Winnipeg | Transit | Rapid Transit

[1ajs]

who knows tower crane thats just what the city said at the press confrince anouncing this plan... perhaps they are laying the stations out so they can be retrofited with ease to lrt and seting up the space needed to build them longer in the future? as for the track bit i would asume they are building a base to put tracks on but will be puting a road over top of so basicaly all one would need to do is lay the track over top and bam?

[DAVEinEDMONTON]

Originally Posted by newflyer

The BRT platforms they plan on building will be built to the specs of LRT requirements. The Park and Ride areas will also be the same. Same as any pedestrian linkage to a transit platform. The any constructed overpass or underpass will also be utilized for BRT and LRT.

The transit corridor will be utilized by either form of rapid transit .. The end investment to convert to LRT will be laying the track lines, buying LRT cars .. and building LRT maintenance facilities.

Yes, Newflyer...please provide your proof that the BRT platforms will be built to LRT specifications...and that all they would need is to lay track lines...or are you just making up unsupportable statements as fact...

It makes sense that you only have to acquire the land for the transit corridor and park n ride space once and that over or under passes could be used by both BRT and LRT. However, I doubt that anything else related to LRT would be installed until such time as the decision to convert to LRT is made.

[MalcolmTucker]

Probably the only logical difference that would make sense to have in 'convertible to lrt' is in the road base. It would be designed to support the higher weight. Other than that, you may aswell just designed to an easy standard for curves and grades. For LRT platform height, almost no one builds a high floor lrt anymore, unless it is an extension of an old system. It saves enoguh money to go low floor in the long run that calgarys 5th spoke will be low floor, at the price of loss of interoperability and duplicating alot of stuff. A low floor crt curb should be low enogh for bus curbs, especially since the rail bed would end up lower than the road bed.

There is no point of roughing in space for electrical systems really, if you were you can aswell do it all in the first place. You would have to leave land aside for substations and such.

One way to get around having to re do the track bed during construction is to build a biking trail next to the line and put all the servicing cables down along it.

The 'built to LRT standards' is a misnomer. If you want LRT, build it now.

[thegreattait]

From my understanding the only thing that was being built to LRT standards was the curve radiuses (radii)Sp? and the grade (slope). Big deal that's not a lot of planning and forethought.

Well maybe with this cities elected officials and city planning staff it is.

[flatlander]

I just got back from a quick trip to New York City. The subway is very efficient but sure is grubby. There were a few new trains on the line (air conditioned!) It was very safe and people were pleasant, but it was packed.

At the Minneapolis airport I enjoyed myself for a few minutes on the trolley. I'd love to see something like that zipping up and down Portage, Main and Broadway. I looked for the name of the manufacturer but couldn't find anything. Anyone have any ideas?

[1ajs]

probly bomideer or something... onlything is in the winter those dam things sure get cold... i road it a couple times in febuary when i had to do some runingaround for my bagage and such coming back from nz cause it came ahead of me....

[spiritedenergy]

i took a GPS equipped bus for the first time today... I think the signal panel is in the wrong position, it is at the top but when the bus is packed I imagine people from the back would never be able to see anything. Also the voice calling the stops is not loud enough and again in a crowded bus it would not be heard.

Still nice to see a touch of urbanism in this wildly suburban place.

[Only The Lonely..]

Originally Posted by flatlander

I just got back from a quick trip to New York City. The subway is very efficient but sure is grubby. There were a few new trains on the line (air conditioned!) It was very safe and people were pleasant, but it was packed.

At the Minneapolis airport I enjoyed myself for a few minutes on the trolley. I'd love to see something like that zipping up and down Portage, Main and Broadway. I looked for the name of the manufacturer but couldn't find anything. Anyone have any ideas?

Yes, I too am quite fond of that little tram. I spent a whole day just riding that thing in circles as I waited for 6 hours to make my connecting trip to Chicago (Thank you Northworst).

Personally, I would rather have something like that running in a loop in our downtown (a la the Detroit People Mover) than our wretched Skywalk system.

A small automated tram running between the Concert Hall, Portage Place, Convention Centre and the Forks would provide the convenience of quick sheltered access to various points of interest downtown while bringing pedestrian traffic back down to street level.

It certainly seems ideal for our cold wintery climate.

MSP Airport Tram:


Detroit People Mover:

[1ajs]

in the dead of winter u need a jacket riding on those things....

[Kinguni]

Originally Posted by spiritedenergy

i took a GPS equipped bus for the first time today... I think the signal panel is in the wrong position, it is at the top but when the bus is packed I imagine people from the back would never be able to see anything. Also the voice calling the stops is not loud enough and again in a crowded bus it would not be heard.

Still nice to see a touch of urbanism in this wildly suburban place.

The voice volume is adjustable, perhaps let the driver know. I've found that with the antiquated PA systems used in the buses the voice is sometime distorted. Hard to tell at the front of the bus though.

[DAVEinEDMONTON]

Originally Posted by Only The Lonely..

Personally, I would rather have something like that running in a loop in our downtown (a la the Detroit People Mover) than our wretched Skywalk system.

