Winnipeg | Transit | Rapid Transit

[madsad]

Okay...so....what are you guys going to do about it?

Because with the latest announcement, it looks like if Winnipeg gets any sort of rapid transit at all, it will be BRT.

So if you are so dead-set against BRT...

[newflyer]

Originally Posted by RAFS

Okay, that was 5 minutes of my life I will never get back. What a waste of LCD backlighting.

Classic .. LOL

[Greco Roman]

Originally Posted by madsad

Okay...so....what are you guys going to do about it?

What do you mean what are we going to do about it? We all know that BRT is a done deal; some of us don't like it and are just venting is all.

We are allowed to do that, right? Thanks for your concern about us though

[thegreattait]

Well I don't think its a done deal until the money has been spent. I personally tried to contact bombardier to see if I could talk to someone about some price quotes for LRT so that we are working with a real number and not some 800 million to 1.2 billion that someone pulled out of their ass. However to date they have not gotten back to me. I only sent an email, but if someone there wanted to try and call that might show better results.

I'd call but the longdistance rates from Russia aren't exactly cheap.

Also since we do vote in this country we could indicate our displeasure with this plan to our elected representatives at all three levels of government. If enough of support is brought to their attention decisions can be reversed.

I think the most important step to start with is information, we need more solid information so that we are just belting out hot air but that we can back up our statements with some facts and logical reasoning.

Anyone want in on trying to give Winnipeg what it really deserves?

[urbanprince]

Only if you pay for it...

I have seen BRT systems that "look" the same as LRT.... its all perception and marketing. Needs to be done correctly

[MalcolmTucker]

Originally Posted by urbanprince

Only if you pay for it...

I have seen BRT systems that "look" the same as LRT.... its all perception and marketing. Needs to be done correctly

And also how it looks. in france their are rubber wheeled trams on no guideway that just follow a magnetic path in the ground. Had some problems with low ground clearance since they were wearing the exact same path in the road, but that was fixed.

But do you really think they will do this? They will just fun the same old New Flyers on this thing as ever.

[thegreattait]

Originally Posted by urbanprince

Only if you pay for it...

I have seen BRT systems that "look" the same as LRT.... its all perception and marketing. Needs to be done correctly

Sure I'd love to see my tax dollars go towards this, and I plan on paying for it every time I ride on it.

As for perception and marketing, yes I do think that is a factor, our city will have a much better perception and we will be able to market our city more effectively if we make this investment in our infrastructure. This shows business that we are willing to make an investment in our city and that they too should feel confident about bringing their business and their investment dollars to Winnipeg.

As for the difference between BRT and LRT its more then just marketing, trains are faster more reliable, safer, more economical to operate especially with our low hydro rates compared to increasing gas prices. They require less people to operate, saving wages. Overall an LRT is the better long term investment, and doing BRT now with the future hope for LRT is simply foolish as we end up paying more overall, which is a waste of money.

[feepa]

^ the only advantage of doing BRT first is that if LRT later, most of the BRT equipment can be re-used to develop another corridor

[newflyer]

Originally Posted by feepa

^ the only advantage of doing BRT first is that if LRT later, most of the BRT equipment can be re-used to develop another corridor

The BRT platforms they plan on building will be built to the specs of LRT requirements. The Park and Ride areas will also be the same. Same as any pedestrian linkage to a transit platform. The any constructed overpass or underpass will also be utilized for BRT and LRT.

The transit corridor will be utilized by either form of rapid transit .. The end investment to convert to LRT will be laying the track lines, buying LRT cars .. and building LRT maintenance facilities.

[newflyer]

Originally Posted by thegreattait

Well I don't think its a done deal until the money has been spent. I personally tried to contact bombardier to see if I could talk to someone about some price quotes for LRT so that we are working with a real number and not some 800 million to 1.2 billion that someone pulled out of their ass. However to date they have not gotten back to me. I only sent an email, but if someone there wanted to try and call that might show better results.

Calgary's newest LRT leg is budgeted over 800 Million .. and this is a fairly short line. I expect it to be higher than this projected price.

[thegreattait]

Why do you expect it to cost more then calgary's project, what are the reasons I would like to know?

