Centre Mall -> The Centre on Barton

[raisethehammer]

Originally Posted by omro

Is there a life span for Centre Mall in it's new incarnation? Is it being built in a way that will be easy to demolish and redesign in 5, 10 or 20 years time if needs be?

The thing that shocks me the most, when I look at the mock ups, is the amount of space that is devoted to car parks. I'm surprised they didn't look into underground or multi level parking. It seems like a lot of wasted space that could have been used for landscaping and more retail.

I don't want to give you any last minute jitters about your big move, but WELCOME TO HAMILTON! Lol. Get used to lots of wasted space for cars.

How silly of me to want a streetwall where none previously existed. Please forgive my ignorance.

Omro - this place will be easy to demolish next year if necessary. I love the new term - disposablism.

Fastcars - no kidding about maximizing profits. They maximize profits by wasting public resources. Great business model in a fascist society where the government, media and corporations do what they please.

Fastcars - also, please stop making the baseless claim that Ottawa St will benefit from this. Ottawa St started climbing out of the doldrums YEARS ago. Any new customers in this part of town for the big boxes won't come to Ottawa St. It goes against everything they've come to expect in life - free parking spaces surrounding a bland warehouse. They don't know how to parallel park on a city street, let alone put money in a meter!! gasp!!
It's two completely different clientele. The only people frequenting both will be people in the area who already frequent both.

I can speak up and proudly say I don't remember the last time I shopped in a big box. One of the reasons I moved downtown was to get away from them. I knew we had a crappy city council, but I gave them too much credit - I really never thought that the big boxes would follow me and start surrounding downtown like the children of Israel around Jericho. It's only a matter of time before the trumpet sounds and downtown is completely destroyed.

[omro]

Originally Posted by raisethehammer

I don't want to give you any last minute jitters about your big move, but WELCOME TO HAMILTON! Lol. Get used to lots of wasted space for cars.

this place will be easy to demolish next year if necessary. I love the new term - disposablism.

No jitters, can't wait to move, just the date is the unknown now, but that's for the other thread ;-)

Well lots of wasted space for cars = lots of potential space for something better one day :-)

If it can be easily demolished next year then in a way, that's pretty cool, because it means the site can evolve again if needs be.

[markbarbera]

One could say equating the improved fortunes on Ottawa Street to the redevelopment of Centre Mall is just as outrageous as equating the improved fortunes on James Street to two-way conversions...

[adam]

I like the fact we have 2 sides that are divided because there is the opportunity to generate intelligent discussion. I am still waiting to hear valid arguments in favour of the other side, however.

I argue that any economic growth for Zellers, Canadian Tire, etc does not benefit the community. All it does is create more minimum wage jobs. So my question to the other side is this: How will this new mall will benefit the community? I am at a loss here and need help understanding this.

[Jon Dalton]

Originally Posted by fastcarsfreedom

Big-box "enthusiast" is such a misnomer.

Thats right: they're tolerated at best.

Let's remember Redcliffe is a 'for profit' company and does what's best for Redcliffe, not what's best for Hamilton or any other place. That's unfortunate, but the way of the world where we choose to live. Redcliffe put together a plan that works for them, their customers (retail stores) and what they suspect to be a large majority of the local population.

Excellent point. Lets not get angry at the developers who are simply choosing the most straightforward, fail-safe approach based on solid market research. Our historic commercial districts were built for the same reason.

We only have ourselves to blame. By and large, people want this. Not because it's good, because it's cheap and easy. It's just the architectural side of society's ever lowering standards. Just like cell phone cameras instead of film, just like mp3's instead of vinyl.

I don't set foot in box stores, ever.

[geoff's two cents]

Originally Posted by adam

So my question to the other side is this: How will this new mall will benefit the community? I am at a loss here and need help understanding this.

I'd like clarification on this as well. . .

[FairHamilton]

Originally Posted by adam

I argue that any economic growth for Zellers, Canadian Tire, etc does not benefit the community. All it does is create more minimum wage jobs. So my question to the other side is this: How will this new mall will benefit the community? I am at a loss here and need help understanding this.

Canadian Tire is owned by a dealer. Isn't that a form of local ownership that you want in a local retailer?

How will it benefit. It will draw spenders from further afield who'll drop money elsewhere the neighbourhood. I'd argue that it has a greater benefit because it's outward facing vs. Centre Mall which like other malls sucks people in and removes external stimuli.

[FairHamilton]

Originally Posted by DC83

^^ I shop at Big Box only b/c it's the only place Costco is.
If they had a urban-friendly type such as the one in Vancouver (4get exactly where it is), then I'd shop there.

We're crying out for a streetwall NOW b/c it hasn't had one in the last 50 years... and hardly anyone has walked that stretch in about 50 years. Where do they walk? On the South side of the street where they're able to browse (mind you it's pretty much KFC, Harvey's & a Banquet Hall).

We're crying for a streetwall b/c we're sick of developers holding the City hostage and getting away with whatever they want whether it benefits their patrons or not (ps streetfront facades get a lot more ppl looking at them than those than face inwards... you can't browse what you can't see).
There's such a thing called 'Corporate Responsibility'! Good companies partake in this. Obviously Redcliffe doesn't care about the community it's trying to 'improve'.

We're crying out for a streetwall b/c we want this City to feel like a CITY again, not a converted farmland.

We're crying out for a streetwall b/c we're sick of the same old crap that the City has force-fed us the last 50-or-so years... the car is NOT king, not anymore at least!

I for one will not be shopping here. I may have if one of the buses I was on stopped at the Transit Hub but ohhhhh wait there's no transit hub.

