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  #1381  
Old Posted Sep 22, 2008, 5:20 AM
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Reed Solomon Reed Solomon is offline
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I'd rather have energy efficient streetcars than oil consuming buses.
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  #1382  
Old Posted Sep 22, 2008, 7:47 AM
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well atleast here we arnt burning oil or coal for our power so that statement is prity true
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  #1383  
Old Posted Sep 22, 2008, 8:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy6 View Post
Right. So you're limiting your options and increasing the price that you can expect to pay as a result of there being fewer potential competitors for your contract.
So you'd rather buy something that won't work to save a few bucks? There is no logic in that at all.
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  #1384  
Old Posted Sep 22, 2008, 1:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DAVEinEDMONTON View Post
Andy6...you have no basis in fact to suggest that their are extra costs because of cold weather...this whole arguement is flawed...other cold Canadian cities have successful LRT systems...weather is not a factor.
a little trigger happy are we? relax bud lol
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  #1385  
Old Posted Sep 22, 2008, 1:25 PM
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Originally Posted by newflyer View Post
I am guessing it would run over 800 million.
im guessing a lot of people jump off the lrt band wagon when they realize somebody has to cough up that near billion bucks
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  #1386  
Old Posted Sep 22, 2008, 3:40 PM
MalcolmTucker MalcolmTucker is offline
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Originally Posted by Andy6 View Post
I don't want to push the "weather argument" too far, but Calgary's climate bears little resemblance to Winnipeg's, e.g. Calgary has 48 days with above-zero highs in December-January-February as compared to 9 days in Winnipeg, and 5 days per year with lows below -30 as opposed to 14 in Winnipeg. Average January high in Calgary is -2.8 C; in Winnipeg it's -12.7 C.

Toronto's "semiexclusive ROW" for a few streetcars doesn't really qualify as "rapid" transit. It's barely better than a bus. I don't see that being enough of an improvement to justify spending $400 million to replace a single bus route with streetcars, supposing that were the cost.
I wasn't talking about on average, I was talking the Calgary days where it is -30 and the like. If you system can still get everyone downtown on our worse days, it will work or could be engineered to work for winnipeg for 99.9% of days,

I don't think you get what the primary benefit of rail is. It isn't speed, frequency, or in most case's capacity (busways top out at about 30k p/h/d, which is competitive for most applications).

Rails main benefit is as a signal of permanence. A big "transit will always be here so it is safe to build apartments and condos".

As for semi exclusive ROWs not being a big benefit, I think you might be mixing it up with pure street running (which is the way the majority of Toronto is). You ban left turns, and you eliminate all but the most major cross streets (all the other intersections become right in, right outs). You place the stations at 800m - 1km apart, and you have massive speed advantages. (not any more than busways with similar road design mind you). you don't need to have fully grade seperated ala Skytrain to get most of the benefits of rail.
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  #1387  
Old Posted Sep 22, 2008, 4:22 PM
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Originally Posted by kyle_olsen View Post
As for semi exclusive ROWs not being a big benefit, I think you might be mixing it up with pure street running (which is the way the majority of Toronto is). You ban left turns, and you eliminate all but the most major cross streets (all the other intersections become right in, right outs). You place the stations at 800m - 1km apart, and you have massive speed advantages. (not any more than busways with similar road design mind you). you don't need to have fully grade seperated ala Skytrain to get most of the benefits of rail.
No, but banning left turns and eliminating cross streets is easier said than done. It can have a devastating effect on businesses and they will let City Hall know that they aren't happy, as they have done in Toronto. Thus the Spadina streetcar with its special ROW is nowhere near as fast as it was intended to be, because the city had to put all the turns and curb cuts back in, in the face of massive opposition from businesses on Spadina and in the Kensington Market. People really don't want uncrossable train lines dividing up their main streets. Anyway, this is not really what is being proposed for Winnipeg, so it is a bit beside the point. In Winnipeg, the proposal seems to be for a completely grade-separated busway, which is achievable in many areas with the use of the city's many railway ROWs. I think that's a pretty good idea if buses are used rather than more costly trains.
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  #1388  
Old Posted Sep 22, 2008, 4:55 PM
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^ If you already have secured ROW, the fully costed difference between a busway and LRT should be rather small, perhaps even positive for the LRT side (since a busway has to buy new buses, buy more fuel, hire more drivers over a 30 year costing cycle).

