Canada Line | Completed

[twoNeurons]

I thought I'd share something interesting I've been working on:

It's a complilation of average speed for Vancouver's Lines. I've done them for Toronto, Montreal, Calgary and Edmonton too.

LINE: RAV
Length: 19km
Stations: 16
Avg. Dist: 1188m (Avg distance between stations)
Travel time: 32 minutes (combined including airport leg)
Speed: 36km/h

LINE: Expo
Length: 28.9km
Stations: 20
Avg. Dist: 1445m
Travel Time: 39
Speed: 44km/h

Millennium Line
Length: 20.3km
Stations: 13
Avg. Dist: 1562m
Travel Time: 29 min. (Columbia to VCC)
Speed: 42km/h

AVERAGE
Length: 68.2km
Stations: 49
Avg. Dist.: 1392m
Travel Time: 100 min.
Speed: 41km/h


I'm not totally sure about the Canada Line Data, but it's considerably slower on average. I wonder if this is a product of more closely spaced stations and slower acceleration (I believe LIM is still faster to accelerate than the ROTEM trains). THOUGHTS?

Of course, this isn't as critical as the other lines as the Canada line doesn't compete with highways and is a shorter distance, but it's food for thought.

[fever]

When I was talking about regional rail the other day I did a similar analysis on the WCE line. Basically I performed a regression analysis on the schedule to tease out the typical operating speed and the total stopping time (i.e. the time it would take to add a stop, including decel, dwell, and accel). I ignored the Port Moody - Waterfront section because it's much slower than the rest of the line. The operating speed is 110 km/h and the stopping time is 3:45 s.

I've been on metros that accelerate faster than skytrain. I think it's set for user comfort, but I could be wrong.

[Chikinlittle]

Do you have the info from those other cities yet? I'm curious to see how they compare.

One thing I have to say about Toronto specifically, is the headway between trains at most times is terrible. Big long and wide subway cars for sure = massive capacity, but it feels like you always have to wait forever. One of the benefits of Vancouver's system so far is that you never have to wait more than a minute or two. Personally I think that's the key to a successful system. Waiting sucks and people hate it. Show up for transit, and have it arrive right away and it keeps people happy.

[twoNeurons]

Originally Posted by Chikinlittle

Do you have the info from those other cities yet? I'm curious to see how they compare.

One thing I have to say about Toronto specifically, is the headway between trains at most times is terrible. Big long and wide subway cars for sure = massive capacity, but it feels like you always have to wait forever. One of the benefits of Vancouver's system so far is that you never have to wait more than a minute or two. Personally I think that's the key to a successful system. Waiting sucks and people hate it. Show up for transit, and have it arrive right away and it keeps people happy.

It certainly helps with transfers, that's for sure.

Yes, I have the other cities too. I posted it all in a thread in General Transportation which talked about speeding up transit... but here's the info repeated:


Toronto :

LINE: Bloor-Danforth (East / West)
Length: 26.2km
Stations: 31
Avg. Dist: 845m (Avg distance between stations)
Travel time: 48 minutes (combined including airport leg)
Speed: 33km/h

LINE: SRT (Scarborough Rapid Transit)
Length: 6.4km
Stations: 6
Avg. Dist: 1067m
Travel time: 10 minutes (combined including airport leg)
Speed: 38km/h

LINE: Sheppard (Subway Extension)
Length: 5.5km
Stations: 5
Avg. Dist: 1100m
Travel time: 8 minutes
Speed: 41km/h

LINE: Yonge-Spadina (The "U" Line)
Length: 30.2km
Stations: 32
Avg. Dist: 944m
Travel time: 58 minutes
Speed: 31km/h

SYSTEM AVERAGE
Total Length: 68.3km
Stations: 74
Avg. Dist: 923m
Travel time: 124 minutes (Total of all lines)
Speed: 33km/h

Montreal :

LINE: Green
Length: 22.1km
Stations: 27
Avg. Dist: 819m
Travel time: 36 minutes
Speed: 37km/h

LINE: Orange
Length: 30km
Stations: 31
Avg. Dist: 968m
Travel time: 51 minutes
Speed: 35km/h

LINE: Yellow
Length: 4.25km
Stations: 3
Avg. Dist: 1417m
Travel time: 4 minutes
Speed: 64km/h

LINE: Blue
Length: 9.7km
Stations: 12
Avg. Dist: 808m
Travel time: 15 minutes
Speed: 39km/h


SYSTEM TOTALS/AVERAGE
Length: 66.1km
Stations: 73
Avg. Dist: 905m
Travel time: 106 minutes
Speed: 37km/h