Thanks

[thegreattait]

According to Beltliner a blog on the C Train extensions costs break down as follows:

http://beltliner.blogspot.com/2008/07/expanding-from-new-model-line-203-phase_16.html


$25 million per KM for surface right of way construction (x3.6km =$90million)
$10 million per Station (x 3 or 4 stations = $30 - $40million)

Total= $130 million

I don't think there is an argument that could convince me that constuction costs are higher in Winnipeg then in Calgary. So we should be able to use $25 mil per km

Now there is still lots missing from this such as the underpass at the fort Rouge rail yards and the bridge closer to downtown. Also there were no train car costs, which are $4mil each compared to approx $1 mil each for regular busses but vehicle costs weren't included in the BRT plan so it's hard to say how many are needed etc.

Also a maintenance yard would need to be constructed. No estimates on that other then $200 million which is what the Aurora yard in Calgary will be but that is suppose to be a huge facility that will service their much larger LRT system for like the next 30 years so I don't know if that's a good comparison to add onto this project.

The point I'm trying to make is that the BRT plan is $138 million and basic costs for LRT are $130 plus bridges vehicles and maintenance yard. So its in the ball park. I understand that those unknows in my equation will put the cost above the BRT but I think it shows that its not some super inflated number that should push LRT out of our consideration set of options for this city.

Any comments or help on trying to pin down a more accurate LRT number would be appreciated. I a simply tired of people putting down LRT because of some unknown mythical super expensive cost. Lets try to get some real numbers and make a decision where we know the costs of both options.

[Pootkao]

They already also have the maintenance and housing infrastructure, plus the staff and organizational system in place.

I wonder what the startup costs are? To buy trains/busses? To implement the system? To build housing and maintenance facilities for them? Staffing?

There's a lot of other costs that Calgary has already paid.

[DAVEinEDMONTON]

Originally Posted by thegreattait

According to Beltliner a blog on the C Train extensions costs break down as follows:

http://beltliner.blogspot.com/2008/07/expanding-from-new-model-line-203-phase_16.html


$25 million per KM for surface right of way construction (x3.6km =$90million)
$10 million per Station (x 3 or 4 stations = $30 - $40million)

Total= $130 million

I don't think there is an argument that could convince me that constuction costs are higher in Winnipeg then in Calgary. So we should be able to use $25 mil per km

Now there is still lots missing from this such as the underpass at the fort Rouge rail yards and the bridge closer to downtown. Also there were no train car costs, which are $4mil each compared to approx $1 mil each for regular busses but vehicle costs weren't included in the BRT plan so it's hard to say how many are needed etc.

Also a maintenance yard would need to be constructed. No estimates on that other then $200 million which is what the Aurora yard in Calgary will be but that is suppose to be a huge facility that will service their much larger LRT system for like the next 30 years so I don't know if that's a good comparison to add onto this project.

The point I'm trying to make is that the BRT plan is $138 million and basic costs for LRT are $130 plus bridges vehicles and maintenance yard. So its in the ball park. I understand that those unknows in my equation will put the cost above the BRT but I think it shows that its not some super inflated number that should push LRT out of our consideration set of options for this city.

Any comments or help on trying to pin down a more accurate LRT number would be appreciated. I a simply tired of people putting down LRT because of some unknown mythical super expensive cost. Lets try to get some real numbers and make a decision where we know the costs of both options.

I am not an expert but those costs seem low. And the Calgary blog also shows metro right of way construction at $155 M per kilometer and $92 M per metro station so I guess it all depends if you think an LRT line would be just all on the surface or all underground or a combination of both.

If you can just zip along the surface of a road without regard for automobile traffic flows then it may be reasonable...but if you start factoring in putting LRT tunnels under major intersections or underground so that the LRT can be truly rapid then your costs would increase dramatically.

[thegreattait]

Originally Posted by DAVEinEDMONTON

I am not an expert but those costs seem low. And the Calgary blog also shows metro right of way construction at $155 M per kilometer and $92 M per metro station so I guess it all depends if you think an LRT line would be just all on the surface or all underground or a combination of both.