LRT would also have lower frequency due to higher capacity, so it may actually be cheaper in that you could keep some level crossings.
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  #1389  
Old Posted Sep 22, 2008, 5:12 PM
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Originally Posted by kyle_olsen View Post
^ If you already have secured ROW, the fully costed difference between a busway and LRT should be rather small, perhaps even positive for the LRT side (since a busway has to buy new buses, buy more fuel, hire more drivers over a 30 year costing cycle).

LRT would also have lower frequency due to higher capacity, so it may actually be cheaper in that you could keep some level crossings.
Well, I shouldn't have said completely separated. Rather, there would be long stretches of separated busway and then ordinary city streets would be used as for any other bus. Putting a ROW through downtown is where the costs start to mount, so it makes sense to have a dedicated transitway where that is relatively cheap to accomplish and to use city streets where it isn't. I'm sceptical that you would save money by buying an LRT, which would involve establishing and maintaining a whole parallel set of infrastructure, maintenance facilities, etc. The busway is just scaling up what you've already got.
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  #1390  
Old Posted Sep 22, 2008, 7:17 PM
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^ damn you Andy6 and your voice of reason!
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  #1391  
Old Posted Sep 22, 2008, 8:54 PM
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...St. Louis saw around $1 billion in investment around its MetroLink light rail stations since opening in 1993; Portland, Ore., had more than $3 billion in development around its MAX light rail system since opening in the late 1970s; and commercial properties rose in value by more than 50 percent around Dallas light rail stations.

source: http://www.lightrailnow.org/news/n_abq_2006-07a.htm

also, lots of helpful info on edmonton's lrt system can be found herehttp://www.edmonton.ca/transit/whats_new/LRT_Brochure_2007.pdf
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  #1392  
Old Posted Sep 23, 2008, 9:47 AM
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Yes, but Winnipeg is too cold for investment, and the natives.

Why people even live there is beyond me.

(sarkasmos)
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  #1393  
Old Posted Sep 23, 2008, 11:51 AM
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Originally Posted by newflyer View Post
I took the train from Brentwood to Southland .. there was long delay between Chinnok and Heritage. I think one of the train ahead of us brokedown.
So without that breakdown the Calgary LRT would have actually been quite fast.

Perhaps you should reserve judgement for the 99% of the days that go without an unexpected breakdown.
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  #1394  
Old Posted Sep 23, 2008, 1:35 PM
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Originally Posted by h0twired View Post
So without that breakdown the Calgary LRT would have actually been quite fast.

Perhaps you should reserve judgement for the 99% of the days that go without an unexpected breakdown.

Sorry buddy, but newflyer is right, and you 99% is more like 70%. My buddy is down in Calgay for school and takes the C-train. He's been there since the beginning of September, and three times the train has broken down. Plus, the trains are so over-crowded that many are left out in the cold having to wait for the next train, or even the train after.

For such a rich city, Calgary sure can't seem to find the brainpower and operate it's rapid transit system efficiently.
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  #1395  
Old Posted Sep 23, 2008, 4:05 PM
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^ You have to remember that most LRT systems run at 5 or 6 minute frequency, and alot run at 10 or 15 minute frequency (in the USA at least). Calgary attempts to run a 3 minute frequency, and if one person holds a door on a train and a train misses a light the effects ripple throughout the entire system. The system's problem is too many people are using it, since it is very effective at what it was designed to do.