Calgary :

LINE: NW+S
Length: 26.9km
Stations: 17
Avg. Dist: 1582m
Travel time: 45 minutes (approx.)
Speed: 36km/h


LINE: NE
Length: 12.6km
Stations: 8
Avg. Dist: 1575m
Travel time: 25 minutes (anecdotal)
Speed: 30km/h


SYTEM TOTALS/AVERAGE
Length: 39.5km (Downtown counted twice)
Stations: 25 (Some Stations counted twice)
Avg. Dist: 1580m
Travel time: 70 minutes
Speed: 34km/h





Note, stations serving two lines are treat as two stations. As are sections of one line that serves two lines. The exception of this is Vancouver, where I could get a travel time from Columbia for the Millennium Line (instead of Waterfront <--> VCC.

[twoNeurons]

Originally Posted by fever

When I was talking about regional rail the other day I did a similar analysis on the WCE line. Basically I performed a regression analysis on the schedule to tease out the typical operating speed and the total stopping time (i.e. the time it would take to add a stop, including decel, dwell, and accel). I ignored the Port Moody - Waterfront section because it's much slower than the rest of the line. The operating speed is 110 km/h and the stopping time is 3:45 s.

Interesting. I know using simple math, the fastest stretch is Mission to Port Haney and at 26km and 17minutes, it's travelling an average of 92km/h ONLY due to the Mission-Port Haney Stretch. You can see how much acceleration has to do with travel times, however, because if you take the whole line, it is only travelling an average of 57km/h, including all stops.

That's just over half its operational speed... similar to SkyTrain.

From Port Haney to Port Moody, it averages 41km/h.
SkyTrain averages 44km/h.

This is with stations 1500m apart (Along this stretch, WCE stations are 4km apart).

In FACT, you could technically run SkyTrain alongside the WCE route, have stations every 2 kilometres and have a travel time of about 90 minutes (compared to 72 minutes with WCE). Space out the stations like the WCE and you could probably get the Skytrain up to 50 or 60km/h on average.

The time it takes for those heavy diesel trains to accelerate and decelerate and stop really cuts into their average speed.


Saying all that, the Evergreen Line won't cannabalize the WCE. Why? From Port Moody to Waterfront, despite, as you mentioned, the train going slow along that stretch... STILL averages 53km/h (because there aren't any stops).

If it traveled the same speeds it does from Mission, the travel time would be cut from 25 minutes to 15 minutes along that final stretch.

Interesting, eh?

I've been on metros that accelerate faster than skytrain. I think it's set for user comfort, but I could be wrong.

You could be right... but I would be curious how big a part acceleration plays. I know that the biggest advantage of Mag-Lev, for example, over HSR is its ability to actually reach top speed much more quickly. Apart from the initial jolt leaving the station, how much of the acceleration is actually felt by the passengers.

[officedweller]

Originally Posted by tintinium

LINE: RAV
Length: 19km
Stations: 16
Avg. Dist: 1188m (Avg distance between stations)
Travel time: 32 minutes (combined including airport leg)
Speed: 36km/h

I'm not totally sure about the Canada Line Data, but it's considerably slower on average. I wonder if this is a product of more closely spaced stations and slower acceleration (I believe LIM is still faster to accelerate than the ROTEM trains). THOUGHTS?

Probably due to closer station spacing.
How do the numbers look when you calculate each branch separately?

[fever]

Metros usually accelerate at 1 to 1.3 m/s2 initially. The regression analysis gives no information on acceleration. I could do a similar analysis on skytrain with a few (preferably widely varying) station spacings and travel times.

If the wce used the bnsf line through the central valley instead of following burrard inlet, the route length from coquitlam central would increase from 25 km to 30 km and there would probably be three intermediate stations (Braid, Willingdon, Commercial) instead of one (Port Moody). The operating speed would be greater because the track is straighter, but still the trip time would increase from 25 minutes to about 31 minutes.

The reason for thinking about this route is that it would presumably be the route of a future south fraser regional line, and it would connect really well to the skytrain system at Braid and Commercial. It would leave the burrard inlet line free of passenger traffic, and from braid to willingdon the bnsf row is wide enough for dedicated passenger tracks. And with two regional lines sharing much of their track, overall track maintenance costs and the cost to electrify the lines would be much less.

[twoNeurons]

Originally Posted by officedweller

Probably due to closer station spacing.
How do the numbers look when you calculate each branch separately?

