Winnipeg | Transit | Rapid Transit

[Greco Roman]

Originally Posted by Pootkao

Greco: The only neighbourhood in Winnipeg which even comes close to European density is Osborne Village and South Broadway. And even then, there's still a world of difference.

But with LRT (and other forms of rail-based transit), as has happened in both Edmonton and Calgary, and undoubtedly Vancouver, Montreal, Toronto, etc., higher density neighborhood appeared along these lines. I see no reason why this would be different in Winnipeg. We don't need european density standards to qualify for LRT; North American standards will do just fine.

[Spocket]

^Well that's true but how long will that take ? I would guess it'll take a lot longer than say 20 or 30 years. We'd have to seriously concentrate on the kind of development we'd need to warrant LRT. In the interim, if we built LRT right now, we'd be paying a fortune for a system we don't need.

I think we'd all like LRT but then again, we'd probably all also like to own a million dollar condo on the sixtieth floor. If this city wants to build an LRT line right now then we could probably get used to it being the only LRT line we'll see in our lifetimes. Winnipeg is simply not the kind of city where LRT is a requirement either now or in the foreseeable future. First we have to get our elected officials to rethink what kind of a city they want this to be. BRT can and will have the same effect as LRT at the stations. It won't be the draw that LRT would but then again, even if LRT somehow managed to attract %5 more people to public transit, it still wouldn't be enough to cover the cost of the system. Neither will BRT but it won't cost us nearly as much to begin with.

We all know that we need to add density to make LRT viable. There is precious little that I've heard about to suggest we've entered a new era in this city and from now on , there'll be less sprawl and more infill. And before anybody says it, one need only look at how Calgary is laid out to see why their system is so successful. Those same conditions simply don't exist in Winnipeg.

[Pootkao]

I never said LRT wasn't possible without Euro-style density. LRT is very possible and do-able in this city. I just don't think it'll happen for another 10 or more years.

You just seemed to give certain neighbourhoods more 'density' clout than they really have.

Originally Posted by Greco Roman

But with LRT (and other forms of rail-based transit), as has happened in both Edmonton and Calgary, and undoubtedly Vancouver, Montreal, Toronto, etc., higher density neighborhood appeared along these lines. I see no reason why this would be different in Winnipeg. We don't need european density standards to qualify for LRT; North American standards will do just fine.

[MalcolmTucker]

Density will come later, build now! In Calgary the first line was built along an auto oriented commercial strip adjacent to 1950s and 1960s 3-4 unit per acre suburbs. As long as you have the capital funding, you end up saving money, since with LRT you can significantly reduce your operating costs, by right sizing your bus fleet.

The density won't come with buses, or rather density that comes with BRT is an exception, not a rule. There is a reason when Portland replaced a popular bus route with a street car (not even LRT) it tripled ridership and spurred close to $600 million dollars of new construction along the route within the first two years of operation. The problem with buses isn't technical, it is psychological. Buses=transient, rail = permenant. Who wants to be stuck holding the bag when the bus route is massively reconfigured or dismantled when a different city council is elected?

Once you build rail, developers will start putting together parcels to redevelop. It might take 10 years, but market forces are slowly at work getting ready for redevelopment.

As long as city council is in a position to say to NIMBYs that since the LRT exists, they are going to have to deal with redevelopment (and not cave to entrenched residents) then everything should work out fine.

Sure Winnipegs layout and employment concentrations are rather normal, and not crazy concentrated like Calgary's, but lots of cities have LRTs that are successful even with ridership far short of Calgary's level.

St. Louis's LRT gets fewer than 70k riders a day, so does Denvers, but that doesn't mean they aren't very successful. Even Portlands much vaunted LRT system only has just under 120k boardings a day.

[rrskylar]

Here's what were getting instead of the rapid transit plan originally proposed by Glen Murray and canceled by Sam Katz: Bronx Park Senior Centre





from the Freep

[nordique]

Originally Posted by rrskylar

Here's what were getting instead of the rapid transit plan originally proposed by Glen Murray and canceled by Sam Katz: Bronx Park Senior Centre





from the Freep

its kind of ironic how probably all of these seniors used to ride those electric streetcars this city used to have, like everyday. and now they've nabbed our hopes of a similar future so they have a safe place to play cribbage.

