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  #1221  
Old Posted Sep 9, 2008, 5:31 AM
LilZebra LilZebra is offline
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This really is a bad plan, and it'll cost us more in the end.

We should just nix BRT and go with rail from the beginning.

I thought Katz was a smart businessman, but I guess I was wrong.

But Murray isn't any better.

They're both just listening to WT too much.
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  #1222  
Old Posted Sep 9, 2008, 6:01 AM
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Originally Posted by 1ajs View Post
how big was calgary when they built their first leg?
Calgary was built in 1983 .. and the city was ~600,000. It was a part of the Olympic infrastructure.
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  #1223  
Old Posted Sep 9, 2008, 6:03 AM
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i don't know, i'm pretty excited. i just saw the promo video on the freepress website. even though it will take like 10-15-20 years to expand and grow to city wide levels (and what we all imagine in our heads), and i will possibly have moved away to greener pastures by then, i'm still excited for winnipeg.
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  #1224  
Old Posted Sep 9, 2008, 6:04 AM
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Originally Posted by jimj_wpg View Post
This really is a bad plan, and it'll cost us more in the end.

We should just nix BRT and go with rail from the beginning.

I thought Katz was a smart businessman, but I guess I was wrong.

But Murray isn't any better.

They're both just listening to WT too much.
Keep in mind that Calgary just approved a new 8km LRT leg, which is projected to cost 850 Million ....

I am just happy that this BRT system isn't just a glorified diamond lane transit system.

Has anyone heard what the projected time will be to get to the UofM from downtown?

I believe the current express bus is around 20 minutes.
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  #1225  
Old Posted Sep 9, 2008, 7:35 AM
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You can check out bus times by doing a navigo trip plan.

http://winnipegtransit.com/NavigoPlus/TripPlanner.jsp

based on a trip from the Asper school of business ( which is right across the street from the bus stop at the u of m) to the university of Winnipeg, with a trip departing after 11:45 am, times came in with the following estimate of 32 min - 43 min , depending on the routes that you take.

Pick your own locations and see what you come up with.
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  #1226  
Old Posted Sep 9, 2008, 8:35 AM
thegreattait thegreattait is offline
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I'm sure many of you many have seen these websites before, but for those of you who haven't have a look on some difference between LRT and BRT.

http://www.lightrailnow.org/facts/fa_brt007.htm

http://www.lightrailnow.org/facts/fa_lrt02.htm

For those that want to know more about Ottawa's BRT check out:

http://www.lightrailnow.org/myths/m_otw001.htm

Last edited by thegreattait; Sep 9, 2008 at 9:18 AM.
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  #1227  
Old Posted Sep 9, 2008, 4:06 PM
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Originally Posted by jimj_wpg View Post
And this will clearly be the fastest portion of the "rapid transit" route. Surely you jest.



I don't want more development at The Forks. Leave the land alone already. Just get rid of the surface parking and turn the rest into a New York style Central Park.
Um, Central Park is surrounded by high density housing. Without it Central Park would be a field in the middle of nowhere.
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  #1228  
Old Posted Sep 9, 2008, 4:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Spocket View Post

Edit:
Needless floodway expansion ? You're kidding right ? How close do we have to get total disaster before it becomes necessary ?
C'mon man, a 1 in 700 year flood!?

If that ever does happen it will be because its the apocalypse.

My point being, is that our province has the money for LRT today, except that we choose to use those dollars to build a depression style mega project that is totally needless.

The current floodway measured up in '97 and it will do so again in the future.
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  #1229  
Old Posted Sep 9, 2008, 4:51 PM
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Bus corridor plan rolled out
$138-M first section to run from downtown to Jubilee


By: Bartley Kives | Winnipeg Free Press

Updated: September 9 at 12:40 AM CDT

Winnipeg is breaking from recent tradition by borrowing money to pay for a $327-million bus corridor -- and is banking on taxes from new apartment buildings to pay back the loan.

On Monday, Mayor Sam Katz and Premier Gary Doer ended months of speculation by announcing they plan to build a dedicated busway that will eventually connect downtown to the University of Manitoba.

The first leg of the corridor -- which comes with a $138-million price tag -- will begin at Queen Elizabeth Way near The Forks and then snake 3.6 kilometres southwest to Jubilee Avenue near Pembina Highway, crossing over Osborne Street on a new bridge and then tunnelling below CN Rail's Fort Rouge Yards along the way.