I don't have enough data... to be honest, I'm not sure about the total length and the times are estimates at this point. I just thought it was interesting that there was such a sizeable difference in overall speed.

The reason for thinking about this route is that it would presumably be the route of a future south fraser regional line, and it would connect really well to the skytrain system at Braid and Commercial. It would leave the burrard inlet line free of passenger traffic, and from braid to willingdon the bnsf row is wide enough for dedicated passenger tracks. And with two regional lines sharing much of their track, overall track maintenance costs and the cost to electrify the lines would be much less.

This would NOT make Port Moody residents happy. But then again, they will have SkyTrain already.

So you are basically proposing running WCE and a South Fraser Line along the same ROW in Burnaby/Vancouver. Interesting.

Where would you have it cross the Fraser?

[officedweller]

Sea Island Station Bridges to be erected:

September 16, 2008 YVR #023
Nighttime Lane Closures on Grant McConachie Way
and on North Service Road this Month

As part of overhead pedestrian walkway construction for Sea Island Centre Station, Canada Line crews will
be unloading and installing pre-cast beams and bridges over Grant McConachie Way and over North Service
Road during several evenings this month. This activity will result in temporary traffic diversions to and from
Vancouver International Airport and other commercial facilities during nighttime hours only, although two-way
traffic will be maintained at all times. Please note dates and times are subject to change.

September 17 - 18, 2008

From 8:00 p.m. to Midnight: Delivery and installation of pre-cast beams will result in single-lane alternating
traffic on North Service Road beginning at 8:00 p.m. on Wednesday, September 17, 2008 until approximately
midnight. Once this work is completed, traffic patterns on North Service Road will be restored and crews will
begin work over Grant McConachie Way.

From Midnight to 5:00 a.m.: Installation of pre-cast beams will result in traffic pattern changes to eastbound
and westbound motorists on Grant McConachie Way from approximately midnight until 5:00 a.m. on
Thursday, September 18, 2008. One westbound lane to Vancouver International Airport will be maintained at
all times. Eastbound motorists from Vancouver International Airport will be temporarily diverted to Miller Road
and re-directed back onto Grant McConachie Way west of Templeton Street.

Once this work is completed,
crews will restore Grant McConachie Way, which is anticipated to be prior to 5:00 a.m. Motorists are advised
to allocate extra time for travel.
Crews are scheduled to resume nighttime bridge installation activity on September 24 and 25, 2008.
Construction and traffic management details will be available prior to the start of work. This activity will
also result in traffic diversions on Grant McConachie Way and on North Service Road east of Vancouver
International Airport and west of Templeton Street. Two-way traffic to and from Vancouver International
Airport and to other facilities will be maintained during this activity, although traffic diversions will be in effect
during nighttime hours only. All airport parking facilities and buildings will remain accessible during this work.

For More Information Contact InTransitBC:
Jason Chan, Community Liaison Officer, at 604-605-4978
24-hour Construction Information Line: 604-608-0200
Canada Line Web Site: www.canadaline.ca

[fever]

Yeah. Port Moody will have skytrain soon enough.

I assume that the New Westminster rail bridge will be replaced before a South Fraser regional line would be a possibility. I'd like to see the replacement built to accommodate at least one passenger track. A crossing at Sapperton bar would be the most direct connection from the central valley line to the Southern line, and at WCE speeds and stopping times would connect Langley City to Waterfront through 6 intermediate stations in 53 minutes. Electrification and speeds typical of regional networks in other cities could cut that to 35 to 40 minutes. It would also increase capacity between Deltaport and Pitt Meadows, and more directly.

[twoNeurons]

How would the trains get to Waterfront though? Clark? That would add a bit of time but you'd be in the CBD. I wonder if it's better to do that rather than to Pacific Central.

Side point. Did anyone else notice that Google Maps has added a lot more detail when it comes to Rail in Vancouver (for example, the SkyTrain is now represented by a railway)

[fever]

There's a row by Glen, just west of Clark, that connects the flats to the port. It goes by some ghetto apartments and that gelato place. There are a couple crossings that would need to be grade-separated at Venables and Powell (Hastings and 1st Ave/Terminal are separated). Pacific Central would be cheaper but it's not within walking distance of the CBD, and I think that's important.

There is a plan to add a new concourse and platform to Waterfront. Remember the clamshell roof?

There's a hydro row that passes by King George station and then goes southwest to connect to the Southern railway. This could be a route for regional lines from Surrey Centre to Langley and White Rock, sharing much of their route with regional lines from Vancouver to Langley and White Rock.