A small automated tram running between the Concert Hall, Portage Place, Convention Centre and the Forks would provide the convenience of quick sheltered access to various points of interest downtown while bringing pedestrian traffic back down to street level.

It certainly seems ideal for our cold wintery climate.

An elevated system like you are suggesting would be nice except I am not fond of all the concrete towers that would be needed to elevate the system. If you keep it to the secondary streets then maybe but I think it would look ugly in the Exchange district and take away from the architecture.

(Please note this post has been written without the pre-approval of Newflyer...read at your own risk... )

[Only The Lonely..]

Originally Posted by DAVEinEDMONTON

(Please note this post has been written without the pre-approval of Newflyer...read at your own risk... )

Duely noted..

[newflyer]

Originally Posted by DAVEinEDMONTON

Yes, Newflyer...please provide your proof that the BRT platforms will be built to LRT specifications...and that all they would need is to lay track lines...or are you just making up unsupportable statements as fact...

It makes sense that you only have to acquire the land for the transit corridor and park n ride space once and that over or under passes could be used by both BRT and LRT. However, I doubt that anything else related to LRT would be installed until such time as the decision to convert to LRT is made.

First of all I didn't say all they would need to do is just lay track ... but since you have proven yourself to be of a very low reading level I will just leave it at that. I also stated they would have to buy rail cars and build LRT maintenance facilities.

A far as "proof" goes ... (are you in elementary school??.... ) ... I am going on the TV converage in which the mayor stated that the new rapid transit lines will be complient to LRT standards as much as possible. I follow Winnipeg news fairly closely over the internet.. and have taken my point of view partialy from them. Of course previous transit reports have also suggested in building BRT to LRT standards.. including platform formats. In my mind that would suggest the BRT platforms will be long enough to handle LRT in the future, of course the LRT lines would be layed at a lower grade than would be needed for BRT, but thats within my stated point, of having to lay the rail lines , including the proper grade levels.


Of course that is assuming that there are no new rapid transit announcements in the future which would significantly change the whole proposal in a very real way.

(of course my comments only reflect Winnipeg's transit system .. and not Edmonton's ....my appologies go out to Edmonton Dave)

[thegreattait]

[QUOTE=DAVEinEDMONTON;3830484]An elevated system like you are suggesting would be nice except I am not fond of all the concrete towers that would be needed to elevate the system. If you keep it to the secondary streets then maybe but I think it would look ugly in the Exchange district and take away from the architecture.


As for the architecture side of this on an elevated system, most monorails are thin enough and their support structures can be decorated to match surrounding environments. An example would be concrete structure covered in red brick with limestone accents or grow Ivy up trellis to add vegetation. If you really had money you could wrap the concrete with some ornate terracotta designs that are featured on some of Winnipeg's most beautiful builds. That's assuming money is no object...lol

That's not the point an elevated monorail is even more expensive then a low budget LRT especially if we are talking about decorating it. Since a low budget LRT seems already to much of a stretch for the political will in this city I think a high class top of the line monorail system is kind of out of the question.

Although I will give monorail its dues I think modern systems have many advantages. One of them being construction time. Monorails are probably the fastest and least destructive form of mass transit, since much of the construction is done off site and then is assembled on site. Also because of this set up you can put Monorail in places that LRT could only dream of, or that LRT would have to suffer through combined ROW which reduces efficiency.

I could just imagine it Lafarge in Winnipeg constructing the components of a Winnipeg Monorail, maybe even using the new fabric molding technology to create some unique pillar designs, now that would be pretty sweet.


sorry I'm just day dreaming over hear .... sigh

[Only The Lonely..]

After watching a Youtube clip on the founding of Epcot center, and reading through some old Steve Juba stuff, i've certainly come to appreciate the beauty of a monorail system.

That said, my proposed system would basically be a low grade knock off of the elevated tram they use in the Minneapolis airport.

It would have maybe 4 stops, and probably have a round trip distance of 2 kms and use two cars.

I figure it would come once every 7-10 mins and be a useful alternative for transporting people around downtown in a climate controlled environment.

In the process, it would allow us to junk the skywalk system and get those people back on the sidewalks below for shorter distances.

Of course it would be free to ride, and would probably come to replace the downtown flyer route.

This technology is already widely deployed in most major airports, why not in cities as functional transportation?

If various hub airports can afford it, how expensive could such a system really be?

[DAVEinEDMONTON]

Originally Posted by Tower Crane

So are you saying the platforms will be raised to the same elevation you enter an LRT train car at, which is exactly level to the LRT train car floor which is higher than a bus floor?
Are you saying that the platforms will be built as long as a few LRT train cars, typically most platforms are a few cars long?
My firm is involved in working on the Edmonton LRT extension, there is significant electrical and system infrastructure underground and above grade that the LRT trains and platform systems utilize, are you saying that the City of Winnipeg is placing all those systems under the BRT roadway and then only tracks will be required.
I really don't believe for a minute that the construction of BRT Platforms and infrastructure is being built to LRT standards with only the track missing as far as the road/lines go.

Interesting points Tower Crane.

[Only The Lonely..]