If you can just zip along the surface of a road without regard for automobile traffic flows then it may be reasonable...but if you start factoring in putting LRT tunnels under major intersections or underground so that the LRT can be truly rapid then your costs would increase dramatically.

Well the BRT Plan is all at surface, except for one underpass and one overpass. So I don't think the Metro construction rates apply. Although I do think it would be wise to build the downtown portion of anysystem underground. However at this point in time I'll push for LRT on the surface. The sticker shock of an underground system might be too much even though its the better design. Calgary is only now considering to do their downtown portion underground but that's not going to happen for a number of years.

[thegreattait]

FYI

Here's an interesting website comparing Subway and LRT construction costs.

http://lrt.daxack.ca/LRTvsHRT/CostCompare.html

"What is the Cost of Building an LRT Line?
Underground: $130 million to $160 million per kilometre
At grade: $30 million to $50 million per kilometre"

Calgary's costs are usually quoted around $24 or $25 million per km Edmonton's first line was about $20 mil per km. So we seem to do LRT cheap in Canada. Even if you look at Edmonton's underground extention it comes in at 147 mil per km that's less then the $200 to $250 mil per km average for underground LRT.

I wish we could find some info on maintenance facilities costs?

[MalcolmTucker]

maintenance facilities costs are dependent on tonnes of factors.

#1 being, is there available land near the planned line? also:

Does the current maintenance facility need a life extension and could instead be incorporated into the new yard (thus saving costs)

What level of maintenance does the system need (some systems ship their cars off for major repairs and overhauls, Calgary is all in house)

Do you wish to automate all the switches in the yard? (Calgary is all manual)

Do you wish to store all trains at night in a central location?

Does switching some of the fleet to LRT reduce the need to build larger bus barns?

Do you wish the new yard to maintain a facility for direct delivery of new light rail vehicles?

and finally:

Do you build your yard for the exact amount of vehicles you purchased, or do you leave room for more to be purchased?

In Calgary, the new maintenance facility (heavy maintenance, no overhaul) came in at $110 million. That is for storage of 60 LRVs in 20,000 square meters, expandable to 108 LRVs. The west line which is approximately 7 km lines will need 30 or so LRVs for 6 minute frequency.

[MalcolmTucker]

Originally Posted by thegreattait

FYI

Here's an interesting website comparing Subway and LRT construction costs.

http://lrt.daxack.ca/LRTvsHRT/CostCompare.html

"What is the Cost of Building an LRT Line?
Underground: $130 million to $160 million per kilometre
At grade: $30 million to $50 million per kilometre"

Calgary's costs are usually quoted around $24 or $25 million per km Edmonton's first line was about $20 mil per km. So we seem to do LRT cheap in Canada. Even if you look at Edmonton's underground extention it comes in at 147 mil per km that's less then the $200 to $250 mil per km average for underground LRT.

I wish we could find some info on maintenance facilities costs?

Calgary and Edmonton both have had favourable cost levels compared to USA systems.

Calgary's CTrain - Effective Capital Utilization
(April 19, 2006)

1.4MB


The entire report is useful, but page nie has the numbers for comparison.

[sledhead35]

pretty informative, thanks

[Tower Crane]

Originally Posted by newflyer

The BRT platforms they plan on building will be built to the specs of LRT requirements. The Park and Ride areas will also be the same. Same as any pedestrian linkage to a transit platform. The any constructed overpass or underpass will also be utilized for BRT and LRT.

The transit corridor will be utilized by either form of rapid transit .. The end investment to convert to LRT will be laying the track lines, buying LRT cars .. and building LRT maintenance facilities.

So are you saying the platforms will be raised to the same elevation you enter an LRT train car at, which is exactly level to the LRT train car floor which is higher than a bus floor?
Are you saying that the platforms will be built as long as a few LRT train cars, typically most platforms are a few cars long?
My firm is involved in working on the Edmonton LRT extension, there is significant electrical and system infrastructure underground and above grade that the LRT trains and platform systems utilize, are you saying that the City of Winnipeg is placing all those systems under the BRT roadway and then only tracks will be required.
I really don't believe for a minute that the construction of BRT Platforms and infrastructure is being built to LRT standards with only the track missing as far as the road/lines go.