Hopefully one day Winnipeg will be fortunate enough to have a system the is over capacity, that will create the political will to build or upgrade to a more cadillac system (as Calgary is planning on doing in the next decade).
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  #1396  
Old Posted Sep 23, 2008, 9:17 PM
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Worst mistake in city’s history: Poverty capital opts for ghetto busway

while some of this is obviously biased and/or misleading, i did find it interesting. also, number 11 makes too much sense for me too ignore source:http://www.truwinnipeg.org/

Here are 11 facts regarding the $138+million, 3.5km dedicated busway that was recently announced.

1. Buses are not rapid transit. Nor can they ever be. Rapid transit, by definition, involves rail vehicles running on their own right-of-way—above or below the ground. In the strictest sense, most LRT systems are not even rapid transit, but streetcar lines running on their own limited surface rights-of-way (often blocking, and sometimes colliding with, vehicle traffic at the surface level). In a truly Orwellian attempt to redefine the phrase, the local media has used the term “rapid transit” as a synonym for “busways,” usually with the pretense that there is no other possible form of rapid transit.

2. BRT will never become LRT. Assuming this metamorphosis takes 30 years, as has been the case in Ottawa, if you are over 45 chances are you will die before seeing busways become LRT lines. If the whole concern is cost, why are we talking about building two systems—a “BRT” busway and then an LRT atop it? Would it not make sense to build the system correctly in the first place? The Winnipeg Sun, in response to a letter lamenting the decision to go BRT over LRT, replied that “LRT will never happen here,” seemingly oblivious to the fact that light rail vehicles ran throughout the city (and eventually beyond) from 1891 to 1955.


LRTs were popular in Winnipeg in 1906 but in 2008 the Winnipeg Sun says they’ll never happen here?

3. Contrary to common misperception, the aim of Rapid Transit is not merely to move persons from A to B more quickly, but to add value to the land surrounding stations. So-called “Bus Rapid Transit” has never demonstrated the ability to do this (unsurprisingly so, since it relies on bus freeways and freeways are detrimental to urban land values) whereas the most effective mode for adding value and fostering density is underground heavy rail—subways. While the BRT advocates (who say we “can’t afford” a subway) ridiculously claim that tax-increment financing will pay for the busway project as properties near “stations” are developed, the entire inner city of Winnipeg remains grossly undervalued and filled with derelict homes and vacant lots. The Wilson subway would bring 8 high-volume subterranean rail stations to the downtown, and dozens of stations throughout the inner city, with each having a supercharging effect on adjacent land values, prompting dense development on vacant lots and the further infilling of already medium- and high-density neighborhoods. Such a collection of high-density, high-foot traffic nodes together would constitute a safe, high-value, tourist-magnetic strolling experience that would significantly expand our city’s tourism industry. Needless to say, a busway cannot accomplish any of this.

4. Our winters are unbearable. Regardless of outsiders’ observations that we are “a hardy bunch” when it comes to handling the snowy season, the fact remains we are an Extreme Cold Weather city that requires a transportation lifeline ensuring quick, easy, comfortable travel in conditions of heavy snowfall and ultra-cold temperatures. For good reason, human beings are naturally repelled by temperatures in which they would not long survive outside, and a subway system represents the only solution to this significant drawback to life in Winnipeg, and our only hope for consistently attracting visitors and new residents to endure the harsher months.

5. Winnipeg has a poor reputation. Nationally, internationally—all the Guy Maddin movies and Take Pride! sloganeering can do nothing to alleviate the terror felt by the family from Fargo as they stroll outside their downtown hotel at night and struggle to find a cafe or anything open as they are accosted by roving groups of aggressive, solvent-huffing panhandlers. This is not so much an issue with the panhandlers (every downtown has them) as with the lack of perceived value in the downtown that created such a void as to remove almost everyone else at night, and thus leave tourists with the perception that, at night, the streets are overrun with derelicts. In most parts of downtown there is more land taken up by surface parking lots than by building structures. In the 8 years I have been publishing articles on this subject this fact hasn’t at all been alleviated. A busway, or even a full-scale rapid bus network, will do nothing to help our reputation either. Regardless of whether you think “I live here and I love it!” the fact remains that perceptions of a city are formed by the state of its downtown, and even the most patriotic of residents would agree that our downtown is among the country’s most foreboding and dangerous. Curing our ailing core once and for all ought to be our city’s first priority, and the Wilson subway plan is the best hope, indeed the only hope, for a quick and total transformation of the inner city’s economic conditions.

