Centre Mall -> The Centre on Barton

[adam]

@ Millhouse: how can an opinion suck? Does it suck if it doesn't match your own? If this isn't the case, please enlighten me.

In my opinion, big box store development does all of the following:

- creates minimum wage jobs that are nearly impossible to live off
- promotes the sale of low quality products from overseas
- makes it impossible for the "little guy" to open up shop or compete at all
- ultimately takes away consumer options
- makes a few people at the top rich
- hurts the area in the long run and is definitely not a sustainable business practice

And I'll admit that this opinion does suck, but I can't seem to come to any other reasonable conclusions.. any takers?

[flar]

I'm not going to delete posts here, but please try not to make things personal in your replies. All opinions are welcomed, everyone is entitled to his or her opinion, respectfully disagree if you have no arguments to make about the topic.




(This message will self destruct in a couple days)

[raisethehammer]

no probs.
the new Centre Mall SUCKS!

[adam]

Here's something insidious about the way big box stores operate you might not know. I've heard this first hand from 2 manufacturing reps who have sat down with the big box store reps:

When big box stores first arrived on the scene, because of big inventories, they buy in very large quantities, and therefore their price was the lowest in town. They did this to help push out competition, all the little guys eventually had to close up shop or amalgamate because they couldn't compete on their own.

Previously, there were other distributors to sell products to (smaller stores the consumer could shop at), but now with no competition in town, the big box store sits down in negotiations with the manufacturer and names a price (often much lower than expected), and if the manufacturer doesn't accept it, the big box store rep simply leaves and says call me when you come to your senses!

This leaves the manufacturer in a bad position: either sell the items to the big box store at a reduced price, or keep the product... with no one else in town to sell the product to! Obviously most manufacturers cave in and match the obscenely low price.

This benefits the consumer for the first little while because they are getting the same product they did before but at a reduced consumer price... that is, until the manufacturer has time to assess their losses and starts changing the manufacturing process. This involves cutting corners by using inferior raw materials and/or changing the design of the product so it is cheaper to make.

Now at the same time, remember the big box store has chased out the competition, so they no longer have to maintain such a low selling price. They slowly start ratcheting up their selling price - and at the same time the manufactured product becomes more and more inferior. Of course, even though they are ratcheting up their price with the consumer, the negotiated price with the manufacturer does not go up.


So we have people working for minimum wage or near minimum wage in the stores, and consumers paying an ever increasing price for a product with an ever decreasing quality ... while all this is going on behind the scenes. Who benefits? The big box store, and nobody else.

[raisethehammer]

that's a pretty good overview.
I think most people are aware of their operating model however. That's been the model since the start. The profit margins are incredible considering most of the junk is made in sweatshops around the world.

[adam]

The manufacturing people I know make equipment in the US and Canada, not sweatshops and its used in industrial applications. The Home Depot started carrying their products and the above model followed. I guess sweatshops are an even more sad example of why your stomach should turn every time you enter one of these places.

[fastcarsfreedom]

The supposed lack of competition in retail is a myth. Secondly, when competitors did close (large and small) it was the result of weaknesses in their business which left them vulnerable to competition. In the face of intense competition there have been countless examples of large and small operators who have thrived. Price is one of many determining factors when it comes to the decisions consumers make when spending their dollars.

Yet another myth is that these big-box retailers will suddenly "ratchet" up their prices when and if they are the only operator left in a particularly town/neighborhood. In fact, in the "good old days" shoppers in many smaller towns and neighborhoods paid higher prices due to monopolies and duopolies which often existed among retailers. In instances where a particular big-box retailer is the only player in a particular town, said retailer (which I will not name for fear of reprisal) has never engaged in the practice of increasing prices due to a lack of competition.

Don't like it? Don't shop there.

[Millstone]

Originally Posted by adam

@ Millhouse: how can an opinion suck? Does it suck if it doesn't match your own? If this isn't the case, please enlighten me.

In my opinion, big box store development does all of the following:

- creates minimum wage jobs that are nearly impossible to live off
- promotes the sale of low quality products from overseas
- makes it impossible for the "little guy" to open up shop or compete at all
- ultimately takes away consumer options
- makes a few people at the top rich
- hurts the area in the long run and is definitely not a sustainable business practice

And I'll admit that this opinion does suck, but I can't seem to come to any other reasonable conclusions.. any takers?

I don't know who Millhouse is, but I find your opinion about big box development sucks. Sam Walton's first store started out as a little five and dime; he just had that drive to make it become huge. If you don't want to work or shop there, or can't compete properly with the businesses with yours, go somewhere else. You still have a lot of choice!

[fastcarsfreedom]

Millstone--I think Millhouse is the blue-haired kid on The Simpsons. You may well have read Made In America, which was the autobiography Walton completed shortly before he died--it's quite a fascinating read. Mostly it sheds light on how the "good old days" of retailing is really a nostalgic myth. There is a great deal of info there on how the old variety/five & dime chains basically locked up the country and most small towns and provided minimal service with significant retail markups on goods. In no way am I endorsing or criticising WMTs business practices for fear of being accused to trolling--however, perhaps the most fascinating question he raises is to ask why exactly a specific type of business (in this case the intangible "mom and pop" stores) ought to be subject to some sort of special protection from competition--if their business model no longer meets the needs of consumers. There's also a lot of info in there on Kmart--which generally gets off unscathed in the media storm, but is ultimately responsible for driving out the vast majority of competition which existed in the 1970s/80s.