[deasine]

Originally Posted by tintinium

How would the trains get to Waterfront though? Clark? That would add a bit of time but you'd be in the CBD. I wonder if it's better to do that rather than to Pacific Central.

Side point. Did anyone else notice that Google Maps has added a lot more detail when it comes to Rail in Vancouver (for example, the SkyTrain is now represented by a railway)

I noticed that. Pretty recent stuff. I wish they would've used something else other than rail... like a blue line or something >_< Now they just need to update the satellite images and add the StreetView they said they'll add a year ago.

[Gordon]

This may be a bit off topic but apparantely although the Canada Line Stations along Granvlle mall are pretty close to being filled in, it will still not be until late 09 before trolleys are back on the mall due to the Granville street re-design.

[amor de cosmos]

That Landcor study must have been in response to the BC government's transit plan:

One easy answer is transit-related real-estate development, as Hong Kong has shown.

It works something like this.

A public-transit rail route, whether SkyTrain or light rail, is put on the drawing board by government and key stations are selected. These areas of the city become designated high-density urban-residential development hubs, with highrise towers.

That rezoning generates a major spike in real-estate profits -- through more condos and commercial spaces to sell -- that could be retained by local government or TransLink, to pay for the new services. Or, more likely, under this provincial government, that valuable new urban density can be sold off to the private sector. For that, they would absorb some or all of the cost of building and running the new transit lines.

It's not clear exactly how quickly the B.C. government will adopt this real estate/public transit development from the other side of the Pacific. But bet on it happening soon. Transportation Minister Kevin Falcon has told the "professional board" that has recently taken over the day-to-day running of TransLink the agency must consider the Hong Kong model in any major new initiatives.

This Hong Kong approach may be agreeable to many of Metro Vancouver's mayors, too.

http://www.canada.com/vancouversun/news/story.html?id=20a14d89-b43c-4372-ae9f-ce2379e03262

edit: let me see if I understand the plan. The city designates certain lots around certain transit stations to be zoned for density, then either the municipal government or the local transit authority (or the provincial government, but that would be stupid) automatically gets a stake in whatever gets built on those lots? & of course they could either sell their stake, or keep it? if that's how it would work, then holy fcuk that's genius! in one blow, city could get increased density, increased tax revenue & the transit system would rake in a lot of cash, and likely have increased ridership!

[jlousa]

Apparently Vancouver City Centre station will be filled in by Oct 1st, not sure if that's will happen though but as per the city that is the story. Waterfront Station will be filled in December. Work starts on the Granville St redesign Nov 1 2008 and will be completed by Nov 10, 2009. I have a feeling they will finish early though as the penalties are huge.

[officedweller]

@ Vancouver City Centre Station, there's sand covering about half of the station box so far. The only part in the street that remains open excavation is at the southwest corner (for a vent?) near where the emergency exit will be - still bare rebar showing there.

Also, steel is being installed at the station house on the Sears plaza. No vertical columns yet, just horizontal members across the opening.
BTW - by the looks of it it would appear that the large concrete wall that would have been down the middle of the station house has been deleted and the station house simplified to just one doorway. The renderings had openings facing both Georgia and Granville.

[officedweller]

Originally Posted by amor de cosmos

edit: let me see if I understand the plan. The city designates certain lots around certain transit stations to be zoned for density, then either the municipal government or the local transit authority (or the provincial government, but that would be stupid) automatically gets a stake in whatever gets built on those lots? & of course they could either sell their stake, or keep it? if that's how it would work, then holy fcuk that's genius! in one blow, city could get increased density, increased tax revenue & the transit system would rake in a lot of cash, and likely have increased ridership!

The problem is that you are dealing with different governmental bodies.

Currently, if a municipality (city) rezones land (i.e. upzones) it may do so in exchange for amenities or even cash (i.e. in lieu of social housing). But those amenities or cash go to the municipality (city) - not Translink and not the Province.

The easiest way for Translink to cash in on a new line is to own the land adjacent to the major stations (i.e. former industrial lands) and then sell it off to developers. Developers would then be subject to municipal zoning requirements. Conceivably, Translink could seek rezoning prior to selling the land so as to increase the value of the land.

Translink could also be granted new property taxing powers that would apply to properties adjacent to new rapid transit lines, but I doubt that would fly politically (i.e. would it apply to both existing and new developments? existing and new rapid transit lines?).

[Gordon]

The infill work on the 2 Downtown stations is well underway but for some reason the TBM Exit Shaft is still is still open to the tunnell level. I wonder why this is taking so long to finish off?

[officedweller]

Probably an access point for equipment and materials.