to dedicate a lane to transit east of the Delta, an idea ruled out earlier.

"We want to make sure, when we make decisions on where things go, we understand where all users will fit on the right-of-way."

Ancaster Councillor Lloyd Ferguson noted that the Ontario government has committed $11.5 billion to get started on the $50-to-$55-billion, 25-year plan and has asked the federal government to contribute $6 billion more.

With a week to go in the federal election, he suggested Hamilton voters ask candidates where they stand on providing the money.

[email protected]

905-526-4650

[omro]

Originally Posted by LikeHamilton

Stephen said public opinion favours light rail running two ways on the same street, rather than east on Main and west on King as buses do now. Planners also now think it's possible to dedicate a lane to transit east of the Delta, an idea ruled out earlier.

"We want to make sure, when we make decisions on where things go, we understand where all users will fit on the right-of-way."

Cool

[raisethehammer]

if by chance they do run the LRT one-way on King and Main they should do it in the opposite curb lanes than the buses currently use.

2-way on Main makes sense, although the stretch of King from Wentworth to the Delta would virtually see no spinoff from LRT in that it's quite a walk from King to Main at that point.
That's the ONLY reason I might like to see LRT on both streets - it would give both streets a boost.

[SteelTown]

^ That's the main reason why I support LRT on both King and Main, help revitalize both streets at the same time with the help of Metrolinx's funding.

If we do LRT only on Main, than it's likely the city will have to pay for streetscaping King by itself and that will probably take 10 years to complete with phases. Look how long it's taking to just to King from Queen to James, been approved since 2001 I believe.

[raisethehammer]

I walked from the B-Line stop at Main/Longwood into Westdale today (King&Marion).
It took 4.5 minutes. Not bad at all. Having LRT that close to the centre of Westdale will be good for them.
Anyone have any nifty name ideas for an LRT system??
Portlands is called the Max, but that actually stands for Metropolitan Area Express....of course, not a single soul ever calls it that. haha. It's always 'MAX'.

[raisethehammer]

does anyone know what the cost is for JUST the B-Line LRT??

[SteelTown]

Think around $400 million. You can probably find the figure around the beginning of this thread.

[SteelTown]

"The capital costs of providing LRT are estimated at of $15 million/km for one-way streets and $25 million/km for two-way streets, plus $4 million for each LRT vehicle required."

Find how many km for B-Line and times it $15,000,000 for one way or $25,000,000 for two way.

[omro]

Originally Posted by SteelTown

^ That's the main reason why I support LRT on both King and Main, help revitalize both streets at the same time with the help of Metrolinx's funding.

If we do LRT only on Main, than it's likely the city will have to pay for streetscaping King by itself and that will probably take 10 years to complete with phases. Look how long it's taking to just to King from Queen to James, been approved since 2001 I believe.

I don't agree, because King is the primary shopping strip of the downtown.

I'm going to be hypothetical here, so suspend your disbelief and humour me.

Assume LRT never happens, but the all day link to Toronto does.

Assume that more people from Toronto move into the downtown with their higher incomes and spending habits, to take advantage of the cheaper property prices and the easy commute to their jobs.

Assume that thanks to some local government initiatives and the improved connection to Toronto, companies realise the overlooked potential of cheap downtown offices and rents causing a bunch of good companies move into Hamilton's downtown area to take advantage of these incentives. Assume that these companies employ a reasonable amount of people who either commute in from the surrounding area or increasingly buy or rent locally.

Condos will be built downtown and properties renovated to meet the demand for both of the above.

Assume that people would rather walk to a shop near their downtown condo or home, than get into their car and waste fuel money to drive out of the city. Assume that the new people working downtown want to get lunches and snacks and do a little shopping on their lunch break and can't really go far.

Where are most of these people going to head for this shopping? The existing shopping area on King.

This demand and money to spend will draw new shops, eateries and other businesses in.

So we have two things happening as a result of all this, more people living in and more businesses in the downtown core. How does the city directly benefit from this? Taxes! More people and more businesses mean more property and business taxation revenue which can be collected and spent by the local government. This will encourage the local government to sponsor initiatives to clean up the area, to encourage and sustain this surge of new business and residents, which in turn will pay for itself over time in tax dollars.

OK, where does LRT fit into all of this? LRT on Main and the link to Toronto will help encourage a lot of the above, which will improve King directly without having to resort to a splitting the LRT onto Main and King.

Keep the LRT simple and the rest will take care of itself as a result of supply and demand.

[raisethehammer]

ok, so onto some nitty gritty route planning for B-Line LRT.