Then really you should be crying out to the city to increase the residential density. Because without a large number of local residents the car will remain king, and the most efficient way to serve them will be in this fashion.

Note, I'm a transit holder for both GO and HSR (formerly TTC) so I'm not a car lover by any stretch.

[markbarbera]

Adam, two words: Real Estate.

By the way, Zellers and Canadian Tire are not new entrants to this site. They have been at Centre Mall since at least 1993. Only as smaller incarnations.

And anyone who does not think the surrounding commercial areas will see a pick-up in occupancy, you are practising in self-denial. People who used to shop at Centre Mall before the redevelopment shopped at Zellers and Canadian Tire. After the redevelopment, they will continue to shop at Zellers and Canadian Tire. The redevelopment will offer the first new grocery store in central Hamilton (outside of a No Frills) in over 20 years, and the only truly decent one to be found anywhere between Dundurn, the lakeshore, the escarpment and Centennial. Demographics of weekly visitors to the site will increase as a result, resulting in an increase in activity in the entire area. And here's a news flash, with Zellers and Canadian Tire as the anchors, the core demographics of the new redevelopment will remain practically the same as its previous incarnation.

Yes, Zellers and Canadian Tire offer mostly minimum wage jobs. But that was all that was here before the redevelopment, so how has the site worsened? By creating even more minimum wage jobs here? In actuality, the grocery store will bring many jobs with wage rates double that of minimum wage, so your arguement doesn't really pan out here at all.

I am curious, what retail concept could have been here that would have created jobs that were not principally minimum wage?

[FairHamilton]

Originally Posted by raisethehammer

How silly of me to want a streetwall where none previously existed. Please forgive my ignorance.

Welcome to 2008. The area we are talking about has a relatively low density, therefore car travel must be taken into account.

Yell at the politicians who let the city go low density in the first place. The developer is only fitting the marketplace with a development that will work.

I can show you all kinds of horrible streetscape developments in Scarborough which have failed miserably because consumers are tied to their cars.

If you want to lower reliance on car then maybe the Green party is the party to vote for in the upcoming election. Oh yeah, they all suck too. Never mind......

[raisethehammer]

Originally Posted by markbarbera

One could say equating the improved fortunes on Ottawa Street to the redevelopment of Centre Mall is just as outrageous as equating the improved fortunes on James Street to two-way conversions...

c'mon Mark. You're more intelligent than that. I enjoy your posts.
Studies the world over repeatedly show that two-way streets improve the business prospects on urban streets.
Studies the world over also show big box stores negatively affect nearby businesses and business districts.

WM*Zellers*WM own research might not show this, but who really cares what their 'research' shows.

[fastcarsfreedom]

Firstly, I haven't been to Ottawa Street in years, I think the Avon was still a movie house the last time I was there. Always loved the neighborhood and hearing about it's heyday from my folks. Any comments I've made about Ottawa Street benefitting from the Centre's redevelopment was based completely on things I've read here--about businesses relocating and the Farmers Market moving. I guess I should stop putting so much stock into the positive things that I read that others have posted--silly me. Clearly the Centre would be a far greater benefit to the neighborhood as a greyfield--vacant and undeveloped.

adam--'intelligent' discussion on all sides is why we are here--however, you cannot say you welcome it while completely being dismissive of anything that you run counter-to opinion-wise all in one breath. I've said many many times that there were real opportunities to do the Centre redevelopment in a different way (see some of Victor Gruen's original designs)--nonetheless it seems my unwillingness to slug back the anti-box kool-aid makes me the same, suburban, car-obsessed drone that can't paralell park. Moreover, what do we say about big-box retailers who pay above miniumum wage, such as HD?

[raisethehammer]

we also can't have an intelligent discussion with people who sound like they work for the PR firm of the big boxers - "vacant and undeveloped greyfield".
As if that's the only two options - greyfield or big box. Come on. Get real.

[fastcarsfreedom]

RTH, in the past your enjoyment of mark's posts has generally coincided with my being thrown under the bus, so to speak. It disappoints me that you'd react in such a negative way because he's being an independent thinker--something you frequently advocate for.

Getting back to the site in question--it IS converted farmland ultimately, was home to a racetrack and then a mall--it has never had a streetwall of any kind and has always been relatively car-oriented, and in it's naisence, entirely suburban.

[omro]

I'm probably just being thick, but what exactly is being meant here in terms of a street wall?

My mind is conjuring an image of big wall against the street

[Millstone]

Originally Posted by omro

I'm probably just being thick, but what exactly is being meant here in terms of a street wall?

My mind is conjuring an image of big wall against the street

A solid line of shops that reach the sidewalk that are found in most urban cores.

[SteelTown]

^ Example the west side of James St South.

[omro]

Originally Posted by Millstone

A solid line of shops that reach the sidewalk that are found in most urban cores.

Oh, OK. That doesn't really excite me either.

It's a shame they didn't build something mega like Vancouver's Metrotown there. Then it would actually be a "Mall" :-)

Now that would have been exciting, three floors of quality stores, a multi screen cinema and an integrated LRT station.

[FairHamilton]

Originally Posted by Millstone

A solid line of shops that reach the sidewalk that are found in most urban cores.

Key words being 'urban cores', something Barton between Ottawa & Kenilworth having never been developed pre-automobile popularity isn't.

[FairHamilton]

While reading the Globe & Mail on the ride home tonight and I thought there might be a few here interested in this article.

http://www.reportonbusiness.com/servlet/...propertyreport0909/BNStory/Business/home

You'll like it (but hate it's not Centre Mall), but still no streetwall.