The city and province each plan to spend $55 million toward the first leg of the 7corridor, and Ottawa will contribute $28 million.

"I've always said rapid transit is part of the city's future," said Katz, who offered a lukewarm endorsement of bus rapid transit four years after he cancelled a $50-million BRT plan proposed by former mayor Glen Murray.

"I do not believe bus rapid transit will get the majority of people to leave their cars at home," said Katz, who has always maintained Murray's bus rapid transit plan lacked sufficient detail and would have cost taxpayers much more than $50 million if it went ahead.

On Monday, Doer vindicated Katz by praising Winnipeg Transit for scrutinizing every detail of the new busway and declaring its design -- which calls for complete isolation from existing roadways -- will allow for faster bus travel than would have been possible under the former proposal.

"It will be rapid and it will be separate," Doer said.

Katz said he now supports a busway because it will serve as a precursor to a light-rail system, the form of rapid transit he has always preferred.

The new busway has been designed to accommodate a future upgrade to light rail transit by making allowances for clearances, grades and turning angles required for railcars, Winnipeg Transit director Dave Wardrop said.

"Light rail is just around the corner," Katz proclaimed. But he conceded the city has no plans to build light rail in the near or distant future.

In fact, the city does not know how it will finance the $187-million second leg of the bus corridor, beyond the fact the province has agreed to match the city's contribution and Ottawa will be asked to contribute as well.

Katz said the cost of the second phase could be reduced if CN Rail agrees to sell or lease its underused Letellier line, which runs parallel to Pembina Highway.

CN is willing to talk to the city and province about the bus corridor, provided it does not disrupt rail operations, regional spokesman Kevin Franchuk said from Edmonton.

The first leg of the corridor will feature a commuter bike path, some form of park-and-ride facility and at least three busway stations, which Doer and Katz hope will stimulate residential and commercial development.

Newly introduced provincial legislation will allow property and education taxes from new highrise towers and retail stores within the bus-corridor zone to pay back the cash that must be borrowed to build the project.

City property director Phil Sheegl said the city hopes to see 700 new apartment or condo units eventually rise alongside each of 12 new busway stations on the entire corridor. Based on $1,000 of taxes per unit, that could generate $8.4 million a year for the city, he said.

The bus corridor announcement garnered a mixed reaction from opposition politicians and transit lobby groups.

Fort Rouge Coun. Jenny Gerbasi and St. Boniface Coun. Dan Vandal praised the bus corridor plan, although Vandal accused the mayor of flip-flopping on rapid transit.

Manitoba Liberal Leader Jon Gerrard called the policy weak and said Doer should have spent $75 million on a more ambitious rapid-transit system.

Paul Hesse of pro-bus Rapid Transition Coalition called the plan a good start, provided new corridors are built in other areas of Winnipeg. Jim Jaworski of pro-rail group TRU Winnipeg panned the new plan.

More details about financing for the plan will emerge in coming weeks, transit director Wardrop promised.

[email protected]


BUSWAY FINALLY ON THE WAY

Confirming months of speculation, Premier Gary Doer and Mayor Sam Katz announced their intention to build a $327-million bus corridor between downtown and the University of Manitoba.

Breaking with recent fiscal policy, the city plans to use debt financing to pay for its share of the first phase of the corridor. It will then backfill the loan with property taxes expected to flow from new residential and commercial developments near new busway stations.

Although it will be possible to convert the busway into a light rail corridor at some point in the future, the city has no actual plans to build a light rail transit system.

The city has already started planning to build phase 1 of the busway, but has no start date for phase 2 until it conducts negotiations with CN Rail and secures more federal financing.


PHASE 1

Cost: $138 million

Length: 3.6 kilometres

Route: From Queen Elizabeth Way (southern end of Main Street) to the intersection of Jubilee Avenue and Pembina Highway

Features: A new bridge over Osborne Street and a new tunnel below CN Rail's Fort Rouge Yards

Stations: Slated for Harkness Avenue, Osborne Street, Morley Avenue and possibly Jubilee

Financing: $55 million from the city, $55 million from the province and $28 million from Ottawa. The federal money is in the form of $17.5 million in transit funds announced last March, plus $10 million already granted to Winnipeg to purchase buses.

