Winnipeg | Transit | Rapid Transit

[Andy6]

Originally Posted by wpgcityone

33 buses a year out of a total of over 2500 isn't exactly subsidizing the whole company, and Winnipeg Transit also buys some of the most basic buses that we (New Flyer) make.

Great, so it's clear that New Flyer doesn't need any special treatment from the City of Winnipeg and equally clear that it shouldn't receive any.

[The Jabroni]

Originally Posted by Andy6

Great, so it's clear that New Flyer doesn't need any special treatment from the City of Winnipeg and equally clear that it shouldn't receive any.

Does it have to anyway?

Hell, does any (and I mean ANY) Manitoba based company deserve any special treatment from the local government? I think not.

[thegreattait]

I believe buying locally does have some spinoffs, think for example about property taxes, payroll taxes and business taxes that this business pays to the city. If two products are equal and cost the same then the city should buy locally, it would be in their best "tax" interest to do so.

[Pootkao]

NewFlyer - while your venom is impressive, your blame is misplaced.

The Norwood Bridges were already well over budget when Murray became mayor. He inherited the problem from Susan Thompson.

[drew]

Originally Posted by Andy6

Why should Winnipeg taxpayers subsidize New Flyer, which is a private company? We subsidized them more than long enough when they were owned by the Province. If you tell New Flyer in advance that they've got the Winnipeg market locked up, what incentive do they have to provide Winnipeg with high-quality, innovative products? The purpose of Winnipeg Transit is to provide the best possible transit for Winnipeg at the lowest price, not to provide corporate welfare to New Flyer.
[/lecture]

I have to admit that I really haven't been on all that many different types of buses, but really what makes New Flyer buses that bad? Give me an example of what makes a transit bus "innovative". New Flyer buses take a licking and keep on ticking. We have probably the harshest environment to operate a bus in year round, and I think New Flyer puts out a pretty decent product all things considered.

As for your other arguments, I may point out that the American auto industry is (up until recently) a fairly good example of how a captive market can be a benefit to the local economy.

But really Andy6, I think you are trying to argue the point simply for arguments sake. Buying local (when possible) should be the goal of all consumers.

Transit buses are manufactured in Winnipeg. Winnipeg transit buys Winnnipeg buses, and many other cities buy these same buses that Winnipeg does... There really isn't much else to say.

[Pootkao]

^Some of the busses I rode in Barcelona a couple weeks ago were stunning. Clean, pristine, slick, spatious and comfortable. Oh, and only 1.3 euro. Ha.

[Andy6]

Originally Posted by Pootkao

^Some of the busses I rode in Barcelona a couple weeks ago were stunning. Clean, pristine, slick, spatious and comfortable. Oh, and only 1.3 euro. Ha.

Could they stay that way through 5 months of snow and subzero temperatures, though?

I agree 100% if what you're saying is that what Winnipeg needs to spend its money on is better bus service for the whole city, with the fancy Barcelona-style buses, busways wherever possible and frequent service. No wasting time and money on pie-in-the-sky LRT dreams that would leave the city broke and 80% of its residents out in the cold waiting for the same dismal buses they have now.

[Only The Lonely..]

I can appreciate what you're trying to say Andy..

But, I don't think that frequency is really the issue. Ohh sure, it matters to the people who already take the bus but to the suburban communter who is used to travelling alone by car more buses just look like more of the same.

For these affluent types, the bus is the 'loser cruiser'.

LRT is something that everybody would try at least once. It's in this initial novelty stage that transit really has a chance to woo suburban households.

And when these people see that they can get to wherever they're going faster and cheaper than they could have by car, that's when the magic happens.

That's just my view, albeit an expensive vision for transit in this city. But, I think it's going to have to take something pretty colossal to shake this town's level of automobile dependence.

[h0twired]

Originally Posted by newflyer

All the hoopla aside ...

I just rode the Calgary "rapid" transit sytem for over an hour to get home. I think the romanic fantasy of Rapid Transit will end soon after it is up and running.

What route did you take?

Unless you went from one end to the other and there was some unforseen accident or breakdown, I highly doubt you were on the C-Train for an hour.

[vid]

Every city buys Newflyer buses. They're as ubiquitous as GMs Fishbowls were in the 80s. Winnipeg doesn't need to subsidize them but considering Winnipeggers and Manitobans work there is makes sense. (They have an edge -- delivery is cheaper, and in Thunder Bay, that counts for ten points toward whether or not the company receives the contract.) Tax dollars stay in the region so in a way its cheaper. (Thunder Bay actually buys buses from Quebec, but we were among the first to get Newflyer D40LFs.)

Again, Edmonton is colder than Winnipeg and its LRT works fine. Ottawa is snowier than Winnipeg and its LRT works fine. What is the problem with LRT in Winnipeg? Edmonton and Calgary had little more than half as many people when they built their LRT systems, and were less dense. The area Ottawa's O-Train serves has maybe 400,000 people.

[Greco Roman]

Originally Posted by vid

Again, Edmonton is colder than Winnipeg and its LRT works fine. Ottawa is snowier than Winnipeg and its LRT works fine. What is the problem with LRT in Winnipeg? Edmonton and Calgary had little more than half as many people when they built their LRT systems, and were less dense. The area Ottawa's O-Train serves has maybe 400,000 people.

Nothing, it's just that some people really don't want the city to invest in more efficient rail-based transport. Apparently they can justify it working everywhere; Vancouver, Edmonton, Calgary, Toronto, Montreal, Minneapolis, hell even Saskatoon. But for some strange, cosmic reasoning, not in Winnipeg.

🞵🞵🞵🞵, I'd bet there are people who would justify rail public transport in Thunder Bay before Winnipeg, because it's just that type of city.

[vid]

Yes, but building condos downtown will wipe the 7400 meter long, 500 meter high 3 billion year old rock formation 27 kilometres across the harbour off the face of the earth.

Nimbies say the darnedest things.

[Andy6]

Originally Posted by Greco Roman

Nothing, it's just that some people really don't want the city to invest in more efficient rail-based transport. Apparently they can justify it working everywhere; Vancouver, Edmonton, Calgary, Toronto, Montreal, Minneapolis, hell even Saskatoon. But for some strange, cosmic reasoning, not in Winnipeg.

🞵🞵🞵🞵, I'd bet there are people who would justify rail public transport in Thunder Bay before Winnipeg, because it's just that type of city.

There's nothing "cosmic" about it other than the astronomical cost. Rail public transport is extremely expensive. Even Toronto can't afford to build any more of it, and the Saskatoon thing is an urban legend. Does anyone even know how much an LRT from the University of Manitoba to downtown Winnipeg would cost? Trying to find a reasonable ballpark figure would be a good first step toward assessing the merits of such a proposal. I'm guessing it would be something on the order of $500-750 million, but I don't know for sure.

Vid, Winnipeg is significantly colder in the winter than Edmonton, despite being far to the south of Edmonton.

[Greco Roman]

Originally Posted by Andy6

and the Saskatoon thing is an urban legend.

Hardly. The city has already secured tracks of land for the future LRT tracks to be laid down.

Originally Posted by Andy6

Vid, Winnipeg is significantly colder in the winter than Edmonton, despite being far to the south of Edmonton.

Here is a complete exaggeration. From someone who actually lives in Edmonton, Winnipeg is NOT that much colder. Somewhat perhaps, but in no way significantly.

[supai]

Originally Posted by Greco Roman

Hardly. The city has already secured tracks of land for the future LRT tracks to be laid down.



Here is a complete exaggeration. From someone who actually lives in Edmonton, Winnipeg is NOT that much colder. Somewhat perhaps, but in no way significantly.

In terms of average temps it doesn't seem to be too much of a difference. Edmonton does have extreme cold but there is definetly much more days above zero in the winter. Given how much farther north it is quite interesting.

[supai]

Double

[madsad]

Originally Posted by Greco Roman

Hardly. The city has already secured tracks of land for the future LRT tracks to be laid down.

There are no formal plans or commitments for light rail in Saskatoon of any sort. All there is is hearsay, wishful thinking, and conjecture from politicians, etc. I don't know where you are getting this from.

[DAVEinEDMONTON]

Originally Posted by Andy6

There's nothing "cosmic" about it other than the astronomical cost. Rail public transport is extremely expensive. Even Toronto can't afford to build any more of it, and the Saskatoon thing is an urban legend. Does anyone even know how much an LRT from the University of Manitoba to downtown Winnipeg would cost? Trying to find a reasonable ballpark figure would be a good first step toward assessing the merits of such a proposal. I'm guessing it would be something on the order of $500-750 million, but I don't know for sure.

Funding an LRT system is the biggest issue in my opinion and the other is the political will.

Edmonton and Calgary with hot economies can afford the extra cost and they get lots of provincial financial help. I would think things would be really different if there was not competition amongst both cities and if there was only one major center in the province like in Manitoba. Hamilton is looking at LRT because I am sure it knows that it can count on a certain amount of dollars from the Ontario government. It would be pretty hard to justify giving all the funds to Toronto and Ottawa and not allow Hamilton to benefit as well. As for Vancouver, everyone in Metro Vancouver pays a transit surcharge on every litre of gas which helps to fund Translink expansion. And the Skytrain is still 🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵 expensive at $5 for a trip if you are going all three zones during peak hours.

[Andy6]

Just for the record, the daily average temperatures for December, January and February in Edmonton are -10, -12, -8; for Winnipeg the corresponding figures are -14, -18, -14.

Average number of days with above zero maximum temperatures in those three months are: Edmonton, 10, 8, 12; Winnipeg 3, 2, 4. So Edmonton would have 30 days of above zero temps in DJF and Winnipeg would have 9 days.

Average number of days with below -30 minimum temperatures are: Edmonton, 1, 2, 1; Winnipeg, 3, 7, 3. In a year, Edmonton has 4 days where the temperature goes below -30, Winnipeg has 14.

[Greco Roman]

Originally Posted by Andy6

Just for the record, the daily average temperatures for December, January and February in Edmonton are -10, -12, -8; for Winnipeg the corresponding figures are -14, -18, -14.

Average number of days with above zero maximum temperatures in those three months are: Edmonton, 10, 8, 12; Winnipeg 3, 2, 4. So Edmonton would have 30 days of above zero temps in DJF and Winnipeg would have 9 days.

Average number of days with below -30 minimum temperatures are: Edmonton, 1, 2, 1; Winnipeg, 3, 7, 3. In a year, Edmonton has 4 days where the temperature goes below -30, Winnipeg has 14.

This is not enough to justify that it's too cold in Winnipeg to substantiate an LRT system. 10 more days of "average" will not make that much of a difference on how LRT functions in the long run as a whole. Buses break down in cold weather, cars break down in cold weather. Maybe Winnipeg shouldn't persue these kinds of modes of transport because it is "too cold". The argument of weather is a ridiculous one. Maybe next will be the argument of hot and humid weather and how it will affect LRT functions.

Again, I'm praying that the BRT will eventually convert into LRT sooner rather than later.