[adam]

I'm bailing on this conversation because I have nothing else to offer. One last thing, here's a video called High Cost of Low Prices to watch that I hope changes your opinion on the big box stores. I hope that after viewing it, you will see that the big box store model, even if you like it, is not an economically sustainable one.

[raisethehammer]

Lol...it's so funny to read the same old tired and inaccurate statements like "the good old days are really a myth" and "weakness in business" is what causes all the closures after a big boxer shows up.
funny how that weakness was never a weakness until the sweatshoppers showed up.
Funny how the very few people making billions off the worlds slave labour like to disregard the 'good old days' as myth.

Feel free to think for yourselves instead of regurgitating crap from the talking heads.

[DC83]

Originally Posted by Millstone

I don't know who Millhouse is,

hehehehehe

[fastcarsfreedom]

I pride myself on thinking for myself--you may have noticed in the context of this Forum that I'm quite adept at it. Again, just because your opinion differs from mine doesn't make my statements any more "tired and old" than yours. The High Cost of Low Prices is as biased a "documentary" as anything a corporation would produce in promotion of itself. Moreover the supposed "wave" of closures that has followed the big box phenomenon is greatly exaggerated. The majority of "casualties" have been other corporate entities with no closer a connection to "communities" than WMT or HD or anyone else.

Again, don't shop there. Encourage your neighbors to do the same--and dont assume that those who take an opposing view are misinformed or drones repeating some tired mantra...because Noam Chomsky sounds a lot more tired to me than Ayn Rand.

[matt602]

thread needs more milhouse.

[adam]

Millstone, I apologize for calling you Millhouse... it wasn't intentional, I can't keep these online handles straight. But on the upside, Millhouse is a pretty cool guy! Now shouldn't you be buying crap that's gonna break in 2 seconds at the local walmart? Hurry! They just got a new shipment!!

[adam]

Originally Posted by fastcarsfreedom

I pride myself on thinking for myself--you may have noticed in the context of this Forum that I'm quite adept at it. Again, just because your opinion differs from mine doesn't make my statements any more "tired and old" than yours. The High Cost of Low Prices is as biased a "documentary" as anything a corporation would produce in promotion of itself. Moreover the supposed "wave" of closures that has followed the big box phenomenon is greatly exaggerated. The majority of "casualties" have been other corporate entities with no closer a connection to "communities" than WMT or HD or anyone else.

Again, don't shop there. Encourage your neighbors to do the same--and dont assume that those who take an opposing view are misinformed or drones repeating some tired mantra...because Noam Chomsky sounds a lot more tired to me than Ayn Rand.

I guess I'm still participating in this thread..
There are A LOT of people working minimum or very low wage jobs who can't afford to shop anywhere else.. Its a vicious circle but you have to take yourself out of your comfort zone and put yourself in their shoes to see the reality of it.

[LikeHamilton]

Back on topic

Here are some pictures I took a week ago. As of today most of the steel is up along Barton Street for all of the footings that where poured. It looks like they are getting ready to build the foundations for the Canadian Tire store and the strip plaza between Zellers and CT store. Zeller's is having a job fair on September 13th.









I thought this building was going to be a liquor store but it is a two-story building.

[Millstone]

Originally Posted by raisethehammer

Feel free to think for yourselves instead of regurgitating crap from the talking heads.

I think you nailed it on the head here buddy.

[Millstone]

Originally Posted by fastcarsfreedom

Millstone--I think Millhouse is the blue-haired kid on The Simpsons. You may well have read Made In America, which was the autobiography Walton completed shortly before he died--it's quite a fascinating read. Mostly it sheds light on how the "good old days" of retailing is really a nostalgic myth. There is a great deal of info there on how the old variety/five & dime chains basically locked up the country and most small towns and provided minimal service with significant retail markups on goods. In no way am I endorsing or criticising WMTs business practices for fear of being accused to trolling--however, perhaps the most fascinating question he raises is to ask why exactly a specific type of business (in this case the intangible "mom and pop" stores) ought to be subject to some sort of special protection from competition--if their business model no longer meets the needs of consumers. There's also a lot of info in there on Kmart--which generally gets off unscathed in the media storm, but is ultimately responsible for driving out the vast majority of competition which existed in the 1970s/80s.

I will look out for the book. I have seen a few documentaries on Wal-Mart, some neutral, some bad. Most of the bad are "rah rah rah I'm a cashier at Wal-Mart making $8/hr and my whole family is dying why can't Wal-Mart cure all of this they are evil they suck rah rah rah".

Simply becoming educated to not have to work (as a cashier) at Wal-Mart generally cures that problem, no?

[raisethehammer]

I drove down Barton the other day and almost passed out.
It's just as bad as driving on the 403 through ancaster. Exact same view - back of a bunch of garbage one-storey box stores.
What a travesty. Could have been a great streetwall.