Again, take a look at the inside of the MSP airport tram. It's pretty basic and doesn't even have seats.



Surely, this technology is attainable for even frugal Winnipeg.

[thegreattait]

Originally Posted by Only The Lonely..

After watching a Youtube clip on the founding of Epcot center, and reading through some old Steve Juba stuff, i've certainly come to appreciate the beauty of a monorail system.

That said, my proposed system would basically be a low grade knock off of the elevated tram they use in the Minneapolis airport.

It would have maybe 4 stops, and probably have a round trip distance of 2 kms and use two cars.

I figure it would come once every 7-10 mins and be a useful alternative for transporting people around downtown in a climate controlled environment.

In the process, it would allow us to junk the skywalk system and get those people back on the sidewalks below for shorter distances.

Of course it would be free to ride, and would probably come to replace the downtown flyer route.

This technology is already widely deployed in most major airports, why not in cities as functional transportation?

If various hub airports can afford it, how expensive could such a system really be?

Well in that case then yes I think its a great idea everything expect for the part about getting rid of the walkway system. I'm not sure if you realize this but there are many little business in there, such as coffee and gift shops etc etc. Also when its minus 40 i'm not waiting 10 min to catch a monorail, I'd like to exercise and walk in a heated environment. I think both could operate simultaneously. just as the downtown spirit 1-2-3 buses do now, except a monorail would have a huge positive image boost compared to some buses. There was actually a WFP contest back in the day and the winning idea was a imitation streetcar service on similar lines to New Orleans or San Fransisco, as a tribute to the historic past of Winnipeg in its Chicago style boom times era.

This was scrapped due to cost and the city put together the downtown spirit buses. Which are free by the way in case anyone didn't know.

Back on topic
I'd rather see some solid investments into an actual rapid transit system that served the downtown properly, not some bovine fecal matter BRT cop-out.
A monorail would be a nice idea but I think we should focus on getting LRT to spur downtown development, then worry about moving people around downtown once we have them there.

As for how LRT would spur downtown development. My logic is as follows, with an efficient LRT system, people would be willing to leave their cars and take the system to the downtown for their jobs. This decreases the needs for vast parking lots in the downtown area, which would allow for some new buildings if the need arrises. As LRT brings in greater TOD and the LRT is focused on the downtown, businesses would be willing to focus their building efforts along the line and at its end point (hopefully middle point, at some point).

Also as people are taking the LRT to work instead of their cars they are more conditioned to walking around the downtown, this new vibrancy of seeing people walk around downtown, helps the businesses and shops which rely on human traffic, to grow and expand and see the addition of more new business.

This process begins a catalyst chain reaction that sees a few key new buildings going up, by this point LRT gets expanded to other parts of the city and the rejuvenation finally has traction to have sustained growth. Now with more jobs downtown and an efficient LRT network more people move downtown because it becomes accessible and there are more services as there are more business that grew with the increase in human traffic.

Ohh yes then some nice guy says hey we need a downtown monorail to move all these people living here around and it gets built and connects wonderfully to transfer points on the LRT, is designed with aesthetic to match the exchange, and comes in ahead of schedule and under budget.

.... sorry folks dreaming again... awww but what a nice dream

[thegreattait]

Originally Posted by Only The Lonely..

Again, take a look at the inside of the MSP airport tram. It's pretty basic and doesn't even have seats.



Surely, this technology is attainable for even frugal Winnipeg.

So apparently this DAVEinEDMONTON guy doesn't read but then i guess that's ok if this Only The Lonely can't see two seats in a picture he posted twice.

Look at the back of the car on either side. ....... two seats, and I bet if you turned the camera around you'd see two more seats at the opposite end, behind you.

But I know what you mean it has limited seating.

lol its all in good fun... I think you're right this is something Winnipeg could do at some point, but as in my previous post I think there are some other things that need to happen first

[DAVEinEDMONTON]

Originally Posted by thegreattait

So apparently this DAVEinEDMONTON guy doesn't read but then i guess that's ok if this Only The Lonely can't see two seats in a picture he posted twice.

Look at the back of the car on either side. ....... two seats, and I bet if you turned the camera around you'd see two more seats at the opposite end, behind you.

But I know what you mean it has limited seating.

lol its all in good fun... I think you're right this is something Winnipeg could do at some point, but as in my previous post I think there are some other things that need to happen first

but at least I can spell gud...

Monorails are not very rapid and seem very limited for what you get. I can only think of three that exist in downtown or near downtown cores. Las Vegas which winds through the casinos on the strip...more of a touristy thing than really a serious means of transit but fun nonetheless. Seattle which takes tourists to the Space Needle which I believe is a leftover from their expo and Miami downtown. I cannot remember how extensive Miami's system was but I do remember being happy being elevated on certain parts of their system and not being on the ground because it travels through some real sketchy parts of town.

When I think of a monorail I am always reminded of the Simpsons episode where Springfield gets suckered into a new system with no brakes and Homer saves the day by anchoring to a big "O" on top of the donut shop. So...any plans for a monorail should definitely include the appropriate donut shops near by as a safety factor...