[sledhead35]

lol while i share bitterness towards this irony, im pretty sure things like this are inevitable. after all, its the least a government can do for those who have handed over their paychecks for decades.

[vid]

Yes, we should coddle the few who will die soon at the expensive of the many who have decided not to put up with their nimby — anymore and relocated.

Actually, that makes sense, doesn't it?

[Only The Lonely..]

Originally Posted by nordique

its kind of ironic how probably all of these seniors used to ride those electric streetcars this city used to have, like everyday. and now they've nabbed our hopes of a similar future so they have a safe place to play cribbage.

Hilarious.

[newflyer]

Originally Posted by rrskylar

Here's what were getting instead of the rapid transit plan originally proposed by Glen Murray and canceled by Sam Katz: Bronx Park Senior Centre





from the Freep

Can anyone imagine if Winnipeg pursued the Murray $50M "rapid" transit system... which included no solid financial plan (as per Doer's recent statements of the "old" plan.) A Disney plan .. with a Tinker Town budget. It would have been yet another fiasco, I am very sure.

50 Million buys little to nothing even close to rapid transit.... as compared to Katz who has aleady poured 130 million to upgrade the current transit system ... and then another 130 million for this proposed BRT (with more to be annouced). Stay tuned.

[Only The Lonely..]

Originally Posted by newflyer

Can anyone imagine if Winnipeg pursued the Murray $50M "rapid" transit system... which included no solid financial plan (as per Doer's recent statements of the "old" plan.) A Disney plan .. with a Tinker Town budget. It would have been yet another fiasco, I am very sure.

50 Million buys little to nothing even close to rapid transit.... as compared to Katz who has aleady poured 130 million to upgrade the current transit system ... and then another 130 million for this proposed BRT (with more to be annouced). Stay tuned.

But if he spent all $260 million on the Pembina line we'd have LRT. Which is all anyone asked for anyways.

[Spocket]

Originally Posted by newflyer

Can anyone imagine if Winnipeg pursued the Murray $50M "rapid" transit system... which included no solid financial plan (as per Doer's recent statements of the "old" plan.) A Disney plan .. with a Tinker Town budget. It would have been yet another fiasco, I am very sure.

50 Million buys little to nothing even close to rapid transit.... as compared to Katz who has aleady poured 130 million to upgrade the current transit system ... and then another 130 million for this proposed BRT (with more to be annouced). Stay tuned.

Actually, it was $70 million and it was pretty much the exact same thing as we're getting right now.
You could argue that it would have cost more than $70 million but it still wouldn't have cost as much as it does today. Plus we'd already have it.

As well, please,...just stop with this — about Katz's $130 million dollars in upgrades. Not only is there no sign of them, there wouldn't be since that figure isn't any great departure from the usual budget. In adjusted dollars it's like a seven percent increase which is being whittled away by rising fuel costs anyway.
Katz might not be making things worse for transit but he's not really making things any better either. We waited how many years for him to give us what we already had coming before he took office ? Gee Katz...thanks. Now it costs that much more.

[sledhead35]

ok, ok we get it. we should have done this a long time ago because it would have been cheaper. katz isnt the hero he's made out to be. now that we've all accepted that, lets be happy we're getting what we're getting. from what im hearing, this plan is better planned, better budgeted etc, now lets get this damn thing built already.

[ILYR]

Originally Posted by sledhead35

ok, ok we get it. we should have done this a long time ago because it would have been cheaper. katz isnt the hero he's made out to be. now that we've all accepted that, lets be happy we're getting what we're getting. from what im hearing, this plan is better planned, better budgeted etc, now lets get this damn thing built already.

Well if it wasn't for Katz we wouldn't get to hear the bus driver mumble something illegible before every stop. Will that be his legacy to Winnipeg Transit?

[hexrae]

Ok, forget the plan and let's adopt this one...

WFP
Advocacy group says rapid transit corridor not worth the money

Updated: September 18 at 11:26 AM CDT

City hall has embarked on a rapid transit plan that is too costly and risky, a national advocacy group said this morning.