6. It doesn’t go where most people are going. The proposed BRT “stations” are isolated some distance from major concentrations of residence or commerce. The “Osborne Station,” for example, will be at Osborne & Warsaw, in the dead industrial no man’s land between Osborne Village and South Osborne. (The Wilson subway plan, by contrast, would put underground stations on Osborne Street at River and Corydon Avenues.) “Morley Station” lies in the middle of a rail yard, hundreds of meters from the corner of Osborne (an existing commercial cluster where the Wilson subway would have a two-line stop) and from Pembina Highway (which isn’t exactly pedestrian-oriented). If you thought a winter walk to the bus stop was too far before, wait’ll you try getting to these new BRT stations. This use-it-because-it’s-there approach to piggybacking a freight line does not make sense since it fails to deliver passengers directly to major intersections. Moreover, the initial aim here is to speed travel to and from the University of Manitoba, to where 30,000 students and faculty arrive regularly. But what about the other 670,000 Winnipeggers who seldom have occasion to visit the University? The Wilson subway plan’s hub-and-spoke system saturates coverage within a 8km radius of Portage and Main–returning the focus of the city to our downtown and main intersection, not far-flung suburbs.

7. Inner cities are for the wealthy. It’s not just rising gas prices that are prompting prosperous persons—married, single, young, old—to live closer to workplaces, shopping, dining, nightlife, and friends. It’s a lifestyle choice, a social pendulum swing as the flight of the ’60s and ’70s inverts itself to a return in the ’00s. Small lots are easier to maintain—what do suburbanites do with all that lawn? The value in neighborhoods like Chicago’s Lincoln Park or Vancouver’s Grandview or Toronto’s Riverdale is in the proximity to services, especially rapid rail transport. While Winnipeg neighborhoods such as Wolseley are equipped with superb housing stock, the concentration of services is insufficient for the neighborhood to become ultra-desirable. In the absence of a cohesive storefront shopping district, Wolseley residents are obliged to procure goods and services via automobile along the strip-malls of a highway-like Portage Avenue, or among the big boxes of the St. James Industrial Park. The Blue Line (Portage-Main-Mountain) of the Wilson subway would turn stations into multi-storey development nodes, creating a Champs-Elysee effect along Portage Avenue, sending Wolseley and West End property values nearer to their neighborhood counterparts in other major markets. In other words, wealthier persons are more likely to be drawn from the suburbs to a dense urban setting if they can walk from their homes to a happening strip with cafes, groceries (notice the plural), gyms, dog spas, phamacies, mobile phone retailers, etc. that is fed customers from other neighborhoods, cities, even countries from an underground subway station that carries passengers to other happening strips throughout the city grid.

8. Regular bus routes once ran much more frequently. In 1993, during late weekday evenings, the 18 North Main-Corydon bus ran every 13 minutes; now it runs every 21 minutes. That’s the difference between just waiting at a stop or having to call TeleBus. Given the hassle of that extra step, many of us (OK, most of us) would rather just get in our car, even after a few drinks. And by 1993, route frequencies had already been cut. TRU Winnipeg belives the $138 million would be better spent making existing routes run more frequently—i.e., putting more buses on the road—and extending service hours (with major routes running round-the-clock) rather than paving an inconveniently placed busway that will, at best, shave mere minutes off travel times.

9. We can afford a subway. If a 3.5 km busway is going to cost $138+million without adding any appreciable land value to the tax base, what would an entire network run? Two billion? For that price, you can build a lot of subway—which has a proven effect on bolstering land values. A trebling of tax revenues from our dangerously devalued inner city will go a long way to paying for the construction costs of the 40km Wilson subway.