Construction: Could begin in spring 2009, pending council approval

Completion: Within three years


PHASE 2

Cost: $189 million

Length: six kilometres

Route: From Jubilee Avenue to Bison Drive

Features: New bridges over Pembina Highway and Bishop Grandin Boulevard.

Stations: Slated for Windermere Avenue, McGillivray Boulevard, Clarence Avenue, Chevrier Boulevard, Plaza Drive, Chancellor Drive, Markham Avenue and Bison Drive

Financing, construction and completion: Dependent on negotiations with CN Rail, which might be persuaded to sell or lease the underused Letellier Line that runs loosely parallel to Pembina Highway
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  #1230  
Old Posted Sep 9, 2008, 5:00 PM
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Forward for Transit

Updated: September 9 at 08:57 AM CDT | Winnipeg Free Press Editorial

On July 19, 1877, Winnipeg’s first experiment with rapid transit lasted just one day when a horse-drawn omnibus continually got stuck in the mud and failed to attract many passengers, who apparently found it faster and more convenient to ride their own horse. Other transit systems followed in its tracks, however, not because it was the environmentally right thing to do, but because it was necessary if the community was going to thrive and achieve its goal of becoming a first-class city.

Fast-forward to 2008 and Winnipeg has a transit system that also seems like it's stuck in the mud. Surveys show that people would like to take the bus, but for many citizens it takes too long for Transit Tom to get from point A to point B. As a result, the city's arteries are clogged with more and more cars, and there are fewer and fewer bus passengers, increasing the wear and tear on roads, bridges and the environment.

It's been obvious for many years -- the first truly rapid transit system was envisioned 40 years ago -- that the city needed to modernize its transportation infrastructure with inner and outer ring roads and a faster and more effective transit system to reduce the dominion of King Car.

It was starting to seem like the trend would never be reversed, but the city announced the first tentative steps Monday to fix the problem, albeit at a pace that isn't much faster than that first horse-drawn omnibus. The $138-million price tag for the first leg of the project, to be shared by the three levels of government, will create a dedicated busway from downtown to the area of Pembina Highway and Jubilee Avenue.

It's a small start, but the city had to start somewhere. The possible spinoff benefits are particularly exciting. It's believed that new housing and commercial developments will sprout along the route, and park-and-ride stations will allow motorists to leave their cars closer to home. The system apparently doesn't preclude an upgrade to light rail transit -- the Cadillac of rapid transit -- but that's unlikely to happen in the foreseeable future.

The city should also study the feasibility of adding private feeder buses that can pick people up in the suburbs and deliver them to transit stations, an option that might induce even more people to leave their cars in the garage.

Mayor Sam Katz was slow to get on board the rapid transit bandwagon, a delay that has increased the cost, but he deserves full credit for embracing the current initiative. Once the benefits of the system become apparent in three years, citizens in other parts of the city will begin demanding the same service. They, too, will want the new development and the ability to park their cars near a transit station, so they can take the bus to work.

When that trend takes off, there will be no stopping the drive for a full and complete rapid transit system across the city
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  #1231  
Old Posted Sep 9, 2008, 5:57 PM
thegreattait thegreattait is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Only The Lonely.. View Post
Forward for Transit

Updated: September 9 at 08:57 AM CDT | Winnipeg Free Press Editorial

On July 19, 1877, Winnipeg’s first experiment with rapid transit lasted just one day when a horse-drawn omnibus continually got stuck in the mud and failed to attract many passengers, who apparently found it faster and more convenient to ride their own horse. Other transit systems followed in its tracks, however, not because it was the environmentally right thing to do, but because it was necessary if the community was going to thrive and achieve its goal of becoming a first-class city.

Fast-forward to 2008 and Winnipeg has a transit system that also seems like it's stuck in the mud. Surveys show that people would like to take the bus, but for many citizens it takes too long for Transit Tom to get from point A to point B. As a result, the city's arteries are clogged with more and more cars, and there are fewer and fewer bus passengers, increasing the wear and tear on roads, bridges and the environment.

It's been obvious for many years -- the first truly rapid transit system was envisioned 40 years ago -- that the city needed to modernize its transportation infrastructure with inner and outer ring roads and a faster and more effective transit system to reduce the dominion of King Car.

It was starting to seem like the trend would never be reversed, but the city announced the first tentative steps Monday to fix the problem, albeit at a pace that isn't much faster than that first horse-drawn omnibus. The $138-million price tag for the first leg of the project, to be shared by the three levels of government, will create a dedicated busway from downtown to the area of Pembina Highway and Jubilee Avenue.