I recall when living in Portland that the MAX trains stopped frequently downtown.
So, I looked up online and with the help of Google Maps and Tri-Met website I figured out that there are 7 LRT stops within 1 mile in downtown PDX, from NW 1st/Davis to SW10th/Galleria stop.

I truly believe that stops downtown should be more frequent like this, than east or west of the core. My memory was correct regarding Portland's system.

7 stops in 1 mile brings the riders to so many destinations and uses in an urban core.

So, without futher ado, my suggested routing of the B-Line LRT, west to east:

University Plaza
West Village Condos
Binkley (Fortinos, St Mary's highschool)
McMaster
Longwood
Dundurn
Locke
Hess Village
Bay St (City Hall/Education Square/Copps Coliseum)
McNab Terminal
Hughson (Gore, GO Station)
Jarvis/Spring (International Village)
Emerald
Wentworth
Sherman
Gage
Delta
Ottawa
Kenilworth
Queenston Traffic Circle
Parkdale
Nash
Eastgate

The spacing east and west of downtown is appropriate for LRT. Downtown area I've added a few extra stops since it's the highest density part of the city and deserves stops at Locke, International Village and Emerald.

Folks at the city have been reluctant to add more stops to the current B-Line and for good reason. It travels in mixed traffic, stops are longer than LRT stops will be (I once sat at Main and Queen for 5 minutes. Some lady took a couple minutes chatting with the driver about "where this bus stops" etc.... and then the light changed red and then just as it was turning green someone else came running up and knocked on the door to get on.
None of that crap with LRT.
Stops on LRT systems I've used are usually 10-20 seconds. Then the train pulls away and all lights are controlled by the train so that it travels continuously to it's next stop. We NEED to add in these extra few stops with LRT and I guarantee that the total travel time from University Plaza to Eastgate will be several minutes less than the current B-Line.

I've got 6 stops in the 2.5km stretch from Dundurn to Wellington. Appropriate for the heart of the city IMO.

Any thoughts?

[omro]

Originally Posted by SteelTown

"The capital costs of providing LRT are estimated at of $15 million/km for one-way streets and $25 million/km for two-way streets, plus $4 million for each LRT vehicle required."

Find how many km for B-Line and times it $15,000,000 for one way or $25,000,000 for two way.

So splitting the LRT onto Main and King will cost an additional $5m per kilometer to implement and that's just to build it, nothing about maintaining it.

This is all approximate. Using google map's distance tool, I calculated that along Main street from the Delta area to Paradise Road (where I'm assuming that the two lines will meet up again) is a distance of a little under 6.5km.

6.5 x $5 = $30.25m more to build a split LRT than to keep it all on the same road.

Now if you turn that saving into the $4m LRT vehicles, thats: $30.25 / 4 = 7.5625. Let's call that 7 for simplicity.

OK, the real cost of splitting the LRT onto King and Main is 7 LRT vehicles and the increase in service that you'd get from having more vehicles on the track and a reduced distance between them. That could easily change the service from 1 every 15mins to 1 every 10mins, for example.

[omro]

I totally agree about the number of stops, in many cases the decision between taking transit and driving is the fact that the transit stop is just too far to walk vs being able to park just outside.

I'm sorry to say this, but people are inherently lazy.

[adam]

If people are that lazy, then what will motivate them to take LRT over their car? Using this logic, maybe they should forget about LRT all together

[highwater]

Originally Posted by raisethehammer

Anyone have any nifty name ideas for an LRT system??

The Spammer. (Speed + hammer.)

[raisethehammer]

sorry, I've edited my above post to add one more stop - Bay St (Education Square/Copps Coliseum).
this stretch from Queen to Wellington is our 'downtown' area similar to Portlands. More stops are needed and would be used by the public.

It's exciting to think of how quickly this thing will get across town in it's own lanes. WAY better than the B-Line bus.

[omro]

Originally Posted by adam

If people are that lazy, then what will motivate them to take LRT over their car? Using this logic, maybe they should forget about LRT all together

Come on, think about it, I'm obviously not saying that

BTW, I'm using the word transit instead of bus/tram, as this can be applied to both.

If people have a long wait for transit, after a long walk to a transit stop, that's going to put people off using it.

When Red Ken got into office as Mayor of London, one of the first things he demanded during the review of TfL was that buses stopped more at more places along their routes, ran more frequently and more regularly. Less of the "you wait around for bloody ages and two come along at once" syndrome that had plagued London buses. What happened... more people took the bus.

If you've a frequently running and frequently spaced transit system, then people will be more inclined to use it.