10. The Letellier Line (CN tracks west of Pembina, south from Jubilee) is owned by CN, which has stated it will not relinquish the land to the city for BRT, LRT or any other purpose. How the busway will be extended from Jubilee to the University has not been explicity said.

11. Winnipeg is not Calgary. Nor Edmonton. With our vast pre-1920 built up area of packed-together houses, three-storey walk up blocks, gridded streets, front porches, and back lanes, we are better suited to developing a larger urban culture. The notion that Winnipeg’s downtown is “too big” is an absurd myth. How can you have too large a concentration of commerce, industry, and residence? Our downtown isn’t too big, just too sparse (everywhere you see an empty lot or surface parking lot downtown today there was almost certainly a building in 1946), a developmental result of being under-serviced by transit since the dismantling of our streetcar (LRT) system in 1955. The Park-’N'-Ride, rail-rights-of-way LRT model more befits a city like Calgary which is mostly comprised of post-1960s low-density suburban sprawl, but an older city such as Winnipeg is, like Toronto, better suited to subway and streetcar vehicles that deliver people along the busiest streets and directly to the busiest intersections. As Jeff Lowe and others have written, the covert aim of BRT is indeed to facilitate sprawl by making the suburbs, rather than the inner city, the focus of transit service. Putative “progressives” who claim to oppose sprawl yet support BRT are only being hoodwinked.
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  #1397  
Old Posted Sep 23, 2008, 9:31 PM
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Okay, that was 5 minutes of my life I will never get back. What a waste of LCD backlighting.
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  #1398  
Old Posted Sep 23, 2008, 10:29 PM
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$2 billion does not buy you a "lot of subway". The proposed TTC extension into Vaughan is six stops (8.6 km) and is projected at $2 billion in 2006 dollars. At that rate, the Wilson subway would come in at something around $15 billion in 2006 dollars.

Although it is possible, even in a slow-growth city like Winnipeg, that buildings might be constructed around some stations, this is not necessarily an addition to the tax base, since a lot of this construction would have taken place elsewhere in the city anyway and is now simply being shifted to a new location adjacent to the station.
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  #1399  
Old Posted Sep 24, 2008, 4:21 AM
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Above and Below Grade LRT

It's been mentioned that subways are heavy rail systems and above grade LRT light rail systems. With Edmonton having the entire LRT system downtown below grade as a subway system and outside of downtown an above grade system does that mean it has heavy and light rail?
This above and below grade system could work for Winnipeg couldn't it?
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  #1400  
Old Posted Sep 24, 2008, 4:50 AM
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It's been mentioned that subways are heavy rail systems and above grade LRT light rail systems. With Edmonton having the entire LRT system downtown below grade as a subway system and outside of downtown an above grade system does that mean it has heavy and light rail?
This above and below grade system could work for Winnipeg couldn't it?
I do not think that heavy rail versus LRT is based on below or above grade. Vancouver, Calgary and Edmonton all have the similiar systems and all will eventually have downtown portions underground and the balance at the surface or above ground. Winnipeg should go the same way with underground LRT in downtown so that it does not conflict with downtown traffic flows and above ground at some point past the downtown area. Definitely, Winnipeg should do it right the first time and go underground in downtown...however, that just adds to the overall expense of putting in a first line.

As for TODs along LRT stations, it is something that takes years to develop. Vancouver and Toronto maybe have been good at developing TODs but Calgary and Edmonton have just gotten the idea to invest in TODs and look how long these cities have had LRTs. I think it is due to the fact that you need to build the LRT where someone actually wants to live. Edmonton built stations early on along the railway right of way to accomodate sports facilities which was not necessarily the best place to pick up potential ridership via TODs. Hopefully, Winnipeg would learn from Edmonton's and Calgary's mistakes and do it right the first time.
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