It's a small start, but the city had to start somewhere. The possible spinoff benefits are particularly exciting. It's believed that new housing and commercial developments will sprout along the route, and park-and-ride stations will allow motorists to leave their cars closer to home. The system apparently doesn't preclude an upgrade to light rail transit -- the Cadillac of rapid transit -- but that's unlikely to happen in the foreseeable future.

The city should also study the feasibility of adding private feeder buses that can pick people up in the suburbs and deliver them to transit stations, an option that might induce even more people to leave their cars in the garage.

Mayor Sam Katz was slow to get on board the rapid transit bandwagon, a delay that has increased the cost, but he deserves full credit for embracing the current initiative. Once the benefits of the system become apparent in three years, citizens in other parts of the city will begin demanding the same service. They, too, will want the new development and the ability to park their cars near a transit station, so they can take the bus to work.

When that trend takes off, there will be no stopping the drive for a full and complete rapid transit system across the city

Hmm LRT is the Cadillac,,, I'm pretty sure that title goes to Heavy Rail Subway / Metro systems.

.... or is that the Bentley
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  #1232  
Old Posted Sep 9, 2008, 6:21 PM
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Winnipeg housing project expands after rapid-transit plans unveiled

Last Updated: Tuesday, September 9, 2008 | 1:03 PM CT
CBC News
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/manitoba/story/2008/09/09/transit-development.html

Andrew Marquess stands with maps of the land he plans to develop around the Fort Rouge rail yards in Winnipeg. Andrew Marquess stands with maps of the land he plans to develop around the Fort Rouge rail yards in Winnipeg.

Winnipeg's Lord Roberts neighbourhood is set to undergo major redevelopment following the city's $138 million rapid-transit announcement on Monday.

Developer Andrew Marquess bought four hectares of scrubland around the Fort Rouge rail yards eight months ago, and planned to build between 1,000 and 1,200 housing units on it.

Now that the city has unveiled plans to run a rapid-transit corridor right past the land, Marquess says he'll expand his plans for the area.

"For the townhouse portion of it, the transit was a nice-to-have, but … it allows us potentially to put some more density on there in the form of doing an extra concrete highrise tower, or maybe two," he said.

Jenny Gerbasi, city councillor for the area, said the person who previously owned the land decided to sell after the former mayor Glen Murray's rapid-transit plan was shelved nearly three years ago.

"It's very good news for urban infill development," she said.
Unaware of transit plans

Marquess said he is not receiving any grants from the city for the project, and he did not know the rapid-transit plan was going ahead when he purchased the land.

"It's an interesting piece of land in that, you know, it's in a great neighbourhood and it's really close to a lot of amenities. So for us, we were just fortunate to get that large of chunk of land just in its location," he said.

"The transit corridor is just something that's a really unique opportunity, to build something there that you could incorporate the transit in with your development."

He still has to consult with the neighbours and work his way through the city's planning process before construction can begin. He hopes to see shovels in the ground as early as next summer, starting at a dead-end on Morley Avenue.

"I would see us moving from north to south," he said. "I would see us doing the townhouses first, and then I would see us doing the concrete towers, which would probably be located on the south end of the site."

The city and the province announced Monday the agreement to build a $138-million rapid transit corridor connecting the city's downtown with the Fort Rouge neighbourhood.

The three-year project will build a dedicated bus lane from The Forks in downtown Winnipeg to Jubilee Avenue; maps on display at Monday's announcement showed potential stops on the bus line near Morley Avenue, Confusion Corner, Harkness Avenue and Union Station.

A second stage of the project would run from Jubilee Avenue to Bison Drive, near the University of Manitoba, officials said, although they offered no details about when that might happen or how it would be financed.
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  #1233  
Old Posted Sep 9, 2008, 6:49 PM
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People will most likely have some criticisms towards Andrew Marquess and his style of projects, but you can't question his recent track record of getting things done - Hargrave Tower conversion, Apartments off McPhillips and Troy and now the old Sheraton conversion. He has come through with what he has said he would do.
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  #1234  
Old Posted Sep 9, 2008, 7:26 PM
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Originally Posted by jimj_wpg View Post
How long into the future will LRT be delayed after Phase I is built? 5, 10, 15, 20...25 years like with the Ottawa Trasitway conversion to an LRT?
You don't know the half of it... it will probably be about 35 years after the Transitway was first built before it gets converted to LRT since we're planning to spend the next 10 years dicking around figuring out how to build a tunnel.

Unfortunately, conversion gets put off by statements like this from the various consultants:

"A busway can be designed to LRT geometric criteria, - and even LRT load requirements - but the in-place investment in the busway guideway is not something easily disposed of - and the BRT argument for equivalent capacity is hard to refute."
This was from our 2003 Rapid Transit Expansion Study (aka RTES). That tidbit was written the year before our transit authority started to curtail the number of routes operating because it was causing platform congestion. So much for equivalent capacity.

In other words, the BRT engineers will see to it that once you have BRT you can't easily get rid of it, even if it is sold to you on the basis of being a step towards LRT. They will fight you to the bitter end, even once the system is clogged up buses. It's a nice idea to build BRT and then upgrade to LRT, but the political reality is that it will only happen under extraordinary circumstances.
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  #1235  
Old Posted Sep 9, 2008, 7:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Biff View Post
People will most likely have some criticisms towards Andrew Marquess and his style of projects, but you can't question his recent track record of getting things done - Hargrave Tower conversion, Apartments off McPhillips and Troy and now the old Sheraton conversion. He has come through with what he has said he would do.
Hopefully, it isn't another Bergenisk commie-block.

It does sound promising so far..
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  #1236  
Old Posted Sep 9, 2008, 7:29 PM
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Then there's this issue of quality. Okay, that one strikes me as a red herring because anybody who has ever taken a ride on BRT knows that it's hardly the same as simply riding the bus on some random route. You're speeding along, there aren't any stop lights, there's no lurching every couple of blocks on average,
Ever been in an articulated bus going at 80 km/h or faster on a bumpy road? That's uncomfortable. And let there be no doubt - buses degrade the quality of the asphalt very quickly in a freeze-thaw climate, so after a few years the ride is miserable.

Quote:
When I've spoken of BRT I've always assumed we were talking about a system similar to Ottawa's Busway and that system is just as good as LRT in my opinion (or , at least, the difference is negligible in my view)
If

http://www.flickr.com/photos/ottawabusgallery/2312819837/

you

http://www.flickr.com/photos/ottawabusgallery/2244012157/

say

http://www.flickr.com/photos/ottawabusgallery/2539619824/

so.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/ottawabusgallery/2538802663/


On a side note, I see absolutely no point whatsover in building BRT in rail corridors, which is what I read the second phase will be using. The last time we did that around here we've had to spend money twice: to relocate the railway (i.e. rebuild it) and then build the busway, whereas with light rail we could have just added tracks to the corridor. La Ville de Gatineau (across the Ottawa River in Quebec) will be building BRT in a rail corridor and sure enough they're going to rebuild the railway as well. It's just the height of stupidity to build BRT in a rail corridor because you end up doing half of what you need to do to build LRT anyway. It's also easy to build LRT in a rail corridor because you can deliver the supplies by railway construction train rather than trucking it all in.
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  #1237  
Old Posted Sep 9, 2008, 7:32 PM
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Crap! That's a lot of congestion.
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  #1238  
Old Posted Sep 9, 2008, 8:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Only The Lonely.. View Post


Crap! That's a lot of congestion.
Yeah, and one of the chief reasons Ottawa's use of busways to move people around will slowly but surely be replaced by rail in the coming years. (they are still going to use busways or diamond lanes for suburb to suburb travel)

The difficulty of busways is once they get congested, there isn't an easy way to relieve it. For LRT, you can always buy rolling stock with less seats, more floor area, have a continuous floor instead of individual cars etc. to increase capacity. For the busways once you hit the limit, your pretty much hooped.
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  #1239  
Old Posted Sep 9, 2008, 9:05 PM
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Winnipeg will consult with Ottawa

Come on guys. give the designers/engineers credit. They will look at the mistakes Ottawa made and try to avoid them. Ottawa has a lot of experience in "what to do and not to do"
Winnipeg can thank Ottawa for "pardon the pun" paving the way... It will be designed for LRT period! Most of Ottawa's BRT were not thus the constant debate there...
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  #1240  
Old Posted Sep 9, 2008, 9:07 PM
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That set: was there a specific reason for the buses backing up that day, or a regular occurrence?

Love your photo sets BTW.
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