The Canadian Taxpayers Federation panned last week's announcement by the city and the province of a $327 million rapid transit corridor between the city's downtown and the University of Manitoba.

Instead, the group called on the city to continue to pursue a trial to install devices that allow approaching buses to signal traffic lights to turn green or remain green longer.

"The governments' (rapid transit) proposal will cost hundreds of millions of dollars, service only one part of the city and isn't based on a completed business plan," Colin Craig, the CTF's Manitoba director said, in a statement.

"It would be more prudent to continue with the original plan of conducting an active transit signal priority pilot project down Pembina Highway for a few million dollars."

The CTF statement said transit systems around the world have reduced the travel times of buses by about 40 per cent through the use of priority signalling systems.

"Ultimately, buses spend less time waiting at red lights, use less fuel and produce less pollution," the statement said.

The city told the CTF the pilot project would be moved to a different location in the wake of the rapid transit announcement involving Pembina Highway, the CTF statement went on to say.

[nordique]

what the hell is the point of that? the drivers will still have to deal with all the traffic and construction and everything on the road? but it will have a 5 second longer green light?

what a brilliant foolproof plan.

[Pootkao]

highways and underpasses only benefit specific portions of the city as well.
its bogus kneejerk conservative wankery.

[flatlander]

Originally Posted by hexrae

Ok, forget the plan and let's adopt this one...

WFP
Advocacy group says rapid transit corridor not worth the money

Updated: September 18 at 11:26 AM CDT

City hall has embarked on a rapid transit plan that is too costly and risky, a national advocacy group said this morning.

The Canadian Taxpayers Federation panned last week's announcement by the city and the province of a $327 million rapid transit corridor between the city's downtown and the University of Manitoba.

Instead, the group called on the city to continue to pursue a trial to install devices that allow approaching buses to signal traffic lights to turn green or remain green longer.

"The governments' (rapid transit) proposal will cost hundreds of millions of dollars, service only one part of the city and isn't based on a completed business plan," Colin Craig, the CTF's Manitoba director said, in a statement.

"It would be more prudent to continue with the original plan of conducting an active transit signal priority pilot project down Pembina Highway for a few million dollars."

The CTF statement said transit systems around the world have reduced the travel times of buses by about 40 per cent through the use of priority signalling systems.

"Ultimately, buses spend less time waiting at red lights, use less fuel and produce less pollution," the statement said.

The city told the CTF the pilot project would be moved to a different location in the wake of the rapid transit announcement involving Pembina Highway, the CTF statement went on to say.

What say you Newflyer?! Who is correct - Katz or the taxpayers federation?

[The Jabroni]

Originally Posted by hexrae

Ok, forget the plan and let's adopt this one...

WFP
Advocacy group says rapid transit corridor not worth the money

Updated: September 18 at 11:26 AM CDT

City hall has embarked on a rapid transit plan that is too costly and risky, a national advocacy group said this morning.

The Canadian Taxpayers Federation panned last week's announcement by the city and the province of a $327 million rapid transit corridor between the city's downtown and the University of Manitoba.

Instead, the group called on the city to continue to pursue a trial to install devices that allow approaching buses to signal traffic lights to turn green or remain green longer.

"The governments' (rapid transit) proposal will cost hundreds of millions of dollars, service only one part of the city and isn't based on a completed business plan," Colin Craig, the CTF's Manitoba director said, in a statement.

"It would be more prudent to continue with the original plan of conducting an active transit signal priority pilot project down Pembina Highway for a few million dollars."

The CTF statement said transit systems around the world have reduced the travel times of buses by about 40 per cent through the use of priority signalling systems.

"Ultimately, buses spend less time waiting at red lights, use less fuel and produce less pollution," the statement said.

The city told the CTF the pilot project would be moved to a different location in the wake of the rapid transit announcement involving Pembina Highway, the CTF statement went on to say.

/facedesk

[1ajs]

Originally Posted by ILYR

Well if it wasn't for Katz we wouldn't get to hear the bus driver mumble something illegible before every stop. Will that be his legacy to Winnipeg Transit?

wrong that was forced on the city